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umm , 4M2A, you do know that a poll of "Who is least evil" and 30% there isn't a valid answer to " who are the good guys".
Its rather a hint on them beeing less evil than others, but still not good.

Possible to be the least evil, without beeing good.

Anidem wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:My take is that the Tau do not have a religion, other than the greater good, but have souls. They would likely look down upon religious belief in general. My take on the other side of the discussion is the Tau do not fit nicely into any political category, but take aspects from many sources. I feel that the tau are definitely not the “good guys” of the 40K universe. They created a totalitarian empire centered on mind control and eugenics; it’s my opinion that they are even shadier and more repressive than the Imperium.

*They are completely controlled by their etherals; dissent equals death.

*Tau that mate outside their caste are sentenced to death; which is a level of eugenics that touches upon the National Socialists of WW2.

*The entire population is controlled by manipulation and mind control. I am betting that the whole Mont’au that they endured before the etherals emerged was fabricated to make them submissive and open for a significant change.

* The aliens in their empire are basically slaves kept in check by the barrel of a gun.

When I read the tau codex I can’t help but make the comparison between other works of literature like Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World, 1984, and Animal Farm. “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal then others” – tell me that doesn’t apply to the etherals or the way the tau view other aliens like the kroot.

They are slightly controlled by their Etherals, while the Imperium want to beleive that they have some pheromone gland or something that allows direct control, there has yet to be any evidence of this. They are jsut beleived to be extremly Charismatic, and natural leaders

Tau arent alone in death-sentencing/discriminating people for relations outside of their cast, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India while their current constitution has worked strongly against it, due to people clinging to tradition, it still exists. And them pushing natural selection worked for the betterment of their race, each cast evolves specific traits that allowed each to greatly further the Greater Good.

Their entire population isnt based on mind control. If you where raised from day one that giving freely of yourself for the betterment of society, by your parents and teachers, you would take this beleif as your own. They just sucessfully got everyone to follow the same message, this is possibly the only Utopian Society in ALL of WH40K

Read up on both the Vespids and the non-merc Kroot (the merc ones try to stay away from Tau), and the Imperium Traitors that willingly defected to the Tau empire. They are treated favorably for their contributions, they are given supplies, shelters, and most (if not all) gain Tau assistance on tachnology, while some of them actually gain Tau technology. Even though it explicitly states that "Tau seek out races that have similar traits as them" (IE ranged fighters) and yet go out of their way to save the Kroot from getting completely wrecked by the Tyranids. The Kroot, in turn, willingly give up warriors to fight along side of the Tau on a regular basis, who are actually compensated for their work, even though in the beleif of the Greater Good all must give freely of themselves to further the cause

This is very typical of Tau apologists. If someone points out something that may be negative (such as eugenics) they'll just say "well a human did that too". It doesn't matter. we're discussing the Tau here. So what if they have a caste system in India!? That's such a stupid arguement. Are you guys not capable of discussing the Tau on their own merits?

4M2A wrote:Actually Grunt13 there is a more recent poll (currently in the fluff section) about who are the good guys and Tau are leading. All of the points you bought up have been completely gone over there.

You’re not referring to the “Who is the least Evil?” poll are you? That’s hardly makes a case supporting the tau as a peaceful and righteous people, as the poll is asking people to identify the lesser evil in the 40K universe. That’s like someone saying, “Hey I might sell drugs to elementary schoolers and break in to peoples’ house to poison their pets, but put me in a room with Hitler and Ted Bundy and you will see that I am a good guy by comparison”. My argument was that the tau were bad guys, not that they were the greatest evil in a galaxy where everyone is a genocidal murderer or a monster.

The poll only says that 31% of the people feel the tau are the lesser evil when compare to the other races (eldar, ork, human, necrons, chaos, etc.)– they are not “leading”, they are just the largest minority. By the same token 69% of the people are stating that they believe the tau are more evil than one or more of the options provided, which only further strengthens my case against them.

The idea it's the least evil means that relative to the other races, they are the most good race. It all depends on perspective.

If Tau have got 31% of the vote and are leading the other 69% believing another race is irrelivant. Otherwise multiple choice polls would never work unless one group got more than 50%. Having the highest vote means they are leading. Thats how they work.

I think if we want to carry this on we should go into the other thread as this is derailing this thread.

4M2A wrote:The idea it's the least evil means that relative to the other races, they are the most good race. It all depends on perspective.

If Tau have got 31% of the vote and are leading the other 69% believing another race is irrelivant. Otherwise multiple choice polls would never work unless one group got more than 50%. Having the highest vote means they are leading. Thats how they work.

I think if we want to carry this on we should go into the other thread as this is derailing this thread.

