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Rurouni Benshin wrote:Force Dome, while useful in some situations, probably isn't as useful against Orks,

In my experience, Dreadnoughts are quite capable of holding their own in CC against Orks. With a CC Power Weapon, they're sure to kill a couple of Orks in CC, and the Heavy Flamer makes for the perfect Pre-Assault Shooting weapon. Unless he's got a Power Klaw, that's one squad of Orks that's going to be tied up for awhile.

Orks, on average, can't Penetrate Armor 14, and even then have trouble Glancing it, so you can likely get away without EA because of it.

On the Tactical Squads, I'd take a Flamer over the Meltagun, and give the Sgt at least a Power Weapon. Change the weapon on the Razorback to the TL Heavy Flamer instead, and you'll be golden.

As for the Land Speeders, I'm pretty sure you mean the normal Land Speeder, and not the Land Speeder Storm. Both are very different with different capabilities. LSS is meant for carrying Scouts around. Otherwise, the weapon loadout is pretty good.

On Heavy Support, the TFC is an okay choice. I personally prefer the Whirlwind. Both would suffice though.

You were right on the storms, I was thinking of the SW Land Speeder Tornado (I use tornado to refer to any speeder with 2 weapons beside typhoon) and used the wrong word. I did correct this.

This list was NOT tailored to be anti-ork. Please read the last sentence of my post. I take it as a HUGE insult when an opponent custom tailors his list against me & will refuse to play him or just pull out a different army. Also please read my signature.

The list was designed to be able to handle orks, as well as anything else that might be put on the table. So while yes orks were in mind (I can't really forget what the topic of the thread was) I also took into account every other army.

imweasel wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Taking HB spam units is an a heavy cost for space marine players. Takes up a slot, and isn't cheap. HB dev squad costs vanilla marines 150 points, which is the same as a ML squad. Why take an inferior weapon when you can have the duel purpose ML? And the small blast is often better than the HB against big blobs or bunched up infantry.

The only HB that you see in most competitive lists these days is on predators and land speeder typhoons, the reason is they cost too much compared to what you could be taking. The base cost of any marine unit is usually pretty high, so why take a sub par gun?

Why even take an inferior unit like dev squads.

Take 2 dakka preds. For 170pts you can get 4 hb's AND 2 ac's in a vehicle.

I was responding to the guy who talked about running 4 dev guys with heavy bolters...

Also, dakka preds aren't super great against all ork lists. Against foot lists you aren't really killing much even if every shot kills (which it won't). Against a typical mech list (wagons) the shots bounce off due to AV 14 or KFF if you do get side shots. Dakka preds are decent at downing koptas and trucks, but so isn't just about anythings.

And for the record, ML devs are just fine in regular marines. 4 S8 anti tank rounds or 4 small blasts is pretty deadly, just ask space wolf players (sure, they can do it cheaper and better, doesn't mean that CSM shouldn't also do it). I personally take 2 dakka preds and 1 min sized ML dev squad in my lists. I hide the devs between the two tanks, so only their targets can get a clear shot at them.


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camboyaz wrote:

Rurouni Benshin wrote:3. Bring Lots of Armor: Rhinos and Razorbacks will help protect your Infantry, and allow you to shoot them from a distance until they get close enough for your Flamers. Land Raiders are great as well, since they have no regular Shooting Weapon that's higher than Str 8. I personally like Redeemers over Crusaders, and there's one simple reason why. If your Land Raider isn't moving it's maximum distance each turn, then you're not earning the points on it fast enough. I know this contradicts the "gunline theory" of fighting an Ork army, but if your Terminators (or whatever passengers you're carrying) are sitting in a Land Raider for more than 1 turn without seeing some sort of combat, then you're wasting points. And if you're that worried about your Land Raider only getting to shoot once on the first turn, then rest assured that from the second turn on, you're likely to get to shoot at least 2, if not all of your weapons. More often than not, if you move your max distance on Turn 1, you're likely to be close enough so that you won't have to move more than 6" to get within Template Range of your enemy. Plus, your Terminators should be in the middle of CC by then.

