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liam0404 wrote:Firstly, FAQ on power from pain has no bearing on this debate whatsoever. That's how that rule works, not WBB.

Are you joking? That FAQ specifically references WBB and makes clear that a model awaiting WBB is not yet actually dead.

liam0404 wrote:Perhaps saying he is dead is a poor choice of words from me. However, you yourself state that he does not count for game purposes while downed.

Bearing this in mind, we now know the following:

He is ignored for ALL game purposes. He is a unit of 1, which cpunts as ignored until WBB tests are taken.

If he is ignored for all game purposes, then how can he be considered attached to ANY unit for that matter?

He can't, is the answer. So when tge sweeping advance finished the rest of the squad (which I agree with you on), the lord is not destroyed, because he counts as ignored.

Your interpretation here still hinges on a misunderstanding of the rules for ICs joining units. When the character joins, he becomes a member of that unit until he leaves it, which he can only do in the movement phase.

If being dropped and awaiting WBB means he is no longer part of the unit, than it also means that regular Necron warriors who drop are no longer part of the unit, which is obviously wrong. Both the Lord and the Warriors who have been dropped and are awaiting WBB are treated the same; they are still members of the unit, and will be dragged along if the unit Falls Back, will teleport with it and get another WBB roll if you 'port them through the Monolith, and will be removed from the table if the unit is removed by a Sweeping Advance.

Timewizard is correct on all counts.

liam0404 wrote: Firstly, FAQ on power from pain has no bearing on this debate whatsoever. That's how that rule works, not WBB.

The FAQ asked how you would handle PFP with models with rules like WBB. I thought it very illustrative. You don't get the pain token until the unit is destroyed.

liam0404 wrote:If he is ignored for all game purposes, then how can he be considered attached to ANY unit for that matter?
He can't, is the answer. So when tge sweeping advance finished the rest of the squad (which I agree with you on), the lord is not destroyed, because he counts as ignored.

Okay. You have a unit of 10 Necron Warriors.
In the movement phase a Necron Lord moves and joins the unit.
In the Shooting phase the Lord and 5 warriors are reduced to 0 wounds.
An undamaged warrior is within 18" of a monolith.
Now you say that the lord, and other models for that matter, once reduced to 0 wounds, don't count for game purposes and aren't part of the unit (of remaining warriors I guess).
Okay your next turn you make your WBB rolls. Lets say the lord and 3 downed warriors fail to make WBB.
The lord is now removed from play, right?
The unit of warriors can teleport through the monolith but those that failed WBB cannot make another roll, and neither can the lord because they are not part of the unit.
Why? Because it is only the unit of warriors and a necron lord that has joined such a unit that can do so.
And your lord and the damaged warriors were "unjoined" when damaged and laid down on the table.
How do we know? Because if the unit was destroyed by a sweeping advance, and only the warriors that were still standing were swept, the rest were no longer part of the unit.
And if they are no longer part of the unit, they can't teleport through with the unit. And WBB and the Necron Monolith break.
So this is then correct?

Well... he's not really. But feel free to play it however you wish.

Think about it. All models are ignored whie waiting for WBB. But a specific example of how to deal with units that have multiple models is listed in the codex. This answers your point about stragglers in the necron squad.

No other comparison is in place for the necron lord, so he is completey free to attempt to WBB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just as a side note unrelated to this, I'm fairly sure you can't use a monolith on a squad with a lord inside. Will need to check.

liam0404 wrote:Well... he's not really. But feel free to play it however you wish.

This is not an argument. I can't just take your word for it; you didn't write the codex. TW's arguments are more consistent with the rules than yours are.

liam0404 wrote:Think about it. All models are ignored whie waiting for WBB. But a specific example of how to deal with units that have multiple models is listed in the codex. This answers your point about stragglers in the necron squad.

No other comparison is in place for the necron lord, so he is completey free to attempt to WBB.

I really don't know what you're talking about here. Models waiting for WBB clearly aren't ignored for "all purposes", as they still count as being part of the unit for Fallback moves and being pulled through a Monolith, for two obvious examples.

When I'm home I.will quote the relevant parts of the WBB rule to you. There's also a few other things that have been raised ill need to check.

liam0404 wrote:When I'm home I.will quote the relevant parts of the WBB rule to you. There's also a few other things that have been raised ill need to check.

Okay, till later then.

Liam - I am afraid you are wrong on this.

The IC joins the unit in the movement phase, and is then a normal member of the unit. During the assault phase he CANNOT leave - so, when downed, he is still part of the Necron warrior unit.

This means, handily, that he CAN be pulled through the Monolith, assuming the unit isnt sweeping advanced. This is because while you ignore the debris for most normal purposes you DONT ignore them for what *unit* they belong to. This is because :

1) The monolith can pull them through. If they werent part of the unit, the monolith could not pull them through. Ergo they ARE part of the unit.

2) You are not told they are NOT part of the unit, therefore they ARE. Simple permission here.

So, if the Necron lord is Sweeping Advanced with his unit, him and the ENTIRE unit are removed. Why? Because otherwise you are trying to use WBB, a special rule, to save the *unit* from Sweeping advance - something you are told you cannot do with sweeping advance.

Jeez. Look what I started. Frankly I just assumed the lord and squad were gone because the IC is considered part of the unit it is with, and the unit is destroyed in a sweeping advance. As per common knowledge rules. They don't take wounds... just... destroyed. So I kindof just went with the thought that the unit should be removed from the board, N.Lord with it.

But I'm not quoting rules because it doesn't bother me that much that someone goofed the rules at their expense.

Diesel, in casual terms, you have it exactly right.

No worries, diesel7170, unless I am misreading you are almost entirely correct.

You are not really to blame, this does come up periodically, regardless.

