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Right, the exterminator may be better against long range anti-tank, but you've got to remember that you get THREE hydras for the cost. Is the exterminator three times more durable over all? Against long range fire, perhaps, but once your opponent starts zipping up fire dragons and meltabombs, etc. the exterminator is going to die just as fast as a hydra.

Why GW decided that a LRBT without a serious turret weapon should cost the same as an LRBT with a battlecannon is beyond me. Like Chris said, if it cost more like 100-125 points, then it would be worthwhile just to spam AV14, but given that the only point to heavy support is to lay down damage, and the exterminator does this poorly (especially compared to other HS options) really marks it for the bench.

Pask is fantastic for a Vanquisher ora Punisher.

Necanor wrote:Pask is fantastic for a Vanquisher ora Punisher.

No. No he's not. We've spent most of this thread debunking these points.

Necanor wrote:Pask is fantastic for a Vanquisher ora Punisher.

the trouble is, without that AP value, i find punishers highly ineffective. yea, 20 shots per turn, but it really doesnt work. i have used them before and find them pointless.

Thing is that the hydras have more higher strength guns than the exterminator and can shoot down pesky scout bikers, either eldar, any mech, and especially other guard.

Pask's exterminator gives you a couple S8 long range shots that still only do just as much damage than a couple shots of hydras but hydras have more shots

Nenya97 wrote:Thing is that the hydras have more higher strength guns than the exterminator and can shoot down pesky scout bikers, either eldar, any mech, and especially other guard.

Pask's exterminator gives you a couple S8 long range shots that still only do just as much damage than a couple shots of hydras but hydras have more shots

. . . Hydras have 4 shots. Pask has 4 shots. Arguably, Pask has "more", since he can move and shoot 4 (plus a hull or sponson), while the Hydra can only move and shoot 2. Both are twin-linked, but Pask has higher BS, giving more shots landed. Also, Pask doesn't technically have S8 shots, he gets +1 on the AV roll. This matters if you have a Lascannon against Eldar with shields.

Pask in an Exterminator has better shooting than a Hydra. Range and SMF factor in. I would argue that they're helpful but don't overshadow the primary stats. It's just a question of cost. Hydras are more points-efficient (assuming you don't take the armor into account).

All that said, I'd still take Hydras, I just don't know where you got that a Hydra had more shots than an Exterminator.

ElCheezus wrote:Hydras have 4 shots. Pask has 4 shots.

And a pasksterminator costs three times as much. Really, points by points, Hydras have 12 shots, while Pask has 4.

ElCheezus wrote:Pask in an Exterminator has better shooting than a Hydra.

pasksterminator per hydra, yes. Once again, the problem is that you can only field one paskstermiantor, while you can field 9 hydras, and that you can field three hydras for basically the price of a single pasksterminator.

Ailaros wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:Hydras have 4 shots. Pask has 4 shots.

And a pasksterminator costs three times as much. Really, points by points, Hydras have 12 shots, while Pask has 4.

ElCheezus wrote:Pask in an Exterminator has better shooting than a Hydra.

pasksterminator per hydra, yes. Once again, the problem is that you can only field one paskstermiantor, while you can field 9 hydras, and that you can field three hydras for basically the price of a single pasksterminator.

ElCheezus wrote:Pask in an Exterminator has better shooting than a Hydra. Range and SMF factor in. I would argue that they're helpful but don't overshadow the primary stats. It's just a question of cost. Hydras are more points-efficient (assuming you don't take the armor into account).

Throw him in a punisher with heavy bolter sponsons and a hull mounted lascannon, just in case, and watch him knock them down in droves.

DeJolly wrote:Throw him in a punisher with heavy bolter sponsons and a hull mounted lascannon, just in case, and watch him knock them down in droves.

No, even with BS4, that really won't do very much, and it's only going to be a threat to light infantry. So if you face a greentide, swarm guard or gaunt's list? Sure it'll kill its fair share of points. But only in those few situations. In almost any other situation, it's not going to be worth it.

DeJolly wrote:Throw him in a punisher with heavy bolter sponsons and a hull mounted lascannon, just in case, and watch him knock them down in droves.

And, like i pointed out, the lack of AP is a very bad thing. if it was maybe AP 4-5 i would take it, but it isnt. so i wont be.

One thing I haven't seen anyone else mention in the Hydra vs Exterminator debate. Surviveability. Those Hydras can indeed put out some decent firepower, but they die quickly to almost any fire pointed their way, thanks to the squadron rules where a penetrate has a 50% chance of killing them (thank goodness they're not open-topped!). And if someone gets flank shots on them, it's all over. Sure, there are ways to attempt to mitigate the damage, by trying to give them cover saves, etc. But in the end, they are still 12/10/10 hulls. Then there's the Exterminator. 14/13/10. As IG players we all know how difficult it can be to pop heavy armor at range, so I don't think I even need to go into that.

don_mondo wrote: As IG players we all know how difficult it can be to pop heavy armor at range, so I don't think I even need to go into that.

