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mwnciboo wrote:An IH Predator...Hmmm how about a Conversion Beamer Turret, with HB's on the sponson? (Yes i know i need to shut up about Conversion Beamer..It is awesome though).

I would call it something to do with Forge's. e.g. ANVIL Class Predator, HAMMER Class Pred, Or a PYRITE Class Predator.

Maybe to show the large numbers of Servitors, and lack of scouts we should look at large Servitor units?

Vulcan Predator

Vulcan being the Roman name for the Greek god Hephaestus, fitting as he was a god of technology and crafting in general. Main armament would be a Vulcan Heavy Bolter (smaller variation of a Vulcan Megabolter, single rotary array instead of double). Can carry a few other main weapons, mainly upgraded versions of standard weaponry or something.

mwnciboo wrote:Oh wow, like the Vulcan Heavy Bolter, is that like a single rotary Vulcan Bolter, because the MegaBolter is always a pair of rotary Heavy Bolters?

I love where this is going, if you need an images copy them off my Pre-Heresy Iron Hand Gallery, I have been collecting IH iconography and pictures.

Yup, except not as powerful as a standard Vulcan Megabolter wouldn't fit on a Rhino. Still ironing out the details.

mwnciboo wrote:Okay, Iron Hands don't have a Chapter Master therefore they cannot take an Honour Guard. I think every Commander of a Clan should have a slightly modified Command Squad part Honour Guard part Command Squad. Call it the "Iron Guard" it would be an Apothecary and 3 Honour Guards and a Champion (including a Standard) Weighing in at 250 points then add on Wargear.

With the "Iron Guard" unit you could go to town with Techmarine conversions and Power Weapons etc. What do you think of this idea?

Honour Guards will still be able to be taken, however they will function like they do in Codex Blood Angels where you can take them for any HQ Independent Character (so an Iron Thane or Iron Father could be accompanied by Servitors, Honour Guard, or a Command Squad).


On the topic of Dreadnoughts, you will be able to take up to two Venerable Dreadnoughts as a single Headquarters choice. Ironclad Dreadnoughts will still count as Elites choices while normal Dreadnoughts will be Heavy Support. This means you can potentially field up to 10 Dreadnoughts (4 Venerable, 3 Ironclad, 3 Normal).

Alright, I think I've tortured people long enough. Here's the current overview of the units in Codex: Iron Hands.


HEADQUARTERS
- Kardan Stronos (Acting Chapter Master of the Iron Hands, though all this position confers is basically having Kardan act as an ambassador of the chapter, otherwise the Chapter's Iron Thanes share leadership equally)
- Vaylund Cal (Chapter Master of the Sons of Medusa)
- Iron Thane
- Honour Guard Squad
- Opus Machina Iron Thane (basically an Iron Thane that's gone overboard on replacing organics, essentially making him much more machine than man, fits on a 40mm base)
- Iron Father
- Command Squad
- Venerable Dreadnought (can take two as a single Headquarters choice)
- Magos (Adeptus Mechanicus representative, has some cool special rules and wargear options)
- Opus Machina Magos (same as Opus Machina Iron Thane, but with different stats and special rules)

ELITES
- Sternguard Veteran Squad (no real change, except can be upgraded to have Bionics and, if the squad takes Bionics, it can take a single Implant)
- Eradicator Veteran Squad (basically a Devastator Veteran Squad, acts as an embodiment of the Iron Hands way of thinking. Has Tank Hunters and counts all weapons as Twin-Linked against non-vehicle enemy units. Has 4+ Bionics save right off the bat and can take a single Implant)
- Ironclad Dreadnought
- Techmarines (can take up to three as a single Elites choice. Blessings of the Omnissiah much better and flows more with the pace of the game)
- Skitarii Storm Troopers (basically Imperial Guard Storm Troopers, but with a 5+ Bionics save and access to better weapons. Taken as Troops instead of Elites if you have a Magos in your army)
- Electro-priests (another Adeptus Mechanicus unit, basically Techpriests who have dedicated themselves to fighting and to battle)
- Servitors

TROOPS
- Tactical Squad

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
- Rhino
- Stronos Razorback (has Rhino's self repair special rule, also has different weapon loadouts and options)

