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Wraithlordmechanic wrote:I don't understand why everyone liked legion. In he end it all came down to
Spoiler:
a bunch of xenos getting them to turn traitor by showing them a psychic slide show of the future. The Alpha legion went along with this despite the fact that these xenos would like nothing better than to topple the empire that's going around kicking in everyone's door. The imperium was just as xenocidal back then as it is in the 41st millennium- why wouldn't the naturally suspicious Alphas consider that these aliens just wanted to start a civil war among their common enemy? Not only that but once the mind movie was over and they sent out the "we're betraying humanity" memo no one who didn't watch the picture show thought to ask why? That ending made want to go back in time and stop myself from reading the book.
Yeah I know what you mean, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't a well thought out written book. As Nos says, they were loyal to their Primarch. We don't know what happens after, maybe their is a cull like the other Legions.
I think one of the messages as we move will be that Chaos tricked everyone, even the Cabal.
Reading the first heretic you also realise that EVERY legion that turned had word bearers spreadnig the "truth" for up to 40 years before the events of the heresy.
Personally, I thought Legion was the worst book of the series. I thought that the first Angels book was a little slow in the beginning, but picked up speed well enough.
BftA was also a little slow, but the book wasn't THAT bad.
Believe me, read the last Grey Knight book...oh did I want to drop kick an author in the face for THAT one...
Anyway, I think it all comes down to personal taste. I thought that Legion was WAY too complex for its own good. Like the author, whom I usually really enjoy, was trying to be complex simply because he was writing a book about the Alpha Legion.
I also found the reason for their "fall" to be a bit silly. Why in the WARP would Astartes believe xenos? Any other Legion would have killed the Cabal just for SUGGESTING that the Emperor might have different motives. The AL would have captured them, and tortured the xenos filth until they had the information that they wanted.
Oh well...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/05 14:00:02
I can still remember when a box of 30 Space Marines was $30.00. Now THAT'S old school! In fact, I started playing in the Rogue Trader days...yes, I am that old. Played Warhammer Fantasy for years before Rogue Trader even came out...
6,800 Pts. Ultramarines, 1,500 Pts. Deathwatch, 1,000 Pts. Black Templars, 1,000 Pts. Blood Ravens, 1,000 Pts. Emperors Children, 2,000 Pts. Word Bearers, 3,500 Pts. Eldar (Alaitoc or Biel-tan), 2,000 Pts. Tau, 2,000 Pts. Sisters of Battle, 999 Pts. of Thousand Sons, 1,000 Points Dark Eldar, 1,000 Points Adeptus Arbites, 1,000 Points Freebooters, 1,000 Points "Last Chancers", 1,000 Points Tyranids, 1,000 Points Necrons
2,500 Pts. Brotherhood, 2,000 Pts. Undead, 2,000 Pts. Sylvan Kin Elves, 2,000 Pts. Empire of Dust, 3,000 Pts. Orcs with Goblin Allies
5 Necromunda Gangs, 10 Mordheim Warbands, and 5 Frostgrave warbands
Wraithlordmechanic wrote:I don't understand why everyone liked legion. In he end it all came down to
Spoiler:
a bunch of xenos getting them to turn traitor by showing them a psychic slide show of the future. The Alpha legion went along with this despite the fact that these xenos would like nothing better than to topple the empire that's going around kicking in everyone's door. The imperium was just as xenocidal back then as it is in the 41st millennium- why wouldn't the naturally suspicious Alphas consider that these aliens just wanted to start a civil war among their common enemy? Not only that but once the mind movie was over and they sent out the "we're betraying humanity" memo no one who didn't watch the picture show thought to ask why? That ending made want to go back in time and stop myself from reading the book.
See, that's your take on it.
The biggest 'problem' with LEGION is that it left a LOT of things unresolved. (It really needs a sequel!)
Including the Legion's ultimate motivations AND plans.
So, the Legion may think that they can win out "For the Emperor" by doing what they think is best. Including a nice double screw job on the Cabal, eventually, for all we know.
Apparently though, that may not have worked out according to their plan in the end, clearly!
nosferatu1001 wrote:Reading the first heretic you also realise that EVERY legion that turned had word bearers spreadnig the "truth" for up to 40 years before the events of the heresy.
