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The Warp Spiders Shep mentions are on p.227.

Yeah, thanks man. That is one absolutely bitchin' army. I think that those conversions would require taking a jeweller's saw to the one-piece metal warpspider (the guns don't come seperate do they?) which I a bit more effort than I'd normally go to though.

It looks to me like a dark reaper body, guardian head with some conversion, and the jump pack + spinner muzzles from the Warp Spider Exarch blister (which is multi-part).

Seriously guys, have you ever tried to kill a squadron of 3 vypers in a game? How about 2 squadrons of 3? Especially when the Eldar player is playing KP denial with reserves & so forth.

That's the idea I'm pushing based on my experience--that there are viable mech Eldar builds that don't have fire prisms or bright lances.

Open-topped AV10 in a squadron is really fragile. It's a 5+ to be Destroyed on a glance, and 3+ to be Destroyed on a penetrating hit.

That's just it Flavius (may I call you Flavius, old boy?) I run a squadron of 2 vypers, and in almost every game they both die to the initial round of shooting. Yesterday it was 3 deffkoptas that took them down. Once it was a dreadnought - one with the multimelta and one with the stormbolter! Occasionally they last till the 2nd round shot at them. Only once in my recollection has a vyper lived with its guns blown off till turn 5, when I moved it flat out to contest an objective. (the game went on and it died, just my luck, but it was potentially useful that time)

It's just that vypers don't actually give you that many shots for the points you pour in. And their 'advantage' that you pay so much for, mobility, is possessed by every other tank in the codex!

Yeah, I'm aware of how vypers look on paper, and I used to have exactly the same opinion about AV10 open-topped vehicles in squadrons and the 3+ to kill them and all that.

And I've run two vypers in a squadron and have seen how they come apart if something actually shoots at them.

But I've also seen now and played against squadrons of three vypers, and my experience is that it's actually pretty hard to take out the whole squadron reliably. In my experience, the squadron of 3 (or two squadrons of 3) is qualitatively different from the squadron of 2, and is more durable in practice than the stats would lead you to believe.

Okay, so describe the quality that a unit of 3 has over a unit of 2. Yeah, the firepower that'll kill a 2-vyper unit might not kill 3 reliably, that's that's qualitative difference.

Now, I subscribe to the philosophy that if you can't describe its qualities on paper, you're not describing it accurately. So what is this qualitative difference you averre to perceive?

I have 2 flavors of vypers. I have 3 with scatter/shuriken cannon. That is potentially 21 S6 shots going downrange. If they happen to have guide or be aiming at a doomed unit... I also built 2 more with brightlances. They can be a single unit, or just individuals, but they can harass vehicles for a relaively low cost. AND, if your opponent fires at them it means a tank or serpent that might not be getting pegged. It also flows well with the use of other skimmers. I have all 3 tanks and 5 serpents, so vypers fit the theme and can keep up.

So how many Wave Serpents could you get instead of a unit of three Vypers? Because the only limit seems to be points.

Bolters won't hurt the Wave Serpents. Heavy Bolters won't. Between 6" and 12" you'll only get 1/4 chance of killing it with a Melta Gun that hits.

I do, however, agree with the notion that killing somemone first is a good idea. The problem seems to be doing unto others before they do un to you.

Nurglitch wrote:Okay, so describe the quality that a unit of 3 has over a unit of 2. Yeah, the firepower that'll kill a 2-vyper unit might not kill 3 reliably, that's that's qualitative difference.

Now, I subscribe to the philosophy that if you can't describe its qualities on paper, you're not describing it accurately. So what is this qualitative difference you averre to perceive?

It's economy of scale. An emergent phenomenon. I'm claiming that three vypers are more than one-third better than two vypers.

My claim is based on direct experience more than anything, but if I had to account for it, I'd have to guess that it has to do with the statistical break points. A rifleman dread, AC/LC predator, AC on a fast vehicle all have a high frequency on 2 damaging hits, leaving the third vyper to deny a killpoint or harrass/contest important things. 21 shots puts you in that 10-11 hit range where you're looking at 3 or 4 damaging hits on a rhino, as opposed to the 1 or 2 that you most frequently get from 2 vypers shooting. Just a couple of examples of how the third vyper puts the unit as a whole into a statistical sweet spot.


As for what else you could buy for 210 points, this discussion I think was predicated on the assumption that you've already maxed out your heavy slots and bought as many wave serpents as you want (or have models for). Vypers are a way for a mech army to pack extra long-range firepower into the fast attack slots.

I've just got to add that there are a lot of weapons that can hurt a vyper, but if you went with the missile launcher configuration, and were disciplined about where you are going to be moving, then the same guns that can actually reach you (the stuff with 48" range) happen to be the same guns your opponent will likely want to use against your wave serpents, falcons and fire prisms. They'll be safe by being less of a priority.

If you're playing hide the pickle with ML vypers you might as well just use war walkers, have more missile launchers, the option to outflank, and be better off for the points.

"predicated on the assumption that you've already maxed out your heavy slots..."

I also prefer war walkers. But if you've maxed out on them, or taken falcons or prisms instead, vypers let you pack massed heavy weapons into the fast slots.

Also, to emphasize what Shep added, it's a fundamental principle of mech Eldar armies. The number of weapons that can range beyond 24" is small compared to the number of weapons that fire within that effective range.l. If you force your opponent to make that choice, vypers have a survivability that isn't reflected in their stats on paper.

Yeah... this just keeps coming up...

war walkers are not comparable in any way to vypers.

unit type, force organization slot, speed on table, model size, ability to be locked in combat...

About the only thing the two compete for is points.

