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@Ma55ter_fett
Those same arguments could be used to deny african americans jobs. They're not reasonable.

Yes Cheesecat, I am aware. However, both words are not equally interchangable. Funny how language changes.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:Yes Cheesecat, I am aware. However, both words are not equally interchangable. Funny how language changes.

Even words have genders.

DakkaDakka wrote:

lol, I didnt even realize the joke I had made. thanks for the smile and a laugh Cheesecat.

Che-Vito wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:

Sex and Gender are not really interchangable terms anymore. Lots of people use them as if they were, but sex is for genitalia, and gender is for self identity.

You know the word "gender" has more than one definition right?

http://www.google.ca/search?q=molarity&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a#hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&q=gender&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=uxDGTriCFMmpiQKtu5zlDw&sqi=2&ved=0CCQQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=10539f2b624eed6&biw=1440&bih=728

You realize out of the four definitions provided on that link...
None except #4 support your argument

#1 States that gender can be *very loosely* associated with biological sex.
#3 States that it doesn't have to do with biological sex.

More importantly, you're just wrong. The language as it exists recognizes that one as physical, one as mental.
You can quote the dictionary all day, but it is not perfect, and not going to be on top of what the defined words are of various gender theorists, zoologists, etc.

All I'm saying is when people use "gender" to describe the word "sex" it doesn't mean they're using the word wrong.

Cheesecat wrote:You know the word "gender" has more than one definition right?

http://www.google.ca/search?q=molarity&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a#hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&q=gender&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=uxDGTriCFMmpiQKtu5zlDw&sqi=2&ved=0CCQQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=10539f2b624eed6&biw=1440&bih=728

Based on the context of this discussion, it's a safe bet that we're using the third definition listed in your link.

In this context, they are using the word incorrectly.

sebster wrote:

Aerethan wrote:I'm on board for the whole job bit, but the surgeries are optional. It is not a life or death ordeal, merely one being unhappy with their appearance, and wanting to change it as they see fit.

I don't know dude, gender is a lot more than just appearance. If I was forced to live every day as something I am not, I'd find that a lot more confronting than merely being 'unhappy with my appearance'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It’s a thorny issue for sure with regards to employment, you could make some (what imo the average American would consider "reasonable") arguments either way. On one hand the rights of the individual are not being served, on the other hand it has the potential to adversely affect the business.

Exactly what are these adverse risks, that a racist couldn't equally apply to hiring a black person?

Some employers don't hire black people. It happens, I don't think it's right but it happens. But at the same time you are denoted on government forms as to your race. It is not realistically possible to hide it from a potential employer.

In my opinion any potential love interest/life partner has the right to know if you are a transgender individual.

Absolutely. Do you think there's a great mass of transgendered people out there looking to trick other people into having sex with them? Isn't it more the case that they're often reluctant to publically live transgendered lives, because of the risks that involve, or tell potential partners straight away, because telling the wrong person could get you killed?

No I don't think their are hordes of transgender who have the hots for me.

I don't think there are many women who do either, to tell you the truth.

On the same note I do know that I will never be able to knowingly have an intimate relationship with a transgender person.

And yes it is, "more the case that they're often reluctant to publically live transgendered lives, because of the risks that involves." However I was responding to an earlier claim that a transgender person should be able to hide the fact that they are transgender from a potential partner (I am assumeing this was the claim made btw, if it wasn't I apologise). I don't think they should be able to, just as I don't think a person who lnowing contracted AIDS should be able to hide the fact from partners (and yes I know they are not the same, I am useing AIDS as a metaphore for a secret that has the potential to cause real emotonal stress to the partner)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RustyKnight wrote:@Ma55ter_fett
Those same arguments could be used to deny african americans jobs. They're not reasonable.

I was not talking about race, race can not usually be hidden. But since you bring it up, yes they can. And no they are not

Public perception on race is not the same as that on transgender persons. In my opinion more people will stand up for a minority than for a transgender person... I think its awfull that it is that way, however I think that that is currently how it is.

5 Genders?


XY
XX
XXX
XXY
XYY

Phototoxin wrote:5 Genders?


XY
XX
XXX
XXY
XYY

You're forgetting Sean Connery's YYY.

DakkaDakka wrote:

sebster wrote:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:Another example

A transgender person is hired in a factory. Somehow the coworkers find out the person is transgender. The coworkers are uneasy with the idea of working with a transgender person. They take to harassing this transgender coworker. It reaches the point where management has to step in and fire several of the other coworkers for harassing the transgender worker.