FAST ATTACK
- Assault Squad (can be upgraded to have Personal Teleporters)
- Vanguard Veteran Squad (can be upgraded to have Personal Teleporters)
- Space Marine Bike Squad (can be upgraded to have Space Marine Jet Bikes)
- Attack Bike Squad
- Land Speeder Squad

HEAVY SUPPORT
- Devastator Squad
- Dreadnought
- Mobile Weapon Platforms (same as Thunderfire Cannons, but you can take up to three of them as a single Heavy Support choice and they have multiple weapon options)
- Praetorian Servitors (bad-ass battle servitors, Relentless, equipped with a variety of heavy weapons)
- Imperial Knight (basically an enclosed version of a Dreadknight)
- Predator
- Vindicator
- Whirlwind
- Land Raider
- Land Raider Crusader
- Land Raider Redeemer
- Land Raider Ares (bad-ass 300 point Land Raider, no transport capacity but is equipped with two twin-linked heavy flamers in the sponsons, a twin-linked assault cannon, and a forward-facing Vindicator Cannon)

Deadshot wrote:You need another troops option. One doesn't cut it.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Yeah... Specifically, more AdMech stuff. With the current list, if it were released by GW, they'd probably hype up the "AdMech army" side of it, and then be moaned at for not providing enough units for that to be a viable choice.

You can take Skitarii Storm Troopers as Troops if you take a Magos. Basically you can't have a true AdMech army without a Magos, in a nutshell. Which, if you think about it, makes sense. Wouldn't be much of an AdMech army without one.

I am toying with ideas for more AdMech units, particularly some Fast Attack choices as that area of the army on both sides is pretty bland right now. Any suggestions would be very welcome.

Maybe adding a Battle Servitors squad as Troops, but having a rule where you can't have more Battle Servitor squads than you have Tactical Squads.

Deadshot wrote:That is the one on the GW site? The one made by the Dark Angels?

Yes, it was originally created by the Dark Angels and had the Dark Angels had their way, it would have stayed with the Dark Angels. However, the chapter's Techmarines thought the design was so impressive that they sent the designs off to Mars to be analyzed and potentially mass-produced, a move that was never approved by and has never sat well with the rest of the Dark Angels.

Deadshot wrote:Ooo, I have an idea! You know how many chapters distrust the AdMech associated Chapters?, Well, make it a rule that any ally SM, other than GK, cannot embark on a IH vehicle under any circumstances. Buy your own or hoof it!

Hmm, I'll think about this one. The Blood Angels are right up there with other Chapters and other authorities (Inquisition) that think they're absolutely bonkers and borderline heretics yet people can still bear it and ride their transports and what not.

However, I do think a rule where Iron Hands Independent Characters cannot join non-Codex units except for Imperial Guard and Inquisitors sounds like a neat idea. Shows that other chapters and the Sisters of Battle really don't want to be lead around by Machine God-worshiping, perfection obsessed Marines who may readily turn their anger upon their allies for an act as simple as a tactical retreat.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Because too many CBs means Conversionspam. And that kind of ruins the fact of "incredibly rare pre-heresy weapons".

My thoughts exactly. We already have Iron Thanes, Magos, Weapons Platforms, and Venerable Dreads that can take them or a variation of them, lets leave it at that.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:Some very good ideas here. I would LOVE to see a codex with- *SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ the IRON HANDS BOOK*

Consider it done.

James100 wrote:Why not more the dreadnought to troops instead of heavy and have it scoring but you can have more dreads than tactical squads like death company and their dreads. Also what about a scout equivilant. maybe a huge scout squad led by a techmarine training them for battle!

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:@James100: Again, the IHs have less Dreads than most other chapters.

Salted Diamond wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:@James100: Again, the IHs have less Dreads than most other chapters.

QFT. The (slight) difference between IH and codex chapters is they hold their dreads higher for being free from the weakness of flesh and closer to unity with the Omsiah (sp). They also have their dreads in command positions where it seems most chapters they are only advisers.