Exactly, at range.

The exterminator is more durable against very long range firepower, this is undeniable. Against meltaguns, though, the survivability of either vehicle starts getting really poor, and both are equally survivable against krak grenades.

The exterminator is equally as durable compared to its points in hydras against one weapons class, while the hydras are twice as durable against every other weapon class.

AV 14 only goes so far against BOGOF.

TheGentleman wrote:

Necanor wrote:Pask is fantastic for a Vanquisher ora Punisher.

the trouble is, without that AP value, i find punishers highly ineffective. yea, 20 shots per turn, but it really doesnt work. i have used them before and find them pointless. [/quot


Who needs a good AP against: guard, nids, demons or orks.

Without sufficient AP 1/3 of all Guardsman wounds will be saved, statistically speaking. That AP is really quite a significant factor when you're dealing with lots of Guardsman, 'Nids or Orks. More importantly the AP - means that the Punisher isn't going to be good at transport busting thanks to the -1 for the damage chart.

Necanor wrote:Who needs a good AP against: guard, nids, demons or orks.

Math time! Assuming 2 hydras shooting, against one punisher shooting its (way unfair in favor of the punisher, I know)...

VS T3 5+
Hydras: 7.5
Punisher: 6.75

VS T4 6+
Hydras: 7
Punisher: 6.5

VS T3 5++
Hydras: 7
Punisher: 6.5

What we see is that, even with things in the punisher's favor (like ignoring that it costs 30 points more, or that it's main gun won't always be in range), the hydra outpreforms the punisher. That and it's more durable (only AV12, but you get twice as many of them). That and it is better against MCs and ignores SMF.

The hydras are simply a better weapon. If you're not convinced, do the math for a punisher compared to it's points in lasguns and bewoe the fact that regular troopers are even better than this craptastic tank.

The hydras are simply a better weapon. If you're not convinced, do the math for a punisher compared to it's points in lasguns and bewoe the fact that regular troopers are even better than this craptastic tank.

The only minor flaw is that...where do you get hydras from? i wasnt under the inpression that you can buy them from GW

This is a hobby, not just a game. Make them! Also, FW.

Just an FYI, but a Leman Russ chasis is more durable than 3 hydras in a squadron against long range fire. Doesn't make up for the loss of firepower, but hey.

Irdiumstern wrote:Just an FYI, but a Leman Russ chasis is more durable than 3 hydras in a squadron against long range fire. Doesn't make up for the loss of firepower, but hey.

Against long range fire, true, but current meta game is obsessed with melta and all kinds of other close range anti tank, thus the importance of heavy front armor is mildly mitigated. That's not to say that AV14 is worthless, and Hydras are fragile SOBs. But, as you said, the sheer dakka you get out of 225 points of Hydra drastically outweights the dakka you'll get out of 200 points of Exterminator w/ Pask.

And furthermore, it's not even true.

3 lascannon hits v 1 russ chassis = .5 wrecked chassis (50% of the force brought)

3 lascannon hits v. 3 chimera chassis in a squad = 1 wrecked chassis (33% of your force brought).

The fact that AV14 makes you more durable is obscured by the fact that you gain durability from redundancy.

yes, a single guardsman is easier to kill than a single terminator, but guard infantry are still durable on a unit-basis because you get so many of them, not because they are durable on a model-basis.

Same is true in this case.

I'd put him in a punisher if I ever took one (not likely). That's..... really about it.

Ailaros wrote:And furthermore, it's not even true.

3 lascannon hits v 1 russ chassis = .5 wrecked chassis (50% of the force brought)

3 lascannon hits v. 3 chimera chassis in a squad = 1 wrecked chassis (33% of your force brought).

The fact that AV14 makes you more durable is obscured by the fact that you gain durability from redundancy.

yes, a single guardsman is easier to kill than a single terminator, but guard infantry are still durable on a unit-basis because you get so many of them, not because they are durable on a model-basis.

Same is true in this case.

Now do the math on 12 twin-linked autocannon shots vs AV14 and against AV12.....

I agree that the hydra edges the exterminator in terms of an 'all-comers' approach, also bearing in mind its improved lethality against skimmers. However to flat dissmiss it, I feel is wrong. A lot depends on your list, how you want to run it and to a lesser extend (infact very player dependant) how much you like the fluff/concept.

Counting Weapon Destroyed results for russes as destroyed, since it takes away primary functionality. Hydras are still 50% functional with 1 weapon destroyed.

Leman Russ vs. Lascannon Hits: (1/6)(1/6)+(1/6)(1/2) = 1/9 = .1111% chance per lascannon hit to kill the leman russ

Hydra Squadron vs. Lascannon Hits: (1/6)(1/6)+(1/2)(1/2) = 5/18 =.2778% Chance per lascannon hit to kill a Hydra

If we divide the hydra chance by 3, we get .0926%, meaning the difference between a full squadron of Hydras and a single Leman Russ in terms of survivability is fairly minuscule.
Against 2
hydras, the Russ comes out ahead.