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Again, using the strict rules in the book, they are supposed to be rolled separately when rolling to hit. Then re roll any TL rolls. So if you want to be a stickler or just dont want to get cheated, make them, you know, follow the rules. They are in there for a reason

I mean really how much time are you saving anyways at the end of a game. I betcha its less then a whole minute

imo, luck is a real thing, and i find people rolling two dice for TL shots to be a manipulation of luck. its superstitious of me in many ways, i know, but i cant shake the feeling that people do it because they think it'll raise their own chances of rolling better (as to me, it seems much harder to roll dbl 1s, than it is to roll 1, then 1 again on the same dice - YES I KNOW ABOUT MATHS BEFORE YOU REPLY). so, i generally ask that opponents roll their dice, then if they miss, roll the re-roll. that way, yorue playing the game the way its meant to be played, and we can live with missing out on the 43 seconds of our lives we could have saved by rolling TLs all at once for the whole game.

i mean, if youre so worried about saving time, maybe playing a tabletop wargame with little, bitty, pretty-painted soldiermens isnt the best use of your oh-so-important day.

Cheap IMO. I'de rather just have my opponent roll the results one at a time.

Just because I like to know what exactly is going on when people are tossing dice around.

iddqd wrote:imo, luck is a real thing, and i find people rolling two dice for TL shots to be a manipulation of luck. its superstitious of me in many ways, i know, but i cant shake the feeling that people do it because they think it'll raise their own chances of rolling better (as to me, it seems much harder to roll dbl 1s, than it is to roll 1, then 1 again on the same dice - YES I KNOW ABOUT MATHS BEFORE YOU REPLY). so, i generally ask that opponents roll their dice, then if they miss, roll the re-roll. that way, yorue playing the game the way its meant to be played, and we can live with missing out on the 43 seconds of our lives we could have saved by rolling TLs all at once for the whole game.

i mean, if youre so worried about saving time, maybe playing a tabletop wargame with little, bitty, pretty-painted soldiermens isnt the best use of your oh-so-important day.

QFT.

Anyway, if you think about it... my chances with a TL Lascannon at BS4 is 4/6.

then, the second time, it's 4/6 again.

however, if you roll 2d6, it suddenly becomes /36, which means 24/36 chance, even though it ends up being the same, it feels larger, and generally, you're not very likely to get 2D6 the same. (it's a 1/6 chance)

To clearify my statement about two seperate colors. I thought it was clear that each set of colors was for each weapon and not each shot.

Red = Left TLLC
Green = Right TLLC

Not

Red = first shot
Green = second shot

For me I only allow 2 dice per weapon used. If they wanted to do the two colored version of Right and Left weapons, I'd let them.

Some people do like to roll the dice at the same time because they think they have a better chance. Mathmatically they are the same.

Seems to me it takes longer to explain what all of the multi-color dice means than it does to pick up the misses and throw them again.

Homer

This was briefly touched on earlier- you should not roll 2 dice at the same time for a "gets hot" weapon. The reason is fairly simple, there's no way to tell if you roll a "1" on either die whether the "1" is the first or the second roll. This isn't going to be a problem if one of the rolls is a hit but it is a problem if 1 die is a "1" and the other die would miss.

If you wanted to fire a twin linked multiple shot weapon you could easily distinguish between each shot as a different colour. For example, a TL heavy bolter would need 3 pairs of linked dice (for example 2x red, 2x blue, 2x green). If either of each pair hit it is one hit. It's really not very complicated.

I know it doesn't really save time but I have always rolled TL as two dice and I'm not going to stop now. I also refuse to roll a dice, disregard the result automatically and then roll again (but that's a different situation). If you can reach your destination with less work, why not?

As a maths teacher, threads like this make me cry.

Sad thing is, I know maths teachers (idiot maths teachers, but paid, professional maths teachers nevertheless) who get this stuff wrong, so how can I blame their students?

Fifty wrote:As a maths teacher, threads like this make me cry.

Sad thing is, I know maths teachers (idiot maths teachers, but paid, professional maths teachers nevertheless) who get this stuff wrong, so how can I blame their students?