So why did You mention the poll if this is derailing this thread?

Least evil has nothing to do with most good. As good wasn't asked for and we don't know if there is neutral too....
Least evil could be 49% evil and the rest 51- 55% evil. Not really good.

Now, does it matter for Tau's afterlife ( if they have one) if they followed the greater good?
Or is their belief a natural cycle of life, and they just live and die as every creature but without gods.

Wyvern wrote:The Greater Good ideal is a form of communism. Unfortunately, people assume communism is bad. The idea itself isnt. Its just at the moment, humans arent capable of it.
But no, they dont have any form of afterlife I know of. The do have a lot of rituals, I believe they are quite spiritual. Take the Ta'lissera (Bonding ceremony) the Fire Caste sometimes go through.

Uh, no; the basic foundation of Tau culture and society is a strict caste system, the basic foundation of communism is the elimination of all class constructs

But to the topic: as tau have an extremely small warp signature their "souls", or whatever you want to call it, probably cease to exist in any noticeable way after death


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SmackCakes wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're not communists but it does appear they're atheists.

How can you fight against demons and still be an atheist?

"Demons" is just a moniker, i'd rather think of the warp as an alternate dimension (as it is) than some kind of spiritual plain. I'd like to use The Mist as an example: the monsters from the other dimension defy all of our preconceptions and physical ideas, but that doesn't mean they're demonic

I mentioned that thread as a suggestion that if Grunt13 wished to carry on this discussion there would be a better place to do it than a thread about Tau religion.

Yes, back on topic: It appears The Tau are a pragmatic "what you see is what you get" kind of people and therefore atheist or agnostic.

1hadhq wrote:Now, does it matter for Tau's afterlife ( if they have one) if they followed the greater good?
Or is their belief a natural cycle of life, and they just live and die as every creature but without gods.

Humans that believe in the emperor are said to join with him upon their deaths. I can imagine tau souls achieving congruence due to their shared belief in the greater good. The smaller warp presence may mean that this doesn’t account form much as individuals, But every single tau dedicating themselves to a single cause might be effecting the warp the similar way as humans give their souls to the emperor or chaos gods. Or their souls could just be released into the warp, as the tau don’t believe they possess them – I am somewhat sure this is what is said to happen to human souls without an allegiance.

4M2A wrote:The idea it's the least evil means that relative to the other races, they are the most good race. It all depends on perspective.

If Tau have got 31% of the vote and are leading the other 69% believing another race is irrelivant. Otherwise multiple choice polls would never work unless one group got more than 50%. Having the highest vote means they are leading. Thats how they work.

I think if we want to carry this on we should go into the other thread as this is derailing this thread.

I stated the poll didn’t show the tau “leading” (see the quotes, they are in my previous post as well) as the good guys as 69 percent of the people didn’t even rate them as least evil villain. Getting 31 percent when your being compared to orks and necrons is nothing to brag about. I could easily be elected president if I was only running against a Klansman, a member of NAMBLA, and Charles Manson – It doesn’t mean that it will translate into a high approval rating once elected, especially when I force my Clothing Optional Saturday bill through congress.

Anyway the whole idea of referencing an opinion poll is an inadequate method of determining how nice the tau actually are, we need to access the tau on their own conduct which parallels the behavior of the most brutal regimes that existed on earth and mimics repressive fictitious governments portrayed in literature I gave example too in a previous post. The tau can only be considered the good guys when compared to other races that will eat your soul and string your guts as decorations – which is like saying you are better than Genghis Khan, it doesn’t make you a hero.

Aggressively engaging in a Manifest Destiny in which you conquer and enslave the galaxy does not make you a good guy. The use of sterilizations, mind control, eugenic programs, and enslavement to promote a fascist galaxy wide totalitarnism is not the behavior of anyone who can claim to be good guys. They are just as bad if not worst than the Imperium, they just look more clean cut and appear as sympathetic underdogs. Using mind control to force others to fight and die to further your cause of galactic domination is something that the bad guys do.

Why are you so concerned about the thread being derailed? The issue is somewhat related and ties into tau morality and beliefs which in 40k directly compares to what happens to an individual’s soul.

Getting 31 percent when your being compared to orks and necrons is nothing to brag about. I could easily be elected president if I was only running against a Klansman, a member of NAMBLA, and Charles Manson – It doesn’t mean that it will translate into a high approval rating once elected, especially when I force my Clothing Optional Saturday bill through congress.

Well that is who the Tau are being compared to so that doesn't make much difference.

The reason I don't want this thread to be taken over by a "Are Tau good or Bad?" is because this topic overtakes a lot of threads and as we currently have a thread discussing this topic it seems pointless to ruin this one.