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I agree with Harrab (though for perhaps a different reason). I think that once an allied unit joins an IG unit (or vice versa), it is neither an allied unit nor is it an IG unit, and thus by the FAQ cannot have orders issued to it. I think it works with the RaW as well (as there really isn't any RaW to cover this anyway).

Lord Harrab wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Lord Harrab wrote:I think it should be treated the same way that having a character without a certain skill joining a unit with that skill and neither being able to use it's benefits.

Exapmle: Eldar Rangers can Infiltrate, but if a Farseer is attached to the squad before the game starts, they cannot infiltrate.

Of course they can't. To attach a Farseer you have to Deploy him within 2". As he doesn't have infiltrate, this means the Rangers would have been deployed before the Deploy Infiltrators step, at which point they are deployed so clearly cannot infiltrate.

Owch. That seemed rather snappish.

Gah, sorry I was meant to add a at the end. I wasn't trying to be rude

Gwar! wrote:

Lord Harrab wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Lord Harrab wrote:I think it should be treated the same way that having a character without a certain skill joining a unit with that skill and neither being able to use it's benefits.

Exapmle: Eldar Rangers can Infiltrate, but if a Farseer is attached to the squad before the game starts, they cannot infiltrate.

Of course they can't. To attach a Farseer you have to Deploy him within 2". As he doesn't have infiltrate, this means the Rangers would have been deployed before the Deploy Infiltrators step, at which point they are deployed so clearly cannot infiltrate.

Owch. That seemed rather snappish.

Gah, sorry I was meant to add a at the end. I wasn't trying to be rude

That's ok, I haven't played in a long time, so perhaps the rules for deploying Units and characters had changed.

Kitzz wrote:I actually agree with the issues you raised wholeheartedly. I have no idea why you quoted my post, however.

It makes me imagine that there's a discussion going on.

While I guess kinda harsh, the no ICs allowed way of doing it solves the rules problem and creates no new ones.

I don't usually consider any single source of information to be "Law" in the sense that it overrides everything else regardless. FAQs can sometimes be useful for clarifications but in this case, I would disagree with the FAQ. The ordered allies issue is "justified", in that SoB/GK/Inq

...would have some serious objections with a lowly Imperial Guardsman telling them what to do!

, yet in a previous "clarification", it states:

Q. Can Platoon Commanders give orders to Company Commanders?
A. It may seem a bit odd at first, but yes. This represents the junior officer advising his superior, beckoning him to move to a better vantage point or else warning him of an imminent barrage… Whatever the reason, the ‘order’ will certainly be prefaced with ‘Sir, begging your pardon but…’ (emphasis added by me)

So we've been told that orders may in fact be "advice". I don't know about you, but if Lord Castellan "Cadia's greatest living commander" Creed suggests that I might want to duck, then I'm probably going to give it serious consideration.

Obviously, this is just my interpretation of the FAQ, but I would like to add, that the actual wording of the Orders rule states that the officer must "...select a single friendly non-vehicle unit within his command radius...". The ability to "receive" orders isn't a special rule that any unit has, just the ability to give them, so there's no "special rule" to be lost. I would think that any unit in the same FOC would be considered "friendly", so IMO the CO could "give orders" to an allied IC as both an individual and as part of a unit. If GW wanted to change the wording from "friendly" to "Imperial Guard" that should have been in the errata section of the FAQ. Probably with a definition of "Imperial Guard" just to prevent future issues.

jinshiryuu wrote:I don't know about you, but if Lord Castellan "Cadia's greatest living commander" Creed suggests that I might want to duck, then I'm probably going to give it serious consideration.

And if I am Brother-Captain Stern of the Order of the Grey Knights, one who has a God-Emperor damned Lord of Change on a PERSONAL vendetta against me, I'll tell Creed to stick it up his arse.

Gwar! wrote:

jinshiryuu wrote:I don't know about you, but if Lord Castellan "Cadia's greatest living commander" Creed suggests that I might want to duck, then I'm probably going to give it serious consideration.

And if I am Brother-Captain Stern of the Order of the Grey Knights, one who has a God-Emperor damned Lord of Change on a PERSONAL vendetta against me, I'll tell Creed to stick it up his arse.

Should that disallow Creed from using his Tactical Genius rule on allied units as well?

jinshiryuu wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

jinshiryuu wrote:I don't know about you, but if Lord Castellan "Cadia's greatest living commander" Creed suggests that I might want to duck, then I'm probably going to give it serious consideration.

And if I am Brother-Captain Stern of the Order of the Grey Knights, one who has a God-Emperor damned Lord of Change on a PERSONAL vendetta against me, I'll tell Creed to stick it up his arse.

Should that disallow Creed from using his Tactical Genius rule on allied units as well?

Creed may be all that and a bag of chips, but he is still Imperial Guard. Even the most lowly member of the Ordo Hereticus/Malleus outranks him by about 97 levels.

