Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Same trigger means same activation; When Thrawn fails his Armor save he immediately takes a Wounds test, if he fails he is removed from play, if he passes he is removed as a casualty, a token is placed where he used to be, and he might resurrect next turn.

Where are you getting this timing on the Hexrifle?

The rule is When they suffer the unsaved wound, they take the test. That does not mean that you remove the model as a casualty(nor even apply the wound) before taking the test, it means you immediately take the test.

It is exactly 100% the same as FNP.

You say FNP is special, well guess what, so is Hexrifle.

the point is, Thawn isn't alive at that point to take the test.



the FnP countermands the wound and, for a single wound model, its death.


the Hex Rifle shoots itself in the foot by killing Thawn before he takes the test.

Show me where you are getting this assumption.

The assumption that the hexrifle ability does not activate until after the full attack process(that is, application of the wound) has been completed.

The rule plainly states when the model suffers the unsaved wound it must take a test; that means right when the model fails or is denied their save, they take the test. Not after the wound has been applied.

I have been asking you for a quote, I will even take a book, page number, and section(in the event you do not feel like typing the whole quote); you have yet to provide one, while I have provided an example of my stance.

When a model loses its last wound, it is removed as a casuality.

the Hex Rifle causes a wound, Thawn fails his save, loses his only wound and is removed as a casuality.

the Hex Rifle clearly states that it happens after unsaved wounds have been caused. meaning that single wound models are already dead.

Dead models are not required to take tests of any kind as they no longer exist.

After the unsaved wound has been caused, but not after casualty removal.

That is the point I am making; FNP happens after an unsaved wound has been caused, but again before the casualty is removed. FNP negates the wound all together, Hexrifle Makes the wound worse(especially in the case of Necrons, Thrawn, and Yarrick).

You have nothing to back up that hexrifle does not occur before casualty removal, I have the wording for FNP to back up that it does.

A model that fails their armor save has suffered an unsaved wound; any abilities that trigger on this condition("suffered an unsaved wound) would then have their effects resolved, you then go on to the remove casualties step.

FnP specifically stops the otherwise caused wound.

the Hex Rifle doesn't stop the wound process to take the test.

FnP, if passed, allows you to ignore the wound which was taken(which means the wound was caused and suffered)

with that, FnP actually supports Thawn being gone at the time the Hex Rifle's test is required.


Thawn is therefore dead at the time the Hex Rifle's test is required and doesn't take the test.



so models with FnP actually die, but then come back in the exact same spot and condition as before the saved wound was caused.

Where does FNP specifically state that it halts the process?

It has the same trigger-and-effect wording as a Hexrifle.

Since it does not specifically state that it halts the process, and since you are asserting that in either case Casualty removal goes on ahead before you resolve these special rules, you cannot FNP to remove a suffered unsaved wound whne said FNP model wound be removed as a casualty(since it is no longer on the table per the casualty removal rules).

Again you are not able to quote, nor provide reference to to back up your position, all you are doing is claiming that hexrifles do not activate their ability upon their trigger while somehow, without the requisite extra rules, FNP does.

You cannot have it both ways; Either FNP cannot be used on the final wound, or hexrifles interrupt the Casualty removal process as well.

so?


the same trigger doesn't mean Thawn isn't dead so he can take the test.



the effect of FnP is that it stops the wound. thats why it interrupts the action.


the Hex Rifle doesn't stop the wound from happening.





at best this is what happens.


Hex Rifle causes an Unsaved wound, then Thawn dies at the same time as the Hex Rifle's requirement to take a test kicks in. Thawn is still dead and doesn't take the test.

If models are dead and therefore cannot take the hexrifle test, then they are also dead and therefore cannot take the FNP test to cancel the wound.

That is the point I am trying to make.

Casualty removal says to immediately remove the model, if it is removed from the table it is not coming back(as we have absolutely no rules for replacing any but Thrawn; Necrons and Yarrick both have specific rules that they are not removed until after they have tested to return and failed). You can go ahead and make that FNP test, but the model cannot return to the table.

FNP, and Hexrifles, And any other rules dependent on "Models suffering an unsaved wound" interrupt the removal rules; and must be resolved prior to removing the models(in any manner).

If Thrawn suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle(only way for this to really be possible is that he has already died and returned at least once before, is the last member of his squad left, or player ineffectiveness); he must test or be removed from play, he will then not be removed as a casualty and cannot ever come back.

Perhaps you have me, but I still refuse to belive that the Hex Rifle can stop Thawn.


its against the spirit of his rules.


a Vortex Grenade can suck him into the warp. but he isn't dead and he has Draigo to come save him.

Jaws basically buries him alive.


I am sure it doesn't do what you claim, but I am tired of arguing.

Agreed on discontinuing the argument(I am missing my cartoons).

But one last thing, that you do not have to answer(question is rhetorical):

How is getting turned into a glass statue, and therefore not being able to return from the mostly dead, against the spirit of his rules?

Grey Templar wrote:its against the spirit of his rules.

a Vortex Grenade can suck him into the warp. but he isn't dead and he has Draigo to come save him.

Jaws basically buries him alive.

And a Hexrifle turns him into a glass statue.

It's neither against the spirit of the rules, nor the written rules.

Somehow, I think a GK would be resistant to something that turns you into a glass statue. its gotta be sorcery, and GKs are extremely resistant to that.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Perma-dead; He is not "killed out-right", nor "Suffers ID", nor "removed as a casualty"; he is "removed from play" which means nothing can bring him back.

on the plus side, unless you allocated the hexrifle wound specifically to him, or had already been killed once and returned then the hexrifle cannot specifically target him, just put it on a member of his unit.

Yup removed from play does always mean dead, it means takes not further part in the game.

Actually, though this doesn't directly involve Thawn, it does. In the case of Necron WBB, the rule specifically states that any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, they are placed on their side... The key wording is reduced to 0 wounds. Therefore hexrifle's wouldn't affect any necron that only has 1 wound. Granted it might affect a lord, or a c'tan for that matter *shudder*. I hate poisoned weapons.

WBB is pretty much the same as Thawn's rule.

Sabet wrote:Actually, though this doesn't directly involve Thawn, it does. In the case of Necron WBB, the rule specifically states that any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, they are placed on their side... The key wording is reduced to 0 wounds. Therefore hexrifle's wouldn't affect any necron that only has 1 wound. Granted it might affect a lord, or a c'tan for that matter *shudder*. I hate poisoned weapons.

WBB is pretty much the same as Thawn's rule.

The key word is removed from play, that would be removed from the game; nothing can bring back something that has been banished from your game session.

The closest thing to a special rule that would allow a model to return to play after failing the Hexrifle test is an IG Conscript squad with "Send in the next wave"; but that is just because the returned conscript squads are specifically a New identical unit.

Although in the case of the conscripts squad, it's a new unit identical to the one removed, with the exception of having killed any ICs that may have been attached to the squad at deployment.

Hexrifle kills the fat-kid necron, just like hexrifle would deal with Necrons, who are, incidentally enough, removed as casualties, but laid on their side to mark where they fell for WBB purposes. The codex, IIRC, says that if they're in the way, they can be removed and set aside.

Kel's got it right, and GT seems want so bad to keep the not-really-worth-the-points chubby chick, but he can't, 'cause the Hexrifle is the one taking Thawn home tonight. Sorry, GT, can't win 'em all.