Do not do this! In theory, hordes do bad againest vechicales. But, I can assure you, every Nob WILL have a power Klaw. He will put his Nob Squad in a Trukk, and your beloved Preds, Vindi, Rhinos, and maybe a LR will be all gone by turn 3! One exception to his is a Razor with Twin Linked Assualt Cannon! Cuts down the boyz before they get to it!

Are you assuming that the truk will live, assuming that when the truck dies it doesn't scatter, assuming when it explodes (which it does 2/3 of the time when destroyed) it doesn't bring the squad below fearless and pins the unit, and that the opponent is dumb enough to still be in the area with any units he cares about? 1 Nob with a PK against AV 10 in a vehicle that most likely moved is not good odds and not good enough reason to not mech up. Nob gets 4 attacks on the charge, 2 hits, needs 3+ to pen, needs 4+ to immobilize or destroy... Sure the boyz could help with glances... but that is pretty bad odds honestly.

You are then proposing a unit that only has 24 inch range (which means you must be in close quarters early against orks) that at BEST kills 4 orks a turn (24 points yippee), and needs a 5+ to pen the crappiest vehicle in the game (though a glance can destroy, it isn't good odds)

@ notabot187,

Are you assuming the Trukk will die? If the Ork player is any good, he will know how to hide his Trukks, especially if rolling up on a SM army doing the whole 'retreating gunline' thing. If he's an idiot and exposes the Trukk on a turn he doesn't charge, then you've got him, but a good Ork player won't.

What you want and NEED are guns with decent strength and range. ML Dev squads are a decent choice as has been stated before. Don't expect them to crack a Battlewagon from the front, but any other vehicles that pop their heads out will go down. Rifleman Dreads are good anti-vehicle, but again, not against Battlewagons. A good Ork player will have the front armor of his wagon facing anything that can threaten it, so you really need some mobile melta to deal with it. Either a Speeder/Attack Bike/ or Drop Pod squad will do it. You can expect to lose whatever you used to pop the Wagon, but the trade-off can often be worth it.

Above all, DO NOT get in face until you have no alternative. Even with a TH/SS Terminator squad. You may feel they're wasted points sitting in a Landraider for a few turns, but they'll still be alive. How much of a waste will they be if you jump in too early and they go down? The volume of attacks that a mob of Orks can throw down is impressive, and the 1's will come up, believe me. When you lose an assault termi to an attack from a 6pt Boy, it stings. Wait until you're confident you can lay down the pain, or are going to get charged next turn, and then rush in. against Orks, you have to wait until you can assault on your terms, if you do it on his, you're toast.

lots of misile launchers in tac squads and some good close combat termies bring them in close wilst hammering them at range then charge them at the last second

i really don't like the TH/SS termies.. the lose their ability to shoot for only the ability of smashing tanks more easy.. if you take them with TH's.. a power fist an storm bolter are far better IMO only sad about Initiative but who cares..

Personally, Im not scared of Terminators at all. When I used to play CSM I was affraid of them, but with Orks, nope. Its too easy for me to either get them stuck in, or just kill them outright, yes even the TH/SS termies, sure they can kill a boss easy enough, but doing that, they also die in the attempt. Now something that does make me think "oh crap so thats where they went" are Sternguard. Those guys can shoot anything down and with little effort. Not to mention when I assault them (or if I screwed up/unlucky they assault me) they kill way more then I like.

Just something to keep in mind. Also LR are really tough for Orks to pop, but again, tailoring a list makes you a bit of a jerk, so really do what feels right.



Also Notabot - I know competitively the missile launcher is better then a HB for many reasons. But HB are different and fun to use. Also like I said, when that opponent uses that squad, it really pumps out the damage against my boyz. If theres going to be templates dropping, Im spread full out. So a ML template will tag 1 maybe 2 boyz in the process. But against a crap load of HB Im just SOL. They can really do some damage to boyz, which can be the biggest problem for alot of players facing Orks.

Joske De Veteraan wrote:the lose their ability to shoot for only the ability of smashing tanks more easy\

Yes absolutely. There is no point of changing 5+ invuln to a 3+ invuln. That's just something we should ignore. . .