Yeah, the only type of Dreadnoughts the chapter has more of is Venerables and they tend to treat them with much higher levels of respect and it's not uncommon for armies to be lead by Venerable Dreadnoughts. This is already being represented in the codex by A) Allowing Venerable Dreadnoughts to be taken as Headquarters choices and B) Allowing you to take up to two Venerable Dreadnoughts as a single Headquarters choice.

It's still possible to have a very mech-heavy army with this list, as Ironclads count as Elites while regular Dreads count as Heavy Support (thus allowing for a total of 10 Dreadnoughts to be taken via standard force org) for Iron Hands-like armies that do have more Dreads than normal, but the prior posters are right in that they don't have an excess of them.

I'm still debating about the Dreadnoughts. One part of me wants to take the simple, easy way and just leave Ironclads as Elites and regular Dreads as Heavy Support.

The other part of me wants to remove them from the force organization entirely and make it so you can take one Ironclad or normal Dread for every Iron Thane, Iron Father, and Techmarine you have.

Added in a new Troops choice: Neophyte Squad

Consists of 5 to 10 models in Power Armour with WS 3 and BS 3. Can include up to 10 Servitors as well. Squad is Fearless and always counts as Rending in close combat. Does not get the Combat Squads special rule.

Few other updates and new units as well...

- Added in an Iron Commander unit (basically a Captain). 100 Points, can take Bionics and a few Implants.
- Renamed Techmarines to Forge-Wrights.
- Added Gdolkin as a Special Character (need info on him, specifically his demeanor and what kind of equipment he has as a Dreadnought).

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Sounds good to me. So what role would an Iron Commander fill in the Iron Hands' heirachy?

Deadshot wrote:Captain?

Correct. In my mind we can glimpse the Sons of Medusa somewhat for how the Iron Hands themselves structure. Basically each Clan is ruled by their Council Representatives, which consist of both Iron Thanes and Venerable Dreads, but the charge of actually carrying out the orders of the Council Representative's will is taken out by the Iron Commander.

Salted Diamond wrote:

Marik Law wrote: - Renamed Techmarines to Forge-Wrights.

I think re-naming techmarines is going overboard. Yes make the codex unique, but there is no need to re-name every unit. They are still "codex" marines. It talks in the Space Marine codex about how Blood Angels are "codex" with slight variation. I see Iron Hands as similar.

This change was done as every time I see a Techmarine mentioned in either Iron Hands or Sons of Medusa lore, they are never directly titled as Techmarines, and the closest thing I ever find apart from Iron Thanes and Iron Fathers is Forge-Wrights. Hence why the change was made.

Also, with the rules for Blessings of the Omnissiash and Bolster Defenses changing to be better, it could perhaps avoid confusion (may change the name of the abilities as well).

UPDATE: Gonna start putting together the Codex soon, rough version will have placeholders for pictures but no pictures.

Starting the write-up of the Codex now. Has some pretty awesome units and customization in it, however I needed to ask everyone something.

Already planning on letting Iron Commanders in Terminator armour take Heavy Flamers, but what about Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers? Yay or nay to either?

mwnciboo wrote:An Iron Father (Captain/Chaplain) is a CC orientated character he is neither a Devastator Sergeant nor Captain of the Devastator Company. If he took a suit of TDA I would expect a SS + TH or PW or RB with extra options (Aux Grenade launcher) I would not expect him to be a Heavy Support Terminator with a Cyclone ML and a SB. Space HULK is neither here nor there, and if it were the case then Space Hulk (the original) never let your Captain have a heavy/assault weapon anyway! You are right about the TDA design idea for confined fights like tunnels and hulks.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour#.TyA2D6VUzRM

It's not practical for an Iron Father to have a Cyclone, neither does it take advantage of his Initiative or number of attacks, a lightning Claw or PW would be more appropriate with a SS.

I would see an argument for an Iron Hand Techmarine in Terminator Armour, with a Conversion beamer and Cyclone ML. He would be a heavy Support option. But an Ironfather is a CC leader not a Devastator. Heavy Flamer or Assault cannon I could live with but Cyclone terminator missile launcher is a bit OTT!

