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Aduro wrote:My pet peeve at a TO is that everyone waits till the tournament is over before the tell me about some kind of shenanigans their opponent was pulling. What do they expect me to do about it then?

+1 to that, or better yet, not say anything to the TO but post video on-line to complain to everyone...except the TO.

Aduro wrote:
My pet peeve at a TO is that everyone waits till the tournament is over before the tell me about some kind of shenanigans their opponent was pulling. What do they expect me to do about it then?

Unfortunately, often enough, people don't know their opponent was pulling anything until the game is over, and they're talking about what happened with their friends. Their friends say, "oh, he didn't take a test for that", and then you go and check the codex, and you realize, hey, my opponent didn't actually follow the rules for his army.

I don't think they expect you to do anything about it... maybe be aware of it next time?

When we were judging the Adepticon Team Tournament, we have a couple cases where, before game four, we were informed of some irregularity in a list. A common question among the judges was, "why didn't any of their opponents let us know earlier?" But, most players are going to believe that, since you have to turn a list in when you register, that whatever their opponent presents is legal, and probably not question it. I'm not at all surprised that no one mentioned these things to us, simply because they would assume their opponent's lists had been checked (even though, in reality, there's no way that we're going to check 440 army lists for legality during the event).

It's the same for most rules issues. I know I give most opponents the benefit of the doubt, and don't want to waste time questioning their every action, even if I'm not positive how their codex works. Sometimes, you get bitten and find that they slipped one past you, but usually my opponents are the honest people I expect them to be. (I almost always look up stuff I didn't know after an event.)

If you don't check the lists whats the point of turning it in?

They can be checked later, or if issues arise. It's simply unrealistic to think that 440 army lists can be checked during the course of a tournament, with all the other duties that need to be performed at the same time.

bluedevil27 wrote:While I agree this is the best solution, I think a lot of people refrain from doing so because accusations of cheating will often cause the accused to mark you down on sportsmanship (assuming there is sportsmanship scoring at the event). This has been the case for me on more than one occasion.

This kind of thing is why when I do use Sportsmanship Scores, it's a simple Pass/Fail, with the expectation that everyone will pass. If you fail someone on their Sportsmanship, you better be able to defend that position to me with a definitive reason why they deserve to. I had a couple complaints about one or two people in my last events, so I may have to reinstitute that policy.

For lists, I do collect a copy of everyone's list, but I certainly can't go thru them all right there and check them. I make people bring one that they've already made. This keeps people from tailoring a list based on who else showed up, and ones made in advance are less likely to have the kind of math mistakes you get from last minute ones. Plus I have a record if an issue comes up and I need to check it. I also make people have a copy of their list for their opponent to look at, and I strongly encourage people to do so, otherwise even if they turned in a fully legal list, what's to stop them from using an extra unit or upgrade during the game anyway?

I can't be everywhere at once, and people tend to stop cheating when I'm at their table, so it's really up to the players to catch 90% of the shenanigans people pull and report it as such. If something seems questionable to you, ask them to show it to you in their codex. People should understand that not everyone has everything memorized and such a verification is OK. If you're watching a game, and see someone cheating or doing a rule wrong, correct them. Don't help on tactics and such, just rules that they are at that moment doing wrong.

At my local store Sportsmanship and Painting are separate prizes, and are not figured into the overall "big prize"

They can be checked later, or if issues arise. It's simply unrealistic to think that 440 army lists can be checked during the course of a tournament, with all the other duties that need to be performed at the same time.

This is exactly why i think big tourney's should require lists be turned in electronically using Army Builder, that way the program checks for you,

Daggermaw wrote:
This is exactly why i think big tourney's should require lists be turned in electronically using Army Builder, that way the program checks for you,

Assuming, of course, that ArmyBuilder is right (it isn't sometimes), up-to-date (The Tyranid upgrade had not been released in time for Adepticon), or altered by those people who know how to write .dat files...

Geemoney wrote:If you don't check the lists whats the point of turning it in?

+1
The best tournament I was at this year required advanced submission of army lists. There was a deadline beyond which you were penalized battle points. The TO programmed each individual list into Army Builder and emailed people to correct errors. On the day of the tournament the TO presented each participant with an Army Builder printout for their army. In addition, the TO posted the first round pairings a few days before the tournament. There was also no subjective scoring or 'fun, wacky!' missions in this tournament. It was the best tourny I've played in to date.

I like the idea of pass/fail on sportsmanship.

olympia wrote:
The best tournament I was at this year required advanced submission of army lists. There was a deadline beyond which you were penalized battle points. The TO programmed each individual list into Army Builder and emailed people to correct errors. On the day of the tournament the TO presented each participant with an Army Builder printout for their army. In addition, the TO posted the first round pairings a few days before the tournament. There was also no subjective scoring or 'fun, wacky!' missions in this tournament. It was the best tourny I've played in to date.

Just by way of comparison, how many people were playing at this tournament?

Redbeard wrote:

olympia wrote:
The best tournament I was at this year required advanced submission of army lists. There was a deadline beyond which you were penalized battle points. The TO programmed each individual list into Army Builder and emailed people to correct errors. On the day of the tournament the TO presented each participant with an Army Builder printout for their army. In addition, the TO posted the first round pairings a few days before the tournament. There was also no subjective scoring or 'fun, wacky!' missions in this tournament. It was the best tourny I've played in to date.

Just by way of comparison, how many people were playing at this tournament?

Fifty-eight I think. If you think 200+ is too many to do an army buidler list for then what the hell is the entry fee for? Ten people enter 24 armies and it's done in two days.

olympia wrote:
Fifty-eight I think. If you think 200+ is too many to do an army buidler list for then what the hell is the entry fee for? Ten people enter 24 armies and it's done in two days.

The entry-fee is for renting a hotel ballroom big enough to hold the people. You don't think those come cheap, do you? Okay, so maybe it's possible logistically, if you want to deny people the chance to tweak their lists until the event starts. You still haven't covered the fact that ArmyBuilder isn't perfect, and isn't necessarily up-to-date with the most recently released codexes.

Shas'O Dorian wrote: Many times I notice the tape measure moves forward as they move the model. Also I tested it myself a few times and I tended to get an extra .5-1.5" movement because when my one hand moved forward for a model, unintentionally, my other did as well.

There are lots of ways to avoid this, if you want to take the effort. One is to mark the end distance for the model to move with a die or something, then move the model to that marker. Another way is to make sure the tape measure rests on the table top before moving the model.

budro wrote:I like the idea of pass/fail on sportsmanship.

And you make it progressive. Something like:

(3 round tournament, say 150 possible points): 1 fail = -2 points. 2 fails = -5pts. 3 fails = -10pts.
(5 round tournament, say 210 possible points): 1 fail = -2pts, 2 fails = -5pts, 3 fails = -10pts, 4 fails = DQ from prizes. 5 fails = DQ and invited to not return to the event.

Then give bonus points for favorite opponent votes. Make it a mandatory field on the final round results sheets.