King, TH/SS termies scare Nob Bikers. Tons of ID combined with a 2+ 3++. Put them in a LR w/ Chaplain for preffered enemy on the charge & they will Eat those nobs. However vs. a mob of boyz they don't do much due to overwhelming numbers.
However I do agree he should NOT be tailoring a list. It not only makes you a jerk but also a worse player as now you're playing rock paper scissors & basically knowing in advance what your opponent will be throwing out.

Irondog wrote:@ notabot187,

Are you assuming the Trukk will die? If the Ork player is any good, he will know how to hide his Trukks, especially if rolling up on a SM army doing the whole 'retreating gunline' thing. If he's an idiot and exposes the Trukk on a turn he doesn't charge, then you've got him, but a good Ork player won't.

It isn't really possible to reliably hide a large model like the trukk every turn. I've played orks a number of years, and the truks die. The boyz squad inside is pretty underwhelming, but if you put nobz squads in them you are skimping on protection for them. Most good ork players run their nob squads in battlewagons. They make the boyz walk or even ride more wagons. The occasional trukk missile with a boy squad or even meganobs isn't too bad, but most people assume the trukk is going to die if shot at, and don't rely on that squad overly much.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

Joske De Veteraan wrote:the lose their ability to shoot for only the ability of smashing tanks more easy\

Yes absolutely. There is no point of changing 5+ invuln to a 3+ invuln. That's just something we should ignore. . .

King, TH/SS termies scare Nob Bikers. Tons of ID combined with a 2+ 3++. Put them in a LR w/ Chaplain for preffered enemy on the charge & they will Eat those nobs. However vs. a mob of boyz they don't do much due to overwhelming numbers.
However I do agree he should NOT be tailoring a list. It not only makes you a jerk but also a worse player as now you're playing rock paper scissors & basically knowing in advance what your opponent will be throwing out.

Agreed, against nob bikers TH/SS termies would be pretty decent. I personally dont like nob bikers as they are a pretty big points sink, sure they do their job really well but its a preference thing for me, so like I said, Im not scared of those guys

If I were a SM player and going up against nob bikers, Id be dropping missiles on them from everywhere possible. I dont care how you cut it, missiles will be far more effective then charging them with a few terminators.

Too busy reading input from other posters, but i give you these:

-Green tide sucks against mechanized. They dont have enough stuff to deal with armor moving cruising speed.

-Charge them first, deny them FC, win 1st assault combat and they lose lots of attacks every turn.

-Flank them. Orks do no want getting shot from the sides and rear, especially when they get no cover saves!

-Cover save ignoring weapons like flamer templates, dragonfire bolts and castellan missiles wreck them.

-Divide them. Put some delicious distractions from table edge to table edge, you may need to sacrifice juicy units you have to divide them and punish them for their lack of mobility.

So due to a combination of you people's advice the Imperium has again prevailed..
My SM stopped the Waaagh in his tracks because of a new tactic I never used before..

I had put my redeemer in the middle of my force flanked by 2 rhinos w Tac squad W flamer HB
assault squad on the left devestators w Lascannons on the right and pod in reserve..

i rushed the land raider straight to the middle of the ork horde.. the rihno shot their missiles after moving 6" destroying one trukk each!! lucky me..
with the boys disembarked from their trukks my redeemer came straight in the middle of them.. two hellstorm templates wiped out almost all of them.. termies disembarked and killed the warboss but took a heavy loss (I saw that coming..) my two tac squads dissembarked from the rihnos and the one on the left took and held an objectif for the rest of the game.. the right one shot on a burna squad and killed them all before they got in reach but they had to fall back due to a Nob squad killed 7 of them in CC

i deepstriked my dread w HF and reg flamer right behind his deffs but he exploded after wrecking a deffdread..
when the dust settled my tac squad ws still the objectif and due to them i won the game.. If there was a 6 and 7 trn i would have wied the orks from the table..
but that was not my honour this day..


One step closer to purge the galaxy from the foul Xeno scum...

1 step closer, and about a bagillion to go

Congrats on the win. I rarely see someone get the chance to flamestorm 2 squads on either side, I would put money on it, your friend wont make that mistake twice very nicely done

On List Tailoring:
While I do agree that list tailoring is something that shouldn't be done, and is generally frowned upon (operative word being "generally"), if both players are in agreement on how they will play their respective lists, I don't see it as big of a deal. Provided the OP is giving his Ork player/friend a chance to know what he is running up against (which I'm guessing he does), I see less of an issue with it. Can Orks be tailored to perform better against SM? I'm sure they can, but how, I wouldn't know.