You can look at this in two ways

1) Those workers who were fired for workplace harassment were jerks and deserved what they got

2) Because they hired a transgender individual management was eventually forced to fire a number of good, productive workers, the transgender person while not at fault is still seen by the management as being responsible for the problems just because they happened to be there.


One way is the moral/ethical/right way to view the situation

One is that way employer would see the situation.



Its not right, its not fair, its discrimination plain and simple... but employers will take the safe bet every time.

Again, though, how is that different to management no hiring a black dude because some of their workers are or might be racist?

Its not, except that race is not an issue here. Race relations in america have a longer history in america than transgender or gay rights.

Also there are fewer laws guarenteeing the rights of transgender persons, I am attempting to explain a few of the issues that will invariably come up on the road to greater rights for transgender persons.

And yes as you and eveyone else has pointed out they are very simular to the problems faced by the african american civil rights movement, a fact which transgender people should rejoice at since it foreshadows simular outcome for their problems.

"You have to put up with discrimination because we can't be bothered with dealing with our bigotry" is serious bs.

I never said it wasn't bs, I agree that it is bs, but it is a view held by a good many americans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Che-Vito wrote:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:
No I don't think their are hordes of transgender who have the hots for me.

I don't think there are many women who do either, to tell you the truth.

On the same note I do know that I will never be able to knowingly have an intimate relationship with a transgender person.

And yes it is, "more the case that they're often reluctant to publically live transgendered lives, because of the risks that involves." However I was responding to an earlier claim that a transgender person should be able to hide the fact that they are transgender from a potential partner (I am assumeing this was the claim made btw, if it wasn't I apologise). I don't think they should be able to, just as I don't think a person who lnowing contracted AIDS should be able to hide the fact from partners (and yes I know they are not the same, I am useing AIDS as a metaphore for a secret that has the potential to cause real emotonal stress to the partner)

That's precisely the issue.
Someone's gender identity and physical attributes, are something to be discussed between partners.
It's something that *will* inevitably come up, between the two of you.

All I am saying is that (personally) it would be much easier for everyone involved if it came up sooner rather than later.

Have you honestly seen all of your significant other's birth certificates anyways?

Yes, I have

In regards to denial of jobs;
yes, potential employers can deny you a job because of your race, gender identity, etc.

But a smart business owner is not going to fire a person for being transgender, if they know there is a legal penalty to it.

They will hesitate to fire a transgender worker for being a transgender person if they know there is a legal penalty, no doubt about it.

But they may make up some oher BS excuse to fire them.

Or they may try and avoid the issue altogether by makeing sure they hire only nontransgender

While some customers may be uncomfortable around transgender persons, I think this thread has overestimated the number of American's who lack the general "live and let live" attitude of the majority.

I like your view of America better, but I believe mine

DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:


I am addressing the bolded bit.


It’s a thorny issue for sure with regards to employment, you could make some (what imo the average American would consider "reasonable") arguments either way. On one hand the rights of the individual are not being served, on the other hand it has the potential to adversely affect the business.

In my opinion any potential love interest/life partner has the right to know if you are a transgender individual.

Please explain how this would adversely impact business? There are a handful of fields I could understand it doing so (childcare for instance.) So what is the solution? Do we provide rights and protections for taxpaying citizens, or do we continue to enable the problem with ye olde solution of "Institutionalized Indifference"?

I can see childcare as being one of the worst conflict areas. I understand that you disagree, but I view the typical American as a racist, homophobic, bigot until proven otherwise.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:Ma55ter_fett, your view of America is very realistic. No doubt about it.
I am a bit more hopeful about that change.

On Dakka, I wrote this article, and received solid responses of support from several individuals. Facebook was the same thing, on a bigger scale. Many people have reached out and been understanding, even if they don't understand all of the in's and out's of MtF transition.

I think we are moving forward as a society, and I think that institutionalized change will be a huge step towards both putting the issues into the public eye, as well as taking steps to address the inequality.

...the only thing I am at a bit of a loss for is the birth certificates. Why in the world have you seen all of your significant other's certificates? My past two relationships both lasted over two years apiece, and I never had the slightest reason to see those records.

There is a bit of self-deferential humor buried in the above posts that explains why I have viewed all my loved ones birth certificates.

RustyKnight wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:5 Genders?


XY
XX
XXX
XXY
XYY

You're forgetting Sean Connery's YYY.

Surely that's Justin Bieber.

As in ... "Why, why, why?". I think She will be quite successful when she grows up.

chromedog wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:5 Genders?


XY
XX
XXX
XXY
XYY

You're forgetting Sean Connery's YYY.

Surely that's Justin Bieber.