Which is why they might not be loyal to the Emperor after all
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/05 14:35:11
Wraithlordmechanic wrote:I don't understand why everyone liked legion. In he end it all came down to
Spoiler:
a bunch of xenos getting them to turn traitor by showing them a psychic slide show of the future. The Alpha legion went along with this despite the fact that these xenos would like nothing better than to topple the empire that's going around kicking in everyone's door. The imperium was just as xenocidal back then as it is in the 41st millennium- why wouldn't the naturally suspicious Alphas consider that these aliens just wanted to start a civil war among their common enemy? Not only that but once the mind movie was over and they sent out the "we're betraying humanity" memo no one who didn't watch the picture show thought to ask why? That ending made want to go back in time and stop myself from reading the book.
See, that's your take on it.
The biggest 'problem' with LEGION is that it left a LOT of things unresolved. (It really needs a sequel!)
Including the Legion's ultimate motivations AND plans.
So, the Legion may think that they can win out "For the Emperor" by doing what they think is best. Including a nice double screw job on the Cabal, eventually, for all we know.
Apparently though, that may not have worked out according to their plan in the end, clearly!
I guess it doesn't completely say that's why they turned traitor but it's pretty heavily implied. Certainly was the seed of the Heresy for them.
Battle of the Abyss has been the weakest of the series so far for me. Completely by the numbers HH action.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I guess it doesn't completely say that's why they turned traitor but it's pretty heavily implied. Certainly was the seed of the Heresy for them.
.
It's been a year or two since I read it but as i recall that was what happened exactly prior to them turning on the rest of the imperial fleet. I don't remember anything else which could have been such a strong influence. If there was one please remind me.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I guess it doesn't completely say that's why they turned traitor but it's pretty heavily implied. Certainly was the seed of the Heresy for them.
.
It's been a year or two since I read it but as i recall that was what happened exactly prior to them turning on the rest of the imperial fleet. I don't remember anything else which could have been such a strong influence. If there was one please remind me.
There wasn't but Alpharius is saying maybe something else happened too...
There isn't enough 'known to us' that would adequately explain the "why" of it all.
So, if is still an unknown.
My theory is that the Alpha Legion think that they can do BOTH of these things - save the Emperor and Humanity AND eliminate the Cabal and their meddling Xenos ways too.
Of course, they may be too clever by half, and they may have bitten off more than they can chew...
There isn't enough 'known to us' that would adequately explain the "why" of it all.
So, if is still an unknown.
My theory is that the Alpha Legion think that they can do BOTH of these things - save the Emperor and Humanity AND eliminate the Cabal and their meddling Xenos ways too.
Of course, they may be too clever by half, and they may have bitten off more than they can chew...
It sounds like you're filling in the blanks with your own wishful thinking. It is the writers job to explain why the Legion turned (not the reader's) and he failed to do so sufficiently therefore we have a poorly written book.
I still think it was one of the worst endings I've ever read. And what came before the ending wasn't great either. The whole draw of the book for me was learning why they turned and the only reason presented was that "some aliens told them to". It would be like if a regiment of of US soldiers in afghanistan started attacking friendly forces because the afghani leaders told them to.
I have to add to this thread rather than start a new one (i'm sure ALPHARIUS will forgive me).
I loved this book, I am now officially an ALPHA LEGION fan, i used to think of them as a non-entity. Their reason for supposedly changing to Horus' side silly and petulant, simply because they didn't get on with old Roboute.
This is not the case, second of all it left so many carefully crafted questions. The moment at the end of the book, where the twins stare at one another, communicating in that way that subtle way. The Legions talents at subversion, diversion, espionage, intelligence and sedition. I am utterly convinced they are at heart Loyalists, they are fighting an Ancient Primordal Enemy which no one is sure can be defeated. They are engineering something, and none of us, even the Chaos Gods themselves know what the Alpha and Omega will do. They pride themselves on Knowledge and Philosphy, they are the most balanced SM Legion, and the youngest but arguable most mature. They are playing a long game and are trying to bring about something.....Maybe even the Star Child Prophecy?
But the options they have been given are side with Horus and Kill humanity in a "Humane" way by destroying the race with 3 generations. Or Side with the Emperor defeat Horus and watch the Imperium slowly descend and stagnate before being snuffed out over 10,000 years? They are looking for another way, a third option. They are percieved to have sided with Chaos because they haven't openly declared for the Imperium.