Generally speaking though, I would agree that it is wrong. However, the OP had asked for help against fighting Orks, so therefore, aside from strategical advice, there is the obvious advice of what sort of weapons would be more effective. The inherent problem though, at least that I see when it comes to making an All-Comers list (which I do with most of the games I play), is that in order for them to be effective, they tend to be WAAC lists as well, or least have some WAAC attributes. And then, depending on the crowd of people you game with, you run the risk of being known as TFG who always plays that same list against every army.

So in light of all that, I think most people will list tailor to a degree in friendly games. A list is judged by the amount of obvious weapon/unit choices that would most effective against certain armies as far as it is being considered as "tailored". For example, if I know I'm playing against Orks, and I bring a Flamer with each and every squad possible, then I would see a logical reason for my opponent to accuse me of tailoring. However, if I bring Flamers in only half of my squads, and some other weapon with the other half, it becomes less of an issue.

My question to the crowd is: "Where do you draw the line for what's considered a 'tailored list' and 'not a tailored list'"?

I'm interested in what some of you have to say about this, especially from Shas'O Dorian and Notabot. You've both put in valuable input on the thread already, and would like to hear more on how you feel about this.

Back on Topic:
To reiterate what Notabot said about the Razorback's TL Assault Cannon, I fail to see how it can be more effective against Orks than the TL Heavy Flamer. Also, playing with the percentages of the vehicle being assaulted, you're likely getting 1 Penetrating hit, but even then you have only a 33% of destroying it. And guess what, once the vehicle is destroyed, that same squad is about to get shot up by the Marines disembarking it, and if they're smart, they're about to get assaulted as well. Yes, I do know that most, if not all, Nobz come with a Power Klaw. However, I'd still take my chances with the vehicles. You having to assault my vehicle to destroy it only means that I get to assault you on the turn after.

Also, I'd like to reiterate something of my own theory when it comes to Dedicated Transports. If the transport isn't bringing it's passengers towards combat, you are wasting your points, ESPECIALLY IN THE CASE WITH ORKS. Waiting in cover and biding time could work in objective games, however (at least in my mind) it goes against the theory of playing a horde-like army, such as Orks. The strength behind playing an Ork army is the high volume of attacks and wounds they get compared to more point focused armies (like MEQ's). To hide a squad (or more) of boyz to wait for an opportune time to get to an objective is counter productive to how the theory of an ideal Ork list should work (IMHO).

So go ahead and hide your trukks from my long range ML's and Lascannons. That only means I get to focus fire on what I can see and hit more easily. And the longer you wait in cover, the more chances I will get to whittle down the toughest units you have on the board with my focus fire. In my experiences, any Ork player (that uses Mech) and doesn't push his army forward every turn will not beat me. Whether it's my LC Terminators cutting Boyz to shreds, or my TH/SS Terminators pounding every Nob to the ground, or even my Sternguard hunting down Lootas that are hiding in buildings, I WILL find you eventually, and smoke you out of your hiding places. [/Silly SM Smacktalk]

Now, to be quite frank, and I mean this with complete sincerity... If you're afraid of your infantry and vehicles dying too easily, then you probably made the wrong choice in playing Orks. Just sayin'...

KingCracker wrote:1 step closer, and about a bagillion to go

Congrats on the win. I rarely see someone get the chance to flamestorm 2 squads on either side, I would put money on it, your friend wont make that mistake twice very nicely done

i know.. but it was a very very lucky shot that buth trukks were put out of duty..


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Now, to be quite frank, and I mean this with complete sincerity... If you're afraid of your infantry and vehicles dying too easily, then you probably made the wrong choice in playing Orks. Just sayin'...

I consider list tailoring to be anytime:
You build to take on one specific army / build.
You build your list AFTER you have seen / heard what your opponent has.
Claiming to be running a "fluff" list that is odly effective against what your opponent has (This has happened to me twice)

I see list tailoring as playing rock-paper-scissors (As noted in my sig)
Player A.) "Hmmm you are bringing green tide orks (Rock)? Welll I'll bring tons of flamers / large blast(Paper)"
Player B.) "Well if you do that I'll bring nob bkers so I have fewer models more spread out (Scissors)"
Where does it end? The player who gets in the last adjustment has a significant advantage.

