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Taking this to PM.

Bottom Line: Scout Bikers are highly functional as a disruption unit and rewards creative usage.
Othewise, it's not unit to simply add with no plans for how it will function for the rest of the list (which could be said about any unit, but scout bikers are quite fragile for what you get and what they do).

CatPeeler wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Aha, but how will you know whether or not there are any juicy trades until after you have declared how the scouts are deploying? Since you're going first, you have to declare whether they are infiltrating or outflanking *before* your opponent puts anything on the board.

A smart opponent will just not deploy tanks if you're infiltrating, or deploy in the center (or block the edges) if you're outflanking.

That was my point, actually. If the marine goes first, the scouts infiltrate. If they go second, they can decide after their opponent has tipped his hand.

If the opponent decides to go all in reserve, the scouts have already done their job. 85 points in exchange for your opponent coming in piecemeal is a freakin' bargain.

If they go second, they can't get an alpha-strike. The whole point is to zip in turn one, before getting shot at, and get auto-hits with your krak grenades on vehicles that haven't moved yet. If you go second, your opponent has time to shoot up your scouts--or at least move his vulnerable vehicles.

For many armies, deploying in reserve is not a disadvantage at all. Many mech Tau, mech Eldar and mech marine builds in particular can not only fight coming in from reserve, but it's often actually to their advantage to do so.

Flavius Infernus wrote:A smart opponent will just not deploy tanks if you're infiltrating

LOL a smart opponent... if a single scout biker squad would cause someone to not deploy their tanks THEN they are worth it!

General_Chaos wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:A smart opponent will just not deploy tanks if you're infiltrating

LOL a smart opponent... if a single scout biker squad would cause someone to not deploy their tanks THEN they are worth it!

Maybe I should stop trying to persuade people that putting everything in reserve is not a disadvantage for a mobile army (only for 4th edition static gunlines) and just use the tactic to, like, win more games since nobody seems to think it works.

@Flavius Infernus:
Yes Flavius, give it up, better to have less people know about it and keep surprising opponents with it.
Remember: "Cheese is the cry of the unprepared."

@General_Chaos:
It depends on what type of list and what kind of tank. BA in general don't care as they fire at full effect when coming on.
Reserve lists liking going into reserve because that's how they are built.

If the opponent knows the scouts are infiltrating it's a smart decision to go into reserves and say, conserve kill points(or lack of bubble wrap) and deal with the scouts first. since they have decalred infiltrating they MUST be on the table somewhere (most likely out of sight though).

In addition, it's one of the reasons to include counter-infiltrators really.

I've seen a few too many All Reserves armies get absolutely destroyed a few too many times. A good player can make it work, sure.

But then a good player will be able to make most things work.

So the meta is completely different.
Not too surprising.
___________________________

All of this is just boiling down to point of view.

Scout Bikers: not a unit that will get too much face time in competitive play.
It rewards creative play and punishes poor responces by opponents, but isn't built to survive, it's a fire and forget unit that RELIES on a series of specific events to take place to perform their primary (and arguable only) role.

They are a niche unit in an army that prides itself on being generalist and taking on all-comers. It just won't 'mesh' too well with most traditional lists.

Flavius Infernus wrote:If they go second, they can't get an alpha-strike. The whole point is to zip in turn one, before getting shot at, and get auto-hits with your krak grenades on vehicles that haven't moved yet. If you go second, your opponent has time to shoot up your scouts--or at least move his vulnerable vehicles.

Again, if the marine player is going second, the scout bikers usually outflank. At that point, they still have plenty to accomplish--go for the combimelta shot (esp. w/vulkan giving the twin link), provide harassing fire in the backfield with the mounted bolters, or be in a position for the late-game objective contest. While not as spectacular as the autohit alphastrike, all three are great uses for this unit. My Soulgrinders, for example, absolutely hate these buggers.

For many armies, deploying in reserve is not a disadvantage at all. Many mech Tau, mech Eldar and mech marine builds in particular can not only fight coming in from reserve, but it's often actually to their advantage to do so.

Well, sure. Obviously, an army built around reserves manipulation won't mind going all in reserves--the scouts probably wouldn't even register in that decision. And on the other hand, most players end up facing MEQ's 75-90% of the time.

I will agree that going all in reserves isn't necessarily a bad thing. I do it with my mech-deathwing all the time. Still, even an army built around reserves manipulation runs a higher risk of fighting in a piecemeal fashion than one that deploys completely. Doesn't mean they'll lose, obviously, but it does mean that their task may be more difficult than it would otherwise be. In that sense, just the inclusion of scout bikers in your list is having a tangible effect on the game.

Am I saying that the scout bikers are an 85-point Win Button? Of course not. Damned good use of the points (and fast attack slot), though.

I'm not sure what we are debating anymore.

Can we all agree that scout bikers have uses in the games, in niche roles, which they SHOULD, considering their SCOUT bikers, not supposed to be used as the mainline assault force of an army?

I think we can all agree that fielding a 10 man squad of scout bikers probably won't be points effective... but will look cool, and will not be the sole cause of you loosing a game.

Actually,... heh.
If they scored, they would come ahead of Tactical by a mile IMO.

But they don't, so other than trying for a huge infiltrating presence a few scout bikers get the job done.

Though, I do think it's a waste of a FA slot, I much rather have MM Attack Bike squads or Typhoon LandSpeeders...

I use Scout bikers in my Salamander list, and they have more times then not earned their weight in gold x10. I take 2 squads of 3 and arm the Sgt with a combi-melta, and melta bombs. This will cause almost every player evaluate if deploying on the board is worth it. As far as someone putting their scouts out to block or bubble wrapping their precious tanks with infantry, I take this as a personal victory, because 85 points of my army made you put soft targets out in the open to get annihilated. I have had them take out 1 LRC, and cripple another more than once, and it is awesome to see an opponent mouth gaped wondering how his great and glorious LRC was ripped apart by scouts.

On a side note, I did take the army all the way to the Ard Boyz finals last year, and they proved a great help in the games I won.

Again, like I said, they work really well off of unprepared opponents because of their overall lack of usage on a wide basis.

I don't want to sound like a jerk but:

I use [insert unit ]in my list, and they have more times then not earned their weight in gold x10.

This line can be used for everything.
My multi-melta attack bikes in the same FOC never let me down at least in target saturation purposes (pulling str 8 fire power) at the same time wrecking tanks...scouts really don't attract that kind of fire power and don't stand too well to the small arms either.

So FOR ME, I prefer the similar offense and better defense of other units in the FA slot, over the utility and deployment options of the scouts.

I was just throwing in my 2 cents, and I can appreciate your opinion.

Besides, I have rarely found anyone who builds lists like me.