I've been constantly re-reading the Iron Hands lore and there actually seems to be a difference between Captains (Iron Commanders) and Chaplains (Iron Fathers), so I've included both units in the army. Iron Commanders have the widest array of options as far as HQ units go, but really don't have any special rules apart from the normal stuff, where as Iron Fathers have less options but better special rules.

As for the verdict on the Terminator weapons, I've decided to include Heavy Flamers and Assault Cannons, but leave out Cyclone Missile Launchers. It has nothing to do with a lore standpoint but more to do with an army composition standpoint. Both weapons are fairly close range, so if you add the unit to, say, a Devastator squad, it's not really going to add any additional punch to that unit, but a CML gives them another volley of missiles and makes the squad that much more able to just decimate an entire unit at range.

The unit I'm most looking forward to designing right now is the Opus Machina Thane. Basically he's an Iron Thane or Magos that's gone completely overboard on the bionics and is essentially mostly machine. 40mm base, relentless, and some other nasty special rules. Should be a very interesting conversion piece (walker legs, tank legs, whatever your imagination can think up).

Benn Bloodmane wrote:Subscribed.

Thanks!



Additionally, I found some juicy oldness I could potentially make new...ness. Legio Cybernetica units, anyone?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/8c/Robots.jpg

I've been thinking long and hard about two things when working on this Codex: Terminators and Dreadnoughts.

After much debate and thought I've decided that Terminators will definitely be their own unit instead of simply being a Sergeant Upgrade. To me, from a lore standpoint, it doesn't make sense that a chapter which prides itself of its technological prowess and which probably has a fair number of personal Forges has such a low number of suits of Terminator armour. Thus Morlock Terminator squads are in, however they won't simply be just a bog-standard Terminator squad. You can keep them as a single unit OR you can break them up to lead other units, much like Space Wolves' Wolf Guard. They will also confer bonuses to the unit they join if they use this route as well.

Much like with Terminators, it didn't make much sense to me that Dreadnoughts were something that a forge-heavy chapter would be low on. I mean the Istavaan III Dropsite Massacre happened thousands of years ago, you'd think that with their forges and technical and engineering prowess they'd easily be able to regain their lost wargear in that time span, if not make an excess of them. For this reason, Dreadnoughts will not be rare in the Iron Hands. There willbe Medusa Dreadnoughts (aka Medusa Pattern Dreadnoughts) which can be taken as Elites or Heavy Support and will have different options depending on whether they were taken as Elites or Heavy Support.

With that said, however, I pose the following question to you all: do you think Iron Hands Dreadnoughts should function differently than normal Dreadnoughts?

Let me explain this question a bit. To a normal chapter Dreadnought, it is essentially what is left of a Space Marine piloting a vehicle. However, with an Iron Hand it isn't so much a vehicle as it is an extension of that Marine's body as most Iron Hands that are interred in a Dreadnought are little more than a brain heavily hardwired into the Dreadnought itself. Do you think this would bring them more in line with a normal set of attributes, kind of like a Nemesis Dreadknight, or do you think they should still be represented as vehicles?

mwnciboo wrote:I love your reasoning above.

On the subject of Dreadnoughts, maybe the IH would view a Dreadnought in much the same way that normal marines view a Chaplain?

e.g Maybe a special rule like re-roll to hit when within 12" or something?

The reason I say this is that the IH would be in total awe and complete devotion of a Dreadnought.

What would a Medusa Dreadnought be? Conversion Beamer with DCCW Lightning Claw? Or two Power fists and Magna Grapple ?

Medusa Dreadnoughts basically have a wide variety of options available to them. If taken as an Elites they have a wide variety of close combat weapon options and extra wargear options. If taken as Heavy Support they have access to a lot more ranged weaponry. Also yes, Heavy Conversion Beamers are options.

What do you think about what I proposed about the Dreadnoughts? Do you think they should be treated as vehicles (with the normal three Armour Values) or more like a unit (with Toughness and Wounds)? I went into detail with it a bit more in my previous post.

Deadshot wrote:Well, just keeping them as dreads, albeit special ones, would be less likely to have people saying lolwut?.

Perhaps have them have the same appearance/look as Dreadnoughts but call them something else?

