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Brother Bartius wrote:I've also found Maugan Ra to be useful in a squad of pathfinders. His range compliments theirs and he provides them with something they don't have - some CC punch. At eh same point he gets the advantage of a 2+ cover save protection from plasma or any other ranged AP2 weaponry.

I was confused when I first read that, but yeah wound distribution. That's not actually a bad idea. He would, or at least should, certainly deter any CC units from getting too close to the Pathfinders.

Question though. I know that Phoenix Lords are Fearless and confer that to their aspect when they join them, but what about other squads? Would he make the Pathfinders fearless? And if he doesn't, what happens if they take enough wounds and fail the LD10? (Hey it's possible).

He doesn't make them fearless and if they run, they drag him with them and likely off the board.

Lovely really. I can tell you it's not fun for either player.

I'm more a fan of stuffing him with wraithguard. You have to wound T6, then ether a 4+ cover save or 3+ armour save (2+ if you shove it on ra). Hit that unit with fortune and I've been know to walk 6 man (5 + warlock) units a cross the board (only real threat is CC).

Tri wrote:I'm more a fan of stuffing him with wraithguard. You have to wound T6, then ether a 4+ cover save or 3+ armour save (2+ if you shove it on ra). Hit that unit with fortune and I've been know to walk 6 man (5 + warlock) units a cross the board (only real threat is CC).

And don't forget fearless too.

Too bad he's not a psyker for the wraithsight-sitting.

They don't give fearless to squads not of their aspect.

The wraithguard are fearless. Any character who joins a fearless squad also becomes fearless.

I've actually had some good uses out of Asurmen recently. I run him in a squad of 10 avengers with a pw/ss exarch. These guys are very hard to shift, and are scoring. I've had the squad run through 2 bezerker squads with fist skull champs (8 men each) without taking a single casualty (yes I was lucky for that, but even regularly going through 2 bezerker squads with avengers is a feat). I've had fearlessness come in handy when fighting Tyranid shrikes with boneswords. I lost by 4, lost 2 avengers to saves, and went on to win the combat next round. Would have lost them had they run (and ld 5 is not reliable).

Also had very good use with Fuegan. He's arguably the most survivable lord since he has FNP, and in cover has an equivalent to Asurmen's ++. He's very good at clearing mech armies. I've had him take on 3 dreads, a master of the forge with servitors and a scout squad all on his own (he had 1 wound left at the end).


Overall, they aren't bad. That said, DO NOT put them up against the special characters from other armies as you will lose horribly and then complain that PLs are weak and useless.

Also one thing for Jain Zar. An interesting tactic is to put her with a full banshee squad and a triskele exarch. You get 6 AP2 shots that hit on 2s or better. With doom you should be getting 4 AP2 wounds (plus pistol shots). This gives the squad quite the shooting power, and if they are assaulted they have counter attack and go first with power weapons. If you present enough light targets to soak up enemy shooting (such as dragons or warlocks) your banshees should be able to survive that turn in the open.

I have started to find that everyone automatically shouts "over-priced" as soon as they hear the words "Phoenix Lords". It is like a reflex action.

Yes, they are expensive, and you have to make sure you use them properly, but they are useable. Maugan Ra in a Pathfinder squad along with a Doom/Guide/Fortune Farseer will see your opponents get very frustrated. I also thought of the Harlequin option yonks ago, but have no painted Harliequins to try it with. Hell, you can even put him with 20 Guadians as an ablative shield.

Some of them you do not actually want with their own aspect, granted, but none of them are actually bad. I had thought that about Baharroth, and he may be the exception, but this idea of putting him with infantry squads despite being jump infantry needs some thought devoted to it.

It's not that they are really over-priced, it will always come back to the fact that for the points of most of the PL's you can get 2 HQ's that are infinitely better.

infinitely better.

No. Give me any other Eldar HQ, and I'll tell you how the PL is better (except Baharroth. I still haven't found a use for him that is worth it).

And even so, claiming that other Eldar HQs do better for the same points is the same as calling the PLs overpriced.

