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omerakk wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:I honestly don't understand why people bring crusaders up... It's not that I want storm shields because I like their looks... I'd just like to have the option for just ONE Grey Knight Assault terminator squad.

Because the whole thread has been talking about stormshields? That might be why it got brought up.

And it was already pointed out that terminators could get a 2+ invulnerable save if they were allowed to have shields.

The nemesis weapon units weren't given stormshields for game balance issues, and the henchmen were given them to satisfy people who like the looks. Seems pretty straight forward

Except it really isn't... I get the balance problems, but it's not that hard to restrict the choices for the "GKT assault squad" to halberd and daemonhammer, with perhaps just 1 warding staff. I'm even ok with losing the stormbolter... But it just irks me that the best of the best, which has to face the worst of the worst and is said to have access to just about any equipment the imperium has available can't get some stormshields even though they can get terminator armour for every freaking grey knight... Plus it irks me that I don't have really an option to just go face smashing in melee... Terminators and paladins are very vulnerable to long range fire (with the paladin's saving grace being almost immunity to small arms fire, which comes at a hefty cost though), and don't shine particularly in melee either. Most of the time I'm better off not taking any terminators at all, which kinda contradicts the fluff and the large availability of terminator armour the GKs have...

Yeah, the fluff around them not having storm shields is terrible. And the fluff about them being the best of the best is not validated in the unit and its stats.

They all have that line of fours just like every other marine, no variation. But somehow, they're the best.

gpfunk wrote:Yeah, the fluff around them not having storm shields is terrible. And the fluff about them being the best of the best is not validated in the unit and its stats.

They all have that line of fours just like every other marine, no variation. But somehow, they're the best.

Yeah exactly... Lowered leadership and ws from the previous version... Terminator honours used to mean 2 attacks, and supposedly every single GK has them, but still you get 1 basic attack on the troops (and we lost true grit as well). I'm not saying that they're worse, they're very much not. But their in-game representation has moved away from their fluff: the storm shields are just the most glaring example of that.

I don't get this thread. You're complaining about the lack of storm shields in the Grey Knight army and when, quite rightly, people bring up game balance you *agree* with them about it being OP, but then still complain that Grey Knights can't have shields....

The simple answer to your question is 'because the Codex says so'. A more developed answer would be 'because they'd be as close to invulnerable as the game allows, with a 3++ vs shooting and a 2++ in assault. When you combine those kind of stats with a Stormraven that can potentially get said unit a Turn 1 charge you'd have one squad rolling up an entire enemy army, twice as bad if they happen to be Paladins.'

In essence, if you are so desperate for shields on your Grey Knights by all means model them as such, they're your models at the end of the day, but be sure to clarify prior to every game that they are there purely for aesthetic purposes.

L. Wrex

Exactly.

How many space marine armies are there in this game? And how many of them do nothing but spam stormshield units? This one is trying to be different; live with it or pick a new army.

As far as fluff not matching the gameplay... that hasn't really happened since the very early days of 4th edition. This shouldn't have been a shock

1) Terminators or paladins don't get any kind of dedicated transport, especially not the SR. So, unless I remember the rules incorrectly, there's no way you can get a turn 1 assault.

2) Like I said there *are* ways to prevent them being overpowered. Most people here are talking like you are forced to give them "overpoweredness". Fact is, when you're on the drawing table you can do what you want (well, kinda). What I'm "complaining" about isn't "why can't I take 'em", it's "why the hell the codex was written this way". It's not a question that can be answered by anybody that hasn't actually written the codex, so we're left with a discussion, which is what is happening here.

3) I'm not desperate for anything, I'm just stating some points that other people seem to agree with. GKs not getting storm shields makes NO sense from the fluff point of view and little sense from the balance point of view (again, you can restrict what models get as wargear and, as a fact, it's been done in the same exact codex: ghost knights.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

omerakk wrote:Exactly.

How many space marine armies are there in this game? And how many of them do nothing but spam stormshield units? This one is trying to be different; live with it or pick a new army.

As far as fluff not matching the gameplay... that hasn't really happened since the very early days of 4th edition. This shouldn't have been a shock

Sorry, it's not a "space marine army". That's the problem... Most of (dare I say?) "us" were hoping for grey knights, not another "space marine army". In some ways we've got that, in some others we didn't. It's just a shame, imho, that the end result is a (probably) good army, with some fun things but that doesn't reflect what we were expecting from the established fluff (hell, even the fluff the new codex itself establishes...)