Gwar! wrote:God-Emperor

Don't you mean the Allfather?

RustyKnight wrote:

Gwar! wrote:God-Emperor

Don't you mean the Allfather?

"Allfather" is a term used by the Adeptus Astrates of the Space Wolves Chapter (though some Imperial Scholars prefer to refer to them as the last remaining Legion, but they are extra heretical) as a term of endearment towards the Immortal God-Emperor. This is, of course, contrary to the Imperial Cult and thus extra extra heretical, but the Adeptus Astrates have always been dismissive of the Truth of the Imperial Cult, the Space Wolves Doubly so. However, the Space Wolves have proven themselves loyal to Him for over ten millenia, so it is official policy that they are to be viewed with disdain, but accepted as the lesser of two Evils.

Gwar! wrote:Creed may be all that and a bag of chips, but he is still Imperial Guard. Even the most lowly member of the Ordo Hereticus/Malleus outranks him by about 97 levels.

True, I'm just saying if he suggests you might want to duck that incoming las-cannon shot, it's worth considering.

Cowardice is treason, citizen.

The Emperor protects.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Cowardice is treason, citizen.
The Emperor protects.

Of course he does. He put that nice, thick ferrocrete wall there just for that purpose.

As the great CIAPHAS CAIN HERO OF THE IMPERIUM may or may not have once said "The Emperor Protects... the bastard who got behind the wall before the other guy."

An IC and a squad do not 'merge', and the squad does not join the IC.

The rules state that the IC joins the squad. Thus it is still an IG unit, with an IC that has joined them.

This is the same line of reasoning that says when you Fortune a unit, and the IC leaves, the IC is no longer fortuned, but the unit is.

I would say that two IC's do merge, since they 'join each other', and thus would not be a legal target for Orders.

In the case of guard squad with joined I.C., I say the squad benefits from the orders but not the character. (Use different color dice to differentiate) Though I don't know how well this would work with all orders.

As far as the the other way around I'm not entirely sure why you'd issue orders to a lone I.C. but then again I don't play guard so the I.C.gets the benefit but not the unit, again use different dice to differentiate.

Independant Characters joining and leaving units.
Page 48, Special Rules.

"When an independant character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in 'stubborn special rule_, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

I don't have the IG codex but my understanding is those Order are like a Special Rule.
Since it can't be applied to non-IG models, whether it's a non-IG character in a IG squad or the other way around, it can't apply to only part of the unit, therefore it can't apply at all.

InquisitorBob wrote:Independant Characters joining and leaving units.
Page 48, Special Rules.
"When an independant character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in 'stubborn special rule_, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."
I don't have the IG codex but my understanding is those Order are like a Special Rule.
Since it can't be applied to non-IG models, whether it's a non-IG character in a IG squad or the other way around, it can't apply to only part of the unit, therefore it can't apply at all.

In a sense, yes, but in my opinion I don't see that this particular argument should apply here. I'll try to explain why. First, the special rule is listed under the officer's unit, not the units "receiving" orders. It's not even a "unit" ability, it's specific to the model within the unit designated as the "officer". So when "joining" or "joined by", the Orders ability is a special rule that is neither given or lost. If Creed is joined by an Inquisitor, he can still issue orders. And by the text in the IG book, orders can be given to any friendly, non-vehicle unit. No unit has a special rule to "receive" orders, so there is no special rule to be lost. It could possibly be argued that such a special rule is an "army-wide" rule, such as the SM ATSKNF rule. What happens if an Inquisitor joins a SM unit and they are forced to fall back? The IC has to obey unit coherency and can only leave the unit in the movement phase, and not if they are falling back. The SM rule mentions it applies when servitors are part of the unit, but nothing else is mentioned. Does the SM unit lose its ATSKNF or does the Inq "gain" it?
At the same time, I don't want to wander off into a web of "precedent" arguments. The rule in the IG book states that it is an ability of "officers" to give orders, and orders may be given to any friendly, non-vehicle unit. The reason the FAQ lists for non-IG units not accepting orders, is that they won't "take" them from "lowly guardsman", but I feel the contradicted themselves when they stated that "junior" officers could give orders to "senior" officers as "suggestions. Admittedly, it's just my opinion, but I think they got it wrong one way or another there. I also would consider a "friendly" unit to be anything in the same FOC as the officer giving the orders (if someone knows of an official GW definition for friendly that invalidates that, please let me know).
In all honesty, I think the real problem here is someone at GW didn't take allies into account when they wrote this book. They were careful to give Marbo a special rule about not taking orders, but not even a parenthetical clarification for allies one way or another. And considering the FAQ answer to the question about allies is phrased, "I think...", I seriously doubt that it was discussed afterwards by the folks who write the rules either. Sounds more like some CS rep (or possibly Robin Cruddace) chiming in with his $0.02 on the subject.

All of this, of course, just being my $0.02 on the subject.