To save the Emperors Ideal, they may have to sacrafice the Imperium, but they will save humanity. Plus it maybe easier for them to achieve their aims outside of the Imperiums Perview. A wonderfully complex and interesting idea, the world is not Black and White so why should 40k be any different.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/06 14:07:27
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
Meh, i don't get why people think that Legion was overly complex. It was ok but not particularly impressive. Worst thing about the book is the amount of Alpha Legion fanboys it spawned who claim that their pet legion is still super duper loyal to the emprah, despite being obviously deceived by a bunch of aliens and/or chaos.
I liked Legion quite a bit, lots of info on a relatively unknown legion and on the Imperial Army, which has been lacking in HH books. I would like to mention one thing about Battle For the Abyss... was it lackluster, sure. But now, til forever, you can look any smurf player dead in the eye and truthfully say that the only reason Ultramar is still there is thanks to the World Eaters and Thousand Sons.
mwnciboo wrote:But the options they have been given are side with Horus and Kill humanity in a "Humane" way by destroying the race with 3 generations. Or Side with the Emperor defeat Horus and watch the Imperium slowly descend and stagnate before being snuffed out over 10,000 years? They are looking for another way, a third option. They are percieved to have sided with Chaos because they haven't openly declared for the Imperium.
To save the Emperors Ideal, they may have to sacrafice the Imperium, but they will save humanity. Plus it maybe easier for them to achieve their aims outside of the Imperiums Perview. A wonderfully complex and interesting idea, the world is not Black and White so why should 40k be any different.
Exactly. I don't see why people are taking the events in Legion at face value. I keep seeing references to "the reason the Alphas fell". The big question of the book is not the reason they fell, but whether they ever fell at all.
Ok, so some aliens told the Alphas to turn traitor. This would be the end of humanity, but would save all other life in the universe. Seemingly the Alphas go along with their plan. But what are the greatest skills of the Legion? Lying and misinformation. Been a while since I read the book, but I don't think Alpharius ever explicitly states "Yes, we will follow your plan." And even if he did, are you going to believe anything he says? What do the Alphas care about saving the lives of a bunch of aliens, especially if it causes humanity to be wiped out?
Alpharius (and probably every other member of the legion) would have recognized this for what it is: a false dichotomy. The aliens offer only two choices, but if you think about it, there are more options available. The Alphas would almost certainly choose to follow their own path, rather than follow someone else's carefully laid-out plan.
Not to sound like too much of a conspiracy nut, but the appearance of them falling to chaos suggests that they have, in fact, not fallen to chaos. Whichever side they appear to work for is the side where the Alphas are most trusted with sensitive information. Which is where they can do the most damage. If they had actually fallen to chaos, they would appear to remain loyal, to stay close to their true enemies.
War is delightful to those who have no experience of it. ~Desiderius Erasmus
It was interesting at least,and the spy guy for the Cabal was pretty cool,I liked how his best weapon was sweet taking out his backside out of trouble.
But alot of complexity,didn't like the little love story bit,and didn't really like the pre-teen psyker girls,sounded a bit like a generic anime or something.
In short,it was good,but didn't feel like a HH book.
It's so different.
Wraithlordmechanic wrote: I still think it was one of the worst endings I've ever read. And what came before the ending wasn't great either. The whole draw of the book for me was learning why they turned and the only reason presented was that "some aliens told them to". It would be like if a regiment of of US soldiers in afghanistan started attacking friendly forces because the afghani leaders told them to.
So no, not good stuff.
Isn't that kind of the point of the horus heresy though?
At least it's different to 'some daemons told them to' or 'another primarch told them to'. So far it's been the most unique reason for a Legion to turn.
Wraithlordmechanic wrote:I don't understand why everyone liked legion. In he end it all came down to
Spoiler:
a bunch of xenos getting them to turn traitor by showing them a psychic slide show of the future. The Alpha legion went along with this despite the fact that these xenos would like nothing better than to topple the empire that's going around kicking in everyone's door. The imperium was just as xenocidal back then as it is in the 41st millennium- why wouldn't the naturally suspicious Alphas consider that these aliens just wanted to start a civil war among their common enemy? Not only that but once the mind movie was over and they sent out the "we're betraying humanity" memo no one who didn't watch the picture show thought to ask why? That ending made want to go back in time and stop myself from reading the book.
But its so deep and works on so many layers! Yes, realy...it does...*coughs*
Not only that but once the mind movie was over and they sent out the "we're betraying humanity" memo no one who didn't watch the picture show thought to ask why? That ending made want to go back in time and stop myself from reading the book.
, 
, 
, and a little 
and now VC