Unit1126PLL wrote:I think you can leave them vehicles, but remove stunned and shaken or any results that affect the crew.

The reasoning being that a Dreadnought should be immune to small arms fire (unlike an MC) and still vulnerable to a single shot from an AT weapon (unlike an MC).

But since the "crew" isn't a crew but is really a body, then remove stunned and shaken - I can't stun or shake your body.

That sounds reasonable enough.

I'll just reply here for you, Lucre, instead of Quoting since you typed out quite a bit.

1) In the Iron Hands Codex I'm making, Combat Tactics is most certainly gone and Combat Squads is staying (for now at least).

2) My Bionics in the Iron Hands Codex confer a Feel No Pain save ranging from a 6+ (most widespread) to a 4+ save (rarest), depending on the unit. Units with Bionics, however, cannot run or make sweeping advances.

3) I'm representing the vast array of Bionics with Bionic Upgrades. These are conferable only to units that have Bionics and gives them certain added abilities or attribute increases.

4) Most definitely taking the approach of Iron Hands having rarer kinds wargear and weapons with this Codex.

5) I have removed Scout Squads from the Iron Hands Codex. Instead they have been replaced with Grootslang Devastator Squads (Elite Devastator squad equipped with Sniper Rifles, able to take a few Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers, and having various Scout-like special rules) and Initiate Squads (Troops choices, cheaper than Iron Hands Tactical Squads and come with some funky special rules, but have a lower WS and BS and do not have Bionics).

6) As for new loadouts, I have Medusa patterns for Dreadnoughts, Predators, and Land Raiders, which basically allow you to create a wide variety of different types of those vehicles, representing that the Iron Hands have access to virtually all schematics from various chapters or are technologically savvy enough to reverse-engineer or mimic the loadouts.

7) More vehicle upgrades is definitely a given.

8) Iron Hands will have an improved version of Blessings of the Omnissiah which works much better than the standard SM version.

9) As I said earlier, as least with my Codex I've completely removed Scout units (4+ save units).

10) As for Stubborn, my Iron Hands Codex does away with ATSKNF and, instead, all units are simply Fearless but can make a special roll against their Leadership value so they voluntarily fall back and regroup (they're undaunted, but not stupid). I may replace this with ATSKNF, Stubborn, and the ability to pass or fail any Morale test they are called upon to take. Haven't quite decided yet.

11) I do love your idea on having the different Clans mess about with special rules or force organization, just going to be hard to accomplish. The Necrons gave me an idea that maybe they don't screw around with force org or special rules, but instead give better wargear options to certain units.

Okay, it's rumour at this point but god does it look good for Iron Hands and something tells me some of the GW devs peruse the Dakka Dakka proposed rules forums.

Rumour has it of the release of several Iron Hands plastic and finecast kits being released next year by GW (Land Raider Medusa, Iron Father Maalthun, etc). If this stuff is true I am very, very excited.

mwnciboo wrote:Bionics upgrade set, Land Raider Medusa, and Maalthun? Excellent, now I want to see the 6th Edition Codex. It's looking promising.

From what I've heard they're remaking the Space Marine Codex in which Black Templars is getting rolled into (sorry BT players). We'll get new special characters, greater unit diversity, and new units.

I'm hoping and praying for some kind of chapter customization though.

redkommando wrote:

Marik Law wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Bionics upgrade set, Land Raider Medusa, and Maalthun? Excellent, now I want to see the 6th Edition Codex. It's looking promising.

From what I've heard they're remaking the Space Marine Codex in which Black Templars is getting rolled into (sorry BT players). We'll get new special characters, greater unit diversity, and new units.

I'm hoping and praying for some kind of chapter customization though.

That saddens my heart, It will be sad to see the BT rolled into the Marine Codex, they deserve their own, as they are way too different to standard marines

It may not be true since there was whispers that a BT Codex was being worked on, but god only knows at this point. The Codex books seem to be getting bigger (Codex Chaos Space Marines seems to have all the units from the prior Codex and a bunch more, so this wouldn't surprise me one bit), so they may be able to slam Black Templars into C:SM without harming them too badly. Perhaps giving credence to chapter customization in some way, shape, or form. Would also be extremely nice to be able to take Power Weapons for Terminators instead of Power Fists and to take more assault-oriented Troops choices.