Yes, you can restrict the wargear a unit has to balance it. And that is what they did: they took out stormshields. Does it make 100% sense in all forms of the word? No.

Would allowing a grey knight to carry a shield but not a sword make more sense? No.

Would letting them carry both, but for some reason, they didn't get a boost to their invulnerable save make sense? No.

Weather you agree with what they did to balance out the gameplay or not, they did it, end of story. Nothing is going to change, so I don't really understand the point in complaining about it. So you don't like the way the fluff is being written and put in the game anymore. Fine; 95% of the people that play have felt the same way for the past 4 years, but it continues to increase GW sales, so it will keep happening.

omerakk wrote:
Would allowing a grey knight to carry a shield but not a sword make more sense? No.

Here I disagree. At least it would have made sense given what happens now and has happened for a lot of time. Termi assault squads get the choice of either ss+th or LC. There are other power weapons out there (power fists just to say one), and some people would even take them over THs if they granted a slight point break (there was a thread about this not long ago). GKTs used to have the ss/th combo. Hell, Draigo even still keeps his storm shield... Forcing to choose between, say, daemonhammer/ss or halberd/ss wouldn't have been crazy or anything.

Weather you agree with what they did to balance out the gameplay or not, they did it, end of story. Nothing is going to change, so I don't really understand the point in complaining about it. So you don't like the way the fluff is being written and put in the game anymore. Fine; 95% of the people that play have felt the same way for the past 4 years, but it continues to increase GW sales, so it will keep happening.

Well we're in an internet forum talking about plastic miniatures for a wargame. If I want to "complain", I'll do that. It's not like I want something to change... I'm just expressing my opinion. You're free to disagree, but if you just want me to shut up then it's the wrong place to ask for that... Just avoid reading the thread if it irks you so much... It's not even one of those "once every week" threads.

Well we're in an internet forum talking about plastic miniatures for a wargame. If I want to "complain", I'll do that. It's not like I want something to change... I'm just expressing my opinion. You're free to disagree, but if you just want me to shut up then it's the wrong place to ask for that... Just avoid reading the thread if it irks you so much... It's not even one of those "once every week" threads.

No, it's one of those "Once a codex, 70 times a month" threads. You must have been on vacation during March when there were several dozen "this fluff is bad", "gks make no sense" or "matt ward sucks at writing" threads going on.

You don't like the way the codex turned out. Duly noted. Anything else?

since the Stormraven(or their Landraiders) isn't a DT the GKs can start inside.


DT simply means ONLY the unit that bought it can start inside. Transports that arn't dedicated have no restrictions aside from their transport capacity.

Grey Templar wrote:since the Stormraven(or their Landraiders) isn't a DT the GKs can start inside.


DT simply means ONLY the unit that bought it can start inside. Transports that arn't dedicated have no restrictions aside from their transport capacity.

Are you sure? I've seen the other interpretation stated as well

Screening line of crusaders, followed by a bunch of shrouding GKs anyone? GKs don't get access to storm shields...for themselves. But the army gets them more cheaply than anything else in the game, if thats all you want.

SOFDC wrote:Screening line of crusaders, followed by a bunch of shrouding GKs anyone? GKs don't get access to storm shields...for themselves. But the army gets them more cheaply than anything else in the game, if thats all you want.

This could work, granting a 3+ cover save to the GKs, but you need Coteaz AND a librarian if you want to do any kind of serious screening... It'd be interesting to see though.

Why would you need coteaz exactly? One 12 man squad stretched out to coherency provides you a 3+ -foot- long strip of "You must shoot between this squads models to reach other squads models" cover for your infantry. Page 22 of the BRB is a <Censored>.

SOFDC wrote:Why would you need coteaz exactly? One 12 man squad stretched out to coherency provides you a 3+ -foot- long strip of "You must shoot between this squads models to reach other squads models" cover for your infantry. Page 22 of the BRB is a <Censored>.

For his point cost Coteaz is a solid buy anyway.
He can also camp behind the wall with a shooting squad and his ability can be pretty nasty to DP units.

SOFDC wrote:Why would you need coteaz exactly? One 12 man squad stretched out to coherency provides you a 3+ -foot- long strip of "You must shoot between this squads models to reach other squads models" cover for your infantry. Page 22 of the BRB is a <Censored>.

Well, terminators are larger and so you risk losing cover from the sides... But I guess for the initial approach it should be enough.

[Edit: also I was thinking about getting cover for more than one squad, which would need more than one squad of crusaders]