What, sorry? Take a side

lets say that there is something special on your weapon. any roll to hit of a 6 makes the next roll rending (just making a point here.work with me) and you roll 2 die and take the highest. lets say you rolled a 5 and a 6. Which one did you roll first? There is a reason that a weapon needs to be "Re-rolled"

Its like when you get multiple penetrating hits on a vehicle. everyone wants to pick up every pen hit and roll at the same time. i tell them NO, you are not dong that. what if you roll a 5 before a 6?

i dont know about you guys but if i had passengers on my vehicle, and some guy had tried to roll everything at once, i would accept a 5 before a 6 so that i dont take wounds from it...

and this is where seperate rolls come in handy. >


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yes, i know rending isnt on the roll to hit. but i was giving an example of a "What if" (like the rangers that have weapons that roll 5-6 and it is AP1, then on a wound, a 6 is rending...yea. something along that lines except TL)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Soup and a roll wrote:If you wanted to fire a twin linked multiple shot weapon you could easily distinguish between each shot as a different colour. For example, a TL heavy bolter would need 3 pairs of linked dice (for example 2x red, 2x blue, 2x green). If either of each pair hit it is one hit. It's really not very complicated.

I know it doesn't really save time but I have always rolled TL as two dice and I'm not going to stop now. I also refuse to roll a dice, disregard the result automatically and then roll again (but that's a different situation). If you can reach your destination with less work, why not?

Just wanted to quote this.

Why would you pick up 6 die when you could simply pick up 3, roll all 3, and then roll the 1-2 misses (3 if your very unlucky). IMO, picking up 6 die takes more time, and then you have to find the 3 colors....OMG! just stick with a single die for each roll....

3, 2, 5.

pick up the 2 and just re-roll it...good job

50, is there something wrong with my mathematics?

Kyric wrote:
Its like when you get multiple penetrating hits on a vehicle. everyone wants to pick up every pen hit and roll at the same time. i tell them NO, you are not dong that. what if you roll a 5 before a 6?

i dont know about you guys but if i had passengers on my vehicle, and some guy had tried to roll everything at once, i would accept a 5 before a 6 so that i dont take wounds from it...

and this is where seperate rolls come in handy. >

wouldn't you be required to roll them all at the same time and apply all the results at once since that is when they occur?

Rolling both together and accepting if either hits is fine. Combining dice from different TL weapons isn't.

Look at it this way:

You roll your two dice for your left TL lascannon. Both dice miss. You then roll for the right TL lascannon. Both dice hit.

Playing properly, only one weapon hits (you wouldn't have bothered with the reroll). If you had rolled all 4 dice together and picked the hits, both would hit.

Probability-wise, assuming a 50:50 chance of hitting:

The chance of both weapons missing is 1/16 either way.

RAW, the chance of one weapon hitting is 11/16, and the chance of both weapons hitting is 4/16

Your friends way, the chance of one weapon hitting is 9/16, and the chance of both weapons hitting is 6/16

Your friend was wrong, but it's a subtle point. It's why it's best to follow RAW when dealing with things like re-rolls and multiple dice rolls.

BrockRitcey wrote:

Kyric wrote:
Its like when you get multiple penetrating hits on a vehicle. everyone wants to pick up every pen hit and roll at the same time. i tell them NO, you are not dong that. what if you roll a 5 before a 6?

i dont know about you guys but if i had passengers on my vehicle, and some guy had tried to roll everything at once, i would accept a 5 before a 6 so that i dont take wounds from it...

and this is where seperate rolls come in handy. >

wouldn't you be required to roll them all at the same time and apply all the results at once since that is when they occur?

No, if im not mistaken, the vehicle can wreck before it explodes. if you read in the BRB, it says that once a vehicle is wrecked, all rolls stop. (which means that die are rolled seperately )

Mathmatics: Yes, ensure that somehow you roll a "matched" set of dice and scoring a single hit works. Yes, fine, done.

Clarity of Play: Not easy to follow sometimes (My Vendetta fires all three twin linked lascannons and I will roll the green, purple and blue pairs of dice for a hit) I think I can perform my roll and re-roll before I get all 3 matched pairs rounded up.

I have seen all too often some interesting non-standard gaming methods only used as a means to cheat. It is better to stop trying to be "clever" and just play clearly and plainly that is adequately outlined in the rules book. I know we want to show off our fine grasp of mathematics but I do statistics as part of my living and at the end of the day I have trouble adding and subtracting it hurts so much...

Kyric wrote:

BrockRitcey wrote:

Kyric wrote:
Its like when you get multiple penetrating hits on a vehicle. everyone wants to pick up every pen hit and roll at the same time. i tell them NO, you are not dong that. what if you roll a 5 before a 6?

i dont know about you guys but if i had passengers on my vehicle, and some guy had tried to roll everything at once, i would accept a 5 before a 6 so that i dont take wounds from it...

and this is where seperate rolls come in handy. >

wouldn't you be required to roll them all at the same time and apply all the results at once since that is when they occur?

No, if im not mistaken, the vehicle can wreck before it explodes. if you read in the BRB, it says that once a vehicle is wrecked, all rolls stop. (which means that die are rolled seperately )

I think you are mistaken.