As in ... "Why, why, why?". I think She will be quite successful when she grows up.

I admit I don't often understand the internet.

Why would you come into a thread about transgender equality and leave a post ridiculing another human being by implying he was born actually born a she (who has been hiding her identity all this time) and is thus a fair target for everyone's scorn.


Why? Why?

I tell you that its human nature

That reference came from a Transgender friend of mine who happened to be visiting today. A JB video came onto the TV (it was on a Classic 80s metal run until then) and that was her comment. I've known her since she was a tech-geek teen boy (we're about the same age).

She seemed to think I might take it badly when she announced she was undergoing gender reassignment surgery.
My response was that I told her about my cousin.

This cousin came out to me when I was 15. He asked if I had a problem with it.
"No, but I can if it makes it easier for you."

She is who she is, regardless of whether she used to be he. She is my friend. With the same sense of humour as always.

chromedog wrote:That reference came from a Transgender friend of mine who happened to be visiting today. A JB video came onto the TV (it was on a Classic 80s metal run until then) and that was her comment. I've known her since she was a tech-geek teen boy (we're about the same age).

Its like how black people can call each other the "n" word with impunity. Even though the word itself carries centuries of filth with it.

In fact their white friends are also allowed to use that word, because they have a black friend who is totally cool with it... oh wait... that’s not how it works

I'm sure your friend is cool with you poking fun at other peoples sexuality because they do it sometimes.

Why, my brother has a friend who happens to be a gay.

That’s why I can walk up to homosexual men and call them f**s to their faces, they know I'm cool.


I'm totally serious btw Have a good night you.

Thank you for a thouroughly informative thread.
Not knowing any transgender persons nor much about the subject its been a very interesting topic.

We all know my stance here If I can add anything, it's that I've seen workplace discrimination against transgender persons firsthand. I live smack in the middle of the bible belt, so that may be a factor, but it definitely still exists. I really hope there's a day when everyone who needs to comes out and everyone who doesn't need to can appreciate what's happened.

I don't know or socialise with any transgender people but the figures are entirely expected.

We live in a world dominated by organised Religion.

For myself, I hate the idea that anyone is treated badly because they were born a certain way.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:On the same note I do know that I will never be able to knowingly have an intimate relationship with a transgender person.

Why? Because you think it makes you look gay? If you find a person attractive, you find them attractive. And some transgender people are very attractive. Sexual attraction doesn't turn off because you decide to take a peek at their birth certificate. Are you saying that you would end a relationship because you found out a nice woman used to be a man? Do you think it's easy for them??!

Not all transgender people undergo massive corrective changes either. Some have a full sex change, others are born intersex and are corrected at birth one way or the other. In this case a person might be assigned male genitalia at birth but for all other purposes have very female characteristics and later undergo surgery to correct their male organs. You wouldn't really know they were anything other than a woman.

As for what someone else was saying on the he-she thing. Well yes, if you are told they are a woman and you don't know what they look like and end up searching a crowd for them it could be rather misleading. But what are the odds of someone sending you to meet someone and not making you aware of this issue first? Once familiar you should call the person what they want to be called, that's basic courtesy. Anyone who goes with the attitude "well it looks like a man so I'm damn well going to call it a 'he'" is a douchebag plain and simple.

I wish I could understand your plight because from what you've written it looks like a tough life.

On the work front it's disgraceful, we live in a multicultural society and if workers can't accept a Transgender individual then they're almost not worthy to work. Like you said the Racism stopped through intergration and passing laws.

From a relationship point i can understand both sides, for the majority front most Transgender individuals don't need much surgery and what they do need is only minor. I could deal with that, the only tine I couldn't is if they were more male then changed to all out female. It just jars with me and I wish it didn't.

I hope change happens in the treatment of this issue.

DakkaDakka wrote:

my brother was my sister for 28 years


I know hard hard it is, I'm just glad he had a solid group of friends in San Fran while going through the whole thing



I think anyone who isn't harming anyone else is all good in my book, wish everyone shared the same belief.


RIP those that have passed, and lets get rid of stigmas.

Phototoxin wrote:5 Genders?


XY
XX
XXX
XXY
XYY

There's also:
X
XXXX
XXXXX

Here in the UK we do have employment laws that protect transgenders from being fired becouse of their chosen sex, I think most of eruope does. Unfortunetly alot of fellow "girls" still have to put up with the grate unwashed public whom by thier difintion are igronant.
Being a MtF I my self have ended up in the local A&E due to my gender choise. But we put up with it and hold on to the hope that one day we'll be excepted into the world for whom we are
(Please excuse the spelling but I can't be botherd to F7 it )