I think the issue is that they aren't the point and click heroes that other races get (for example lysander, Mephiston, Logan, Vulkan all of who don't care what they're fighting since they will probably win). In their choice combats, the Phoenix Lords completely destroy (for example, Fuegan against tanks, Asurmen against cc elites or Jain Zar against marine squads). They don't all kill everything and take extreme punishment, but then again they don't cost as much as those who do.

Ail-Shan wrote:

No. Give me any other Eldar HQ, and I'll tell you how the PL is better (except Baharroth. I still haven't found a use for him that is worth it).

Eldrad

.....okay that was a cheap shot.

But even so, Eldrad costs about the same as the PLs, and should fortune not go off, is nowhere near as survivable (while his invulnerable is better, he can get IDed). In addition he is far poorer at combat, especially against large groups of enemies. His power is limited by enemy psychic defense, and while he can kill all targets, he cannot do it particularly well due to lack of attacks.

As a support character, Eldrad is obviously far better than the PLs. However he does have his drawbacks (such as survivability being reliant on fortune, killing ability limited by low attack number) and is nowhere near as good in combat.

The Phoenix Lords are amazing units, they make the aspect warrior squads SOOO good it isn't funny, but you must be willing to pay the coin to use them, just be thankful that we don't have Space Marine or Tyranid point costs, for Special characters they are cheap (except maybe Asurmen and Baharroh)

Ail-Shan wrote:

infinitely better.

No. Give me any other Eldar HQ, and I'll tell you how the PL is better (except Baharroth. I still haven't found a use for him that is worth it).

And even so, claiming that other Eldar HQs do better for the same points is the same as calling the PLs overpriced.

I think the issue is that they aren't the point and click heroes that other races get (for example lysander, Mephiston, Logan, Vulkan all of who don't care what they're fighting since they will probably win). In their choice combats, the Phoenix Lords completely destroy (for example, Fuegan against tanks, Asurmen against cc elites or Jain Zar against marine squads). They don't all kill everything and take extreme punishment, but then again they don't cost as much as those who do.

Avatar of Khaine. Yriel. Doom/Guide/Fortune Seer. Autarch. Those are all better choices that the PL's. The thing that makes the PL's much weaker is the fact that you can get a portion of their abilities (in the form of an exarch) for an even lower cost.

The basic Eldar concept is force multiplication. All power weapons (banshees), all melta guns (fire dragons). This is where the Farseer really sets itself apart from the rest of the HQ choices from ANY of the codecis. It multiplies your forces that have already been multiplied. Doomed Targets, Fortuned Tough Bodies. No Single PL can give the same versatility. With 2 powers and the best psychic defense in the game you pay 135 points.

How often do you go to battle without a farseer?

Avatar: can't be transported nor can he hide in a unit.

Yriel is vulnerable to instant death even by S6 and 7 weapons which have been becoming more common. He is also easier to kill with massed fire and doesn't get his armor save against AP3 weapons.

Farseer falls in the same catagory as Eldrad in being a good support character. But should any of those psychic powers fail, they are near worthless (though the witchblade is still powerful).

Autarchs are not exactly powerful combat characters and are vulnerable to ID like Yriel. The reserve manipulation is good however if you intend to use reserves often. Otherwise it's just a perk.

On the flip side of getting exarch powers from an exarch instead of a PL, you also can lose your exarch rather easily due to wound allocation. In addition if you were to field an exarch with the squad, you can then subtract that cost from the phoenix lord as you would have purchased him anyway, so you are paying the extra points to upgrade the exarch to a PL.

Yes, farseers are very good at force multiplication. However, if someone wants to field a good combat character, they shouldn't be told just to go find another army or use Yriel. In addition remember that doom cannot be used on embarked units, which tends to make it hard to use when you want to against mechanized enemies.

And no, PLs do not give the same versatility/amplification that a farseer does. They also are much harder to kill and do not require psychic tests to be powerful.

Also, I have gone to battle without a seer. I've actually been decently successful. I would say that playing without a farseer is easily viable.

in regards to the PL in a unit of harliquins to take advantage of their ablilty to hide from shooting, couldn't the opponent just hit them with a barrage weapon, no LOS means no test to see them right?

Ail-Shan wrote:Avatar: can't be transported nor can he hide in a unit.