Ok, so after some consultation (and a bit of open-mindedness on my part!), I will agree with what's been posted here about the Lord not getting WBB.

Having said that, I would hope that most of you can understand that it's not as cut and dry as it seems, and that it's a bit more complex than it ought to be, which is why I got myself mixed up.

There are also (at least) 2 versions of the Necron codex that are used. There is a reprint that changes some wording.

Confusion involving Necrons is something most can understand.

liam0404 wrote:Ok, so after some consultation (and a bit of open-mindedness on my part!), I will agree with what's been posted here about the Lord not getting WBB.

Having said that, I would hope that most of you can understand that it's not as cut and dry as it seems, and that it's a bit more complex than it ought to be, which is why I got myself mixed up.

I appreciate it. Good on you!

It is more complex than it should be. The whole Necron codex has some issues, some of which are badly complicated by there having been an important reprint with some wording changes before GW got their act together with their FAQs; nowadays GW reproduces those kind of wording changes in the "Errata" part of the FAQ.

liam0404 wrote:Ok, so after some consultation (and a bit of open-mindedness on my part!), I will agree with what's been posted here about the Lord not getting WBB.

Having said that, I would hope that most of you can understand that it's not as cut and dry as it seems, and that it's a bit more complex than it ought to be, which is why I got myself mixed up.

That's why my sig has the quote about the mind being like a parachute!
As far as WBB, I quite agree that it is a confusing rule that needs many sub-issues addressed.

This is a flow chart I wrote up some time ago. It might be of help.

NECRON WBB FLOWCHART

Necron model (except Necron Lord) is destroyed in shooting phase
A-Is it’s unit within 6” of a Res Orb on the table (Lord is equipped and “alive”)?
Yes-Lay model on its side to await WBB
No-Go to B
B-Was it destroyed by a weapon where S(weapon) >=2XT(model)?
Yes-Remove model
No-Go to C
C-Was it destroyed by a CC that allows no armor save?
Yes-Remove model
No- Lay model on its side to await WBB
D-Is the damaged model's unit falling back?
Yes-Move damaged model with unit
No-Await WBB roll
E-Has the damaged model's unit been caught in a Sweeping Advance?
Yes-Remove model
No-Await WBB roll

Beginning of Necron turn roll for WBB
D-Is there another model of the same type within 6”?
Yes-Roll for WBB
No-Go to E
E-Is there a Tomb Spyder within 12” and a model of the same type on the table?
Yes-Roll for WBB
No-Remove model
F-Did model pass WBB?
Yes-Place model in coherency with closest unit of same type
No-Go to G
G-Will the model’s unit teleport through a Monolith in movement phase?
Yes-Model may re-roll WBB as it emerges
No-Remove model

Hopefully in the next codex release (in year 2025) they will have a list of exceptions and circumstances in addition to the WBB rule. Thing like: "Falling Back," "Sweeping Advance," "Attached Necron Lord," "Infantry with D.Fields resurrecting with a squad without," and similar topics. Yes, it fills up a page, but it would alleviate problems with such an oddball rule.

As complex, and ultimately difficult to regulate as 40K is, GW could do customers a great service by making these notes with armies' Special Rules. Yes, most (but not all) things are legally ruled out or in if you take time to put a magnifying glass to the page in search for semantics and clause structure. But even in these cases, it would keep players from spending time paging through books or debating.

IMHO and frankly, the BHB does a good job of being structured to get players into the game quickly, but from a regulatory perspective the book is a nightmare to wade through. Nerds (if you'll pardon the term) are used to complex games like role playing games and some of the more difficult trading card games, so clarity at the cost of ease of the basics would be acceptable. Restructuring to increase clarity would probably not alienate newcomers.

diesel7270 wrote:Restructuring to increase clarity would probably not alienate newcomers.

TW has explained it quite well. It all comes down to WBB, which means that models which lose their last wound are not 'dead', they are "damaged". look through the Necron codex, it consistently uses the term "damaged" for downed models.
Bottom line, Necron models are still part of the unit they belonged to until they either pass a WBB (and possibly hoin a different unit) or fail a WBB and are removed. Sweeping Advance removes the UNIT. The entire unit, all of them, to include the damaged models. No special rule can save them.

Or as Bones would say, "They're dead, Jim"

"They;re all dead Dave". "Dave, all dead they are"; "dead they all are, Dave"....

NECRON WBB FLOWCHART

Necron model (except Necron Lord) is destroyed in shooting phase
A-Is it’s unit within 6” of a Res Orb on the table (Lord is equipped and “alive”)?
Yes-Lay model on its side to await WBB
No-Go to B
B-Was it destroyed by a weapon where S(weapon) >=2XT(model)?
Yes-Remove model
No-Go to C
C-Was it destroyed by a CC that allows no armor save?
Yes-Remove model
No- Lay model on its side to await WBB
D-Is the damaged model's unit falling back?
Yes-Move damaged model with unit
No-Await WBB roll
E-Has the damaged model's unit been caught in a Sweeping Advance?
Yes-Remove model
No-Await WBB roll

Beginning of Necron turn roll for WBB
D-Is there another model of the same type within 6”?
Yes-Roll for WBB
No-Go to E
E-Is there a Tomb Spyder within 12” and a model of the same type on the table?
Yes-Roll for WBB
No-Remove model
F-Did model pass WBB?
Yes-Place model in coherency with closest unit of same type
No-Go to G
G-Will the model’s unit teleport through a Monolith in movement phase?
Yes-Model may re-roll WBB as it emerges
No-Remove model

Now that makes it a hell of alot easier to understand so i'll be nicking this, thanx for clearing it up time wizard, if they keep WBB in the new codex (highly unlikely with all the misunderstandings) they should make a flow like this aswell.

Cheers Userarm!
Glad to help.