Tailoring lists doesn't make you a better player. If anything it makes you worse because you begin to rely on your army build more than your tactics.

These are my main issues. I know you get a reputation as TFG for bringing the same army list against everything because they do look WAAC. I have a bit of that reputation myself but I see it as I have a better understanding of how to build an effective army that can handle a multitude of different threats equally well. It may not be fluffy but it makes good tactical sense & isn't that what you're supposed to do?

I've also had a bad experience with list tailors. I used to play primarily Tau & people would just bring loads of fast CC units & bum rush me. Sure I could counter but the whole game was an uphill battle because their army was specifically built to beat mine. Then one day I showed up with nob bikers & my opponent had the nerve to ask me if he could re-write his list because of this new insight. I refused and had him tabled on turn 3.

What i don't consider list tailoring:
Learning from past mistakes.
I.E. your army faces a heavy mech list & get's demolished because you need more AT. Realizing this you swap out a few flamers/ plasma for melta. This is learning from experience and I applaud it. However it's a very fine line from tweaking to be more effective Vs something you were weak against & swapping everything Anti-infantry out for anti-melta because you know you will be playing the same opponent next week.

Joske De Veteraan wrote:

Rurouni Benshin wrote:On List Tailoring:

Now, to be quite frank, and I mean this with complete sincerity... If you're afraid of your infantry and vehicles dying too easily, then you probably made the wrong choice in playing Orks. Just sayin'...

in case you haven't noticed I am a marine player i don't care abot Ork player filosofie
I just needed advice to crush the hell out of them..

Yes, I did notice that. My comments were for the general readers of the thread that happen to play Orks. But yes, I knew you were a SM player.

@ Shas:

I understand what you're saying, and for a time, there would be only 1 list that I would bring as well. The very same list that I would play in some tournaments, with those same WAAC attributes. And needless to say, I eventually earned myself a reputation (not as TFG, mind you), but as the guy that likes to bring "that kind of list". In my case, there was a period of time that I really enjoyed playing SM Bikers. Eventually, I earned a reputation as being the "Bike Guy" at my LGS. No one really frowned on it, since no one else had as extensive as a Bike army as I did, at least not with the Ultramarine paint scheme. Also, mind you, I do not play White Scars (a SM Chapter dedicated to Bikes, both in strategy and fluff) and nor do I play Dark Angels (an army with their own codex who are based around the strategies of using Bikes and other Fast Attack units). It was an original Ultramarines Bike Army, and because of that, I think I was able to get away with playing them the way I did.

However, for me personally, I tend to get bored with playing the same list repetitively, so occasionally I will mix it up a little. I will play fluffy lists on occasion, and then there will be times that I play lists that make no sense fluff wise at all. Do the non-fluffy lists tend to perform better? Absolutely. But I think that is the inherent nature (and problem) with lists built that way.

You mention that playing a list with good tactical sense is what 40 is "supposed to be" (or at least you posed the question). I think the game ought to be what the individual player deems it should be. While your theory about 40K is well and good when playing against the general public (ie - a total stranger you just met at your LGS), I think that it stands to be reasonable that if 2 (or more) players agreed on certain playing conditions, that it could be enjoyable as well.

Here's another question I have for you. What if the fluff actually justified it?

Let's say for example, two players were trying to re-enact a part of the codex's history (We'll use the story of the "Assault on Black Reach", since we're discussing SM vs Orks). Captain Cato Sicarius was sent to quell the Ork invasion, while the Ork Waaaagh campaign knew that they would face human opposition. Baring this in mind, both armies would (IMHO) logically prepare themselves with the best weapons and employ the best tactics possible for fighting each other.

Again, I'm not trying to justify list tailoring at all. I'm just trying to see what and how others (yourself included) see and feel when it comes to doing these sorts of things. I'm still of the opinion that all people list tailor to a degree, except that it's done with most, if not all, parties known. Because if everyone is optimizing their lists against one another, then is it really a debate?