Page 61. "Roll a d6 for each shot that glanced or penetrated the vehicle's armour, apply any appropriate modifiers (they are all cumulative) and look up the result on the Vehicle Damage table."

That tells you to roll for all the dice that glanced or penetrated. There isn't anything else that tells you to stop if you roll a wreck or explode. So stopping when you roll wreck would be wrong because you can roll the explode.

kyric. not the smartest cookie.

you take the highest result. you roll all at the same time. silly boy.

anyway, you always take a wound for being inside the tank.

1 S4 wound for everyone.

And where exactly does "all rolls stop" come from?

Refer to your rulebook before you make bad presumptions.

Captain Solon wrote:kyric. not the smartest cookie.

you take the highest result. you roll all at the same time. silly boy.

anyway, you always take a wound for being inside the tank.

1 S4 wound for everyone.

And where exactly does "all rolls stop" come from?

Refer to your rulebook before you make bad presumptions.

I gotta agree with this guy. When I read kyric's post I started flipping through the rule book looking for this mysterious rule that I'd never heard of before. I was like "Really? It says that? How could I have missed that?" Then I realized that kyric was wrong and I was wrong about being wrong.

It would be awesome if you did stop. Then when the other guy rolls 2 wrecked and 1 explode on my ork trukk I would only have to roll one dice on the ramshakle table since after the first wreck he would stop rolling.

Captain Solon wrote:kyric. not the smartest cookie.

you take the highest result. you roll all at the same time. silly boy.

A little less condescension would be kinda nice for all involved...

anyway, you always take a wound for being inside the tank.

1 S4 wound for everyone.

...especially if you're going to say something like that. You take HITS when a vehicle explodes... those hits may or may not result in wounds. You don't take ANY hits (much less wounds) when a vehicle wrecks.

Refer to your rulebook before you make bad presumptions.

Sound advice.

I think in friendly games, we have always rolled all of the pen results together and then all of the glances together. In each case, stopping at a result of 5 or 6, otherwise applying the appropriate damages.

In a tourney, I suppose with clinical RAW you would roll and resolve them each individually. Does that mean that a transport might explode twice? Does each transported model take 2 x S4 hits or 1 x S8 hit? How about the explosion radius? is it applied twice or once at double the distance?

Homer

...especially if you're going to say something like that. You take HITS when a vehicle explodes... those hits may or may not result in wounds. You don't take ANY hits (much less wounds) when a vehicle wrecks.

Checking.

Yeah. you're right. it's just a pinning test.

however, argueing that "you wrecked the vehicle cos you roled it first! liez. dats da rool."

is cheating. blatent. cheating. BLATENT

kidding. :]

zeshin wrote:If you were firing 2 twin linked weapons (hence 4 dice) the outcome would be the same as long as he rolled 2 for weapon A and 2 for weapon B. Otherwise he could have rolled 2 "hits on A and 2 misses on B but called the 2 hits the rerolls for the 2 misses.

Either way he is technically incorrect as it should be a reroll but the effect isnt changed if he keeps each weapons roll(s) seperate.

That's not true. If he had done it correctly and rolled 2 dice and got one hit and one miss. he could have re rolled the miss and got another miss. that's only 3 dice he gets. Yet he rolled 4 dice if he gets 2 hits and 2 misses he technicaly rolled the same number of misses but gets 2 hits. Same dice results but very different game results.

VoxDei wrote:That's not true. If he had done it correctly and rolled 2 dice and got one hit and one miss. he could have re rolled the miss and got another miss. that's only 3 dice he gets. Yet he rolled 4 dice if he gets 2 hits and 2 misses he technicaly rolled the same number of misses but gets 2 hits. Same dice results but very different game results.

If the dice had been in (colored) pairs, as the discussion has been suggesting, there is no difference between 2 dice and 4.

Editing to add:
Exceptions have been noted previously, e.g Gets Hot!

Agreed. If different coloured dice are used for each weapon then it doesn't make a difference.

Two pages of discussion to always roll more dice than you need? Really?

Homer

for a weapon that only fires one shot as a las cannon, rolling 2 dice and if either hits its a hit is perfectly fine.

so for a godhammer land raider, rolling 2 sets of dice (different colors sizes whatever) and getting one hit from a pair is fine.


rolling multiple dice for a hevy bolter with multiple shots doesnt work well since in the case of a heavy bolter you would need 3 sets of dice, one for each possible shot, then determinging a hit from each pair its probably faster to reroll the misses.

this does not work for blast weapons and some other things because the order of occurance is significant. where a blast weapon might deviate but you have to decide then if your going to reroll knowing where the deviation is.