Yriel is vulnerable to instant death even by S6 and 7 weapons which have been becoming more common. He is also easier to kill with massed fire and doesn't get his armor save against AP3 weapons.

Farseer falls in the same catagory as Eldrad in being a good support character. But should any of those psychic powers fail, they are near worthless (though the witchblade is still powerful).

Autarchs are not exactly powerful combat characters and are vulnerable to ID like Yriel. The reserve manipulation is good however if you intend to use reserves often. Otherwise it's just a perk.

On the flip side of getting exarch powers from an exarch instead of a PL, you also can lose your exarch rather easily due to wound allocation. In addition if you were to field an exarch with the squad, you can then subtract that cost from the phoenix lord as you would have purchased him anyway, so you are paying the extra points to upgrade the exarch to a PL.

Yes, farseers are very good at force multiplication. However, if someone wants to field a good combat character, they shouldn't be told just to go find another army or use Yriel. In addition remember that doom cannot be used on embarked units, which tends to make it hard to use when you want to against mechanized enemies.

And no, PLs do not give the same versatility/amplification that a farseer does. They also are much harder to kill and do not require psychic tests to be powerful.

Also, I have gone to battle without a seer. I've actually been decently successful. I would say that playing without a farseer is easily viable.

With LD 10 the psychic tests don't usually fail but you make a good point, without the powers they don't do anything. And I agree with you, Eldar lists without farseers are viable, notable Foot Eldar with avatars, or full reserve armies with dual autarchs. But overall those lists types tend to be weaker than standard mech with doom/guide/fortune seers.

Let's place a hypothetical "value" on a character. Value is made up of Usefulness, Versatility and Points Cost.

Usefulness is what these units do in isolation.

Versatility is how this usefulness fits in with the rest of your list.

Points Cost is what are you paying to get Usefulness and Versatility.

Choose your PL and answer the above 3 questions. "If" I were to play a PL it would be Asurmen. I think he is the best of them followed by Jhain Zar.

Usefulness: He IS useful. Good stats(7/7/4/4/3/7/4 10 2+). Invul Save. Fleet. Fearless. Force Weapon. Defend. Bladestorm.

Versatility: Can only join one type of asepct squad(if you really want use out of his force multiplication). Other than his own stats, he doesn't give you anything you don't have access to already.

Points Cost: 230. That in and of itself is not very expensive for him. Awesome abilities, good looking stats, pretty narrow application but still good.

Let's calculate the cost of an exarch: 12 + 15 + 15 + (5 or 10) = at worst 52 points. You don't get an EW. You don't use a FoC slot. Your application is as narrow as a PL. You don't get the good stats. You don't get an Invul save or 2+ save.

You have to check wether the VALUE of the unit is in balance with what you have available to you. An aspect equipped autarch is probably as good as a PL in terms of stats etc, AND you get the reserves bonus. All but Khaine and Yriel are more versatile, all the other choices have better points cost and are at least as useful as each of the PL's.

How you should run your PL's is as follows, Run Asurmen as the exarch for a normal 9 man squad of DA's. He's cost has now effectively been reduced by 45 points. This leaves him costing 185. Now we are looking at a pretty good value for money guy, cheaper, if not better, than Eldrad. But it's still 185 points of really only meh. This can be applied to Howling Banshees (though other than stats, the exarch is not that big a cost vs PL as with Asurmen), or any other aspect and PL for that matter.

I understand where you are coming from, the PL's aren't terrible. But why would you settle for something when there is clearly something better available to you?

Edit, removed useless text.

Lord Harrab wrote:in regards to the PL in a unit of harliquins to take advantage of their ablilty to hide from shooting, couldn't the opponent just hit them with a barrage weapon, no LOS means no test to see them right?

Veil of tears works against "any unit that wishes to target" the harlequin unit. A barrage weapon still has to "target" the unit, so it's still affected; LoS doesn't matter.

The only thing that bypasses veil of tears is the Daemonhunters null rod (according to the GW DH FAQ).

or people deliberately trying to target the next unit over and hope it scatters into them. shadey, but totally legal. Happens to me all the time.