Try thinking you are the ork player. Any learned ork player will have a KFF or even 2. They will target your transports with rokkits (Kan Wall or deffcoptas with saws). These are what you need to watch out for first and for most. I play both Orks and SM and from the ork side Flamers are the worst thing as well as those damn pie plates. A smart ork player has no choice but to take out your priority targets. A Thundercannon will be first on the list and so will a vindicator. I will make sure my suicide buzzcoptas take those out no matter what. Protect your flamers and if he trys to assault just prey you have hurt him enough to make your better initative count. Just a little ramble

If you're re-enactinga "Historical" event such as the AoBR or the Battle for maccrage that's different. At that point I don't see it as an actual game in the traditional sense it's more of a "Hey this event was cool let's have some fun".
Not to say normal games aren't fun I guess I'm trying to say I see games in two ways. A standard game of "Hey let's have a game" and the special cases of "Hey let's do this specific thing for a change of pace"

Can someone explain exactly how are 10-man SM squads fitting into 6 capacity Razorbacks?

Ministry wrote:Can someone explain exactly how are 10-man SM squads fitting into 6 capacity Razorbacks?

They combat squad them, so only 5 can actually ride the thing.

Ministry wrote:Can someone explain exactly how are 10-man SM squads fitting into 6 capacity Razorbacks?

Plungers.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ministry wrote:Can someone explain exactly how are 10-man SM squads fitting into 6 capacity Razorbacks?

Plungers.

Ok, so 4 or 5 of those squads are left behind sloggin or in cover somewhere I guess...they can merge with other Razorback leftovers into a squad?

razorbacks are used (in my army) to carry my devestator squads and a command squad and very rarly me sterngaurds..
and thes squads are all 5 man squads unless you upgrade them.. wich is not the case


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this is off topic but worthy to put in my own topic..

this week i stayed with a friend and we dicided to do a reod to glory campaign
the first battle was the most memorable of them all:
it was a 750 pts battle seize ground..
he had 1 necron lord and 3 10 warriors squads..
i had 2 tac squads w plamsacannon and flamer
1 landspeeder typhoon and a chaplain in termie armour ( we had to make a core army of 500 pts we were not allowed to change during the campaign.. and he will need his termie armour to deepstrike later..)
and 1 scout squad w snipers and a Telion

after turn 2 his lord was dead..
My first ded marine came in Turn FOUR..
we went for tree objectifs.. one was controlled by my tacsquad one was hold by my other tac squad + chaplain but that was contested in turn 5
and it seemed to become a draw but my landspeeder went flatout and to his last warrior squad and contesteded the objective they were holding despiratly for 5 turns
I lost about 5 or 6 tacticals and one wound on the chaplain..

he was almost wiped out.. Lucky form him we agreed to play without the phaseout rule to make his crons a relativ fair match for my marines..

As an ork player things I spite the most are:
1. Flamers.
2. Getting tied up by a weak unit which then dies to leave me open for a maelstrom of fire.
3. When a vehicle explosion kills of my models.

that's not to say they are the most effective way of killing orks, I just hate them the most....

i have also noticed that Misslie launcjer spamming does a great job on Orks

Just saing that Vulkan makes our flamers twin-linked. Also your Th/SS termies.

starsdawn wrote:Just saing that Vulkan makes our flamers twin-linked. Also your Th/SS termies.

Vulkan doesn't wear blue armour doe he??

Vulkan is a greeny, yet he is quite powerful
next time we'll both use a named characters xD haha then my nightbringer will come to action

Joske De Veteraan wrote:

starsdawn wrote:Just saing that Vulkan makes our flamers twin-linked. Also your Th/SS termies.

Vulkan doesn't wear blue armour doe he??

And that stops you from painting him blue how?

He doesn't need to be Vulkan. He can be a counts-as Vulkan.

Bring flamers, and anything that has a high amount of shots. I really wouldn't worry too much about bringing armor, because I can guarantee he'll have tons of Power Klaw. Just sit back and shoot with heavy bolters, autocannons, rocket launchers, anything that drops a nice large template , and flamers for when they get closer.

Charging them is OK, just as long as you wittle them down first, and don't let them charge you first.