I just want my Terminators leading my other squads (some finecast mini called a First Hand Terminator is being released, one model in a blister, here's hoping).

Work has officially begun on my Codex Iron Hands book!

One thing I'm looking for from you, the faithful Iron Hands players, is help with the special characters. Most of the wikis on the net have very little information about Iron Hands named marines, this includes not providing any information on wargear, weapons, or their tactical style. Thus I'm reaching out to you guys to help me out. Know of the weapons/wargear or tactics a certain named Iron Hands marine has? Let me know!

 mwnciboo wrote:
From my Research..

Notable Members

Post Heresy
Kardan Stronos - Chapter Master of the Iron Hands (BROKEN FLUFF!!)
Bannus - warleader of the Kaargul Clan
Arven Rauth - Clan-Commander of Clan Raukaan.
Talumech - Venerable Dreadnought
Axagoras - Venerable Dreadnought
Paullian Blantar - A former Iron Father of the Kaargul Clan (Deceased)
Gdolkin - Iron Father
Naim Morvox - Brother-Sergeant of Clave Arx (3rd Squad), Clan Raukaan.
Telach - Chief Librarian of Clan Raukaan (Deceased)
Hervel Khatir - Iron Father of Clan Raukaan (Deceased)

I would recommend 5 types of special rule types, each character would have only one of these special rules on the standard HQ :- All special Characters should have a SERVO ARM.
1st Bionic Redundancy (e.g FNP him and the Unit that is with him)
2nd style Venerable Dreanoughts should be secondary HQ OPTION.
3rd Grants Relentless instead of chapter tactics.
4th Targeting Bionics (Has the "BOLTER DRILL" special rule)
5th Comms Relays/Jammer (+1 Reserves, Enemy Scatter 3D6 for any Deep strike or ordnance/ artillery strike.

Kardan Stronos is only mistaken as a Chapter Master by the rest of the Imperium, he is simply the Clan Council's Representative towards the other Imperial factions, hence the confusion.

As for the mentioned special characters, any suggestions on wargear or tactics they employ?

For Rule #1: Virtually every unit either has or can upgrade to have Bionics (Feel No Pain but can't run, sweeping advance, turbo-boost, or overwatch).

For Rule #2: I'm doing something cool instead of Venerable Dreadnoughts this time around. Look forward to Iron Council Elders.

For Rule #3: I don't know, army-wide Relentless is kind of very impressive and could potentially be overpowered.

For Rule #4: Bionic Upgrades will be available to all independent characters and some Sergeants. One of which is Bionic Eyes which gives Night Vision and Split Fire to half the squad he's in.

For Rule #5: Hmm, not sure about this one, but will definitely consider it.

Here's a teaser of the units in the new version of the Codex, since you have all been so patient. Also they have a somewhat Space Wolf-ish special rule that allows them to take two choices for every one HQ (figured it made sense since Clans tend to have much larger Command structures than Companies in other chapters).

HQ
+ Vaylund Cal
+ Iron Captain
+ Iron Father
+ (Iron Guard)
+ (Servitor Henchmen)
+ Librarian
+ Council Elder
+ Apothecary (3 as single HQ, can't take as mandatory)

ELITES
+ Morlock Terminators
+ Veteran Clave
+ Scout Clave
+ Techmarine (can take three as a single Elites choice)
+ Medusa Dreadnought (can be taken as both Elites choices and Heavy Support choices)

TROOPS
+ Tactical Clave
+ Neophyte Clave
+ Servitor Maniple (can take one for each Tactical Clave or Neophyte Clave you take)

FAST ATTACK
+ Garm Assault Clave
+ Cerastes Bike Clave
+ Attack Bike Clave
+ Preta Land Speeder Squadron
+ Stormtalon Gunship

HEAVY SUPPORT
+ Grootslang Devastator Clave
+ Weapons Platform
+ Robot Maniple
+ Iron Knight
+ Medusa Predator
+ Whirlwind
+ Vindicator
+ Medusa Land Raider