I JUST got home from playing a game (spearhead seize ground) where vypers won me that game. I held my forces in reserve, and pecked at my opponent from extreme long range. on the final two turns of the game I made a dramatic move to table center, followed by another 24" move to contest his home objective. I did this with vypers obviously. The game did not end on 5 and my first contesting vyper was killed. Luckily I had two more, and so I sent the next one over and the game did end.

My army strategy revolves around deep range attacks, hiding behind terrain, and waiting until the last possible moment to reveal my objective scoring/contesting strategy. You need to be spamming fast skimmer hulls to do this.

I run fire prisms in heavy, I run a mixture of bikes and dire avengers in bright lance serpents in troops, fire dragons in bright lance serpents in elites and a farseer. Approaching within 12" with warp spiders, or flanking on with a 6" move with war walkers, really just unravels all of the effort I expend to outrange or break LOS to the MUCH shootier armies in the metagame right now.

A war walker/warp spider strategy would work great with a more straightforward list design.... But their range is too short, their speed is too slow (or too flukey) for use with my army strategy.

To go all the way back to the OP...

"Are Eldar Vypers worth it?" Well, it really depends on what you are trying to do with your overall strategy. If you aren't going to have an overall strategy and want to just take a collection of straightforward units, then no... take warp spiders.

Shep wrote:Yeah... this just keeps coming up...

war walkers are not comparable in any way to vypers.

I'm confused, because the comparison looks pretty plain to me. One gets you 8Xstr6 shots for 60 points, the other one gets you 7Xstr6 shots for 70 points--per vehicle in a squadron of up to 3.

(Maybe because it's a list-building comparison, rather than a gameplay comparison?)

Yes, they're different in all the ways you mention. But if you're trying to pack a bunch of long-range str6 shots into an Eldar list, it comes down to a choice between one or the other (or some combination of both). And the one you choose determines a lot about what else you can do with your list.

The only other units that can get that many str6 shots are falcons and wave serpents, both of which are much more expensive per shot. (I don't count warp spiders as long-range since their maximum effective range is only 24")

Ok.

There are two things that war walkers don't do, that vypers do. And these two things are why I say they are "non-comparable"

One of these things is a "list building comparison" and the other is a "gameplay comparison"

War walkers can not be in a list that has 2x fire prisms and 1x nightspinner. Which is my preferred choice for heavy support.

Also war walkers can not move 24" nor can they leap over impassable terrain. Which is my preferred method of contesting objectives. Particularly on the bottom of the turn.

Yeah, I don't think we disagree about the OP, Shep. Vypers are worth taking, whether it's to contest objectives 24" away through terrain, or if it's to pack a bunch of str6 shots in.

I don't prefer fire prisms or night spinners, though, and in lists without vypers I use wave serpents or falcons to move 24" leaping over terrain to contest objectives.

Thanks everyone for the replies, it's been very useful to read.

It seems people say the Vypers are worth taking only if all of the HS are full, which in my case they are.

Any more advice on using Vypers would be very useful, thanks.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I don't prefer fire prisms or night spinners, though, and in lists without vypers I use wave serpents or falcons to move 24" leaping over terrain to contest objectives.

I'm going to send you a PM, you've definitely intrigued me here. because I have a hard time finding the points to cram in enough fast movers if I don't cheat and take 60 point vypers. In particular I'm interested in what is on and in your falcons...

Porcupine el Josh wrote:It seems people say the Vypers are worth taking only if all of the HS are full, which in my case they are.

Any more advice on using Vypers would be very useful, thanks.

The real crux of vypers, is that even though they are cheap, their fragility and their non-twin linked, low BS takes them out of the race in terms of raw killiness. The mentality of the vyper pilot, is to primarily survive in order to participate in the late game. When they arrive on the table, and there is an option of a shot to take, which leaves them exposed, or a place to move flat out where they can be mostly out of LOS, you've just got to choose self-preservation. Other units can attempt 'self preservation by means of killing the enemy' but not the coin-toss shot from the vyper. As the turns go by, and the game gets later and later, the value of vypers starts to ramp up. Other units in your army have been working to eliminate the long range anti-vehicle firepower that an enemy has, and the enemy now has to focus much more on moving to claim objectives and to contest objectives that you've placed. That reduced firepower, and increase in enemy movement severely restricts their ability to take out your vypers. These are the turns where you take potshots, and where you set up your objective blocking moves with them. That is why they are so cheap, because you can't rely on them to make some sort of IG-esque gunline. They've got to stall, hide, and move quick for the early game, in order to be a problem for your opponent later.

If you've got points to spend, and you want to focus on self-preservation through annihilation, then you've got to take a look at warp spiders. And if you've got open heavy support slots, war walkers. Eldar's "thing" is overwhelming application of strength 6 shooting from an obtuse angle. Thats side armor for vehicles, and an overwhelming amount of armor saves for infantry left out on a flank. War walkers outflank, and warp spiders deep strike and then 'jump back'.

But as Flavius has reiterated, the ability to jump over a screening unit and contest enemy objectives needs to be present in an army, and other vehicles in the eldar army can do that... I just find I need more of those blocking moves than I can afford with the prohibitive cost of wave serpents, and so I reach for vypers....

Vypers suck. They used to be good, but the rules edition shift makes them a bad combination. You can't use their speed to keep them safe any more unless you don't use their firepower. The whole point was to be hard hitting and hard to hit, now it's either one or the other. Sit around and take shots with two overpriced weapons for a turn and watch your open-topped butt get spanked by a bolter, or just fly around useless all game to stay safe, but accomplish nothing else.