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A single Heavy Flamer really hurts that warrior squad. If they fall back, you don't get the RP points.

A poster above said that if the 13 warriors were supported by a Ghost Ark, they'd be better than 10 immortals.

A couple things. The 10 immortals have S5 shooting (either Guass or Tesla) If they're shooting Guass they've got 20 S5 AP4 shots. That's a lot. If they're shooting Tesla, they've got 10 S5 AP - Tesla shots at 24" range while moving (30" threat radius), which hits ~10 times with a high standard deviation (You'll see 7-14 hits).

13 Warriors + a Ghost Ark = 284 points.
That's nearly 17 immortals. I'll take the Immortals, everytime. They get a save against a heavy flamer and are less likely to get swept in close combat.

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People saying that the 20 warriors are hard to dislodge in combat, keep in mind that you don't get to pick your mindshackle target, it's randomly selected model from what's in base-to-base contact with the mindshackle scarab holder. If I'm assaulting, I'm putting a regular dude in base with the shackler.

Also, those lords have 2 attacks with WS4, that's one dead thing. The overlord only has 4 attacks with WS4, that's two dead things. (depending on the thing).

Mephiston *wrecks* that 20 strong unit (especially if he's not by himself).

One thing we need to remember, Ghost Arks are *slow* they need to move only 6" to get those shots off, and the threat range of the dudes inside is only 12" (unless you've got the lances in there).

5 S4 shots on two different targets is not a good thing for 115 points. As soon as that Ark moves 12" towards something, it becomes a pretty squishy target.

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I do concede that the Ghost Ark has a very good spot in an AV 13 saturation list. That list is pretty cool and the Ghost Ark works well with it. However, without threat overload, the Ghost Ark under performs and is an attractive target which also encourages players to take the lack-luster Necron Warrior, which encourages players to take expensive Royal Courts to make those warriors less squishy (65point resorb lords, 90 points with Scarabs)...

Just so.... ugh...

-- EDIT --

20 Warriors = 260 points, Rez Orb Lord with Scarabs = 90, Ghost Ark = 115 (465)

For that many points, you can have two squads of 10 immortals with ResOrb Lords (470)

That's two scoring units of Immortals with their 3+ save that are equally difficult to dislodge as the warriors (3+ vs 4+ armour, but less of them and no D3 rez per turn).

loreweaver wrote:
- It's 115 points (15 points more than the superior Night Scythe, which is super-sonic (4+ turbo-boost save), holds more guys, holds any kind of guy, including 5 Tomb Blades, and has a better gun)

Night Scythes are even more terrible. They're easier to kill and will never hold any of those other kinds of guys since they can't start the game with them and will be dead before they can embark.

Yuber wrote:Except there is a flaw in that argument, because any decent 40k player would know better than to try to shoot it to bits with small arms fire.

They will probably be eating assault or heavy artillery plates - nothing which the ghost ark can really help with.

How does a pie plate do a great effect on the necrons in cover?
A smart necron player will spread the unit out so you will get at maximum 5 models. Lets say you wound with 4 of them, they will make 2 cover saves and 1 WWB roll. To really hurt the necrons, you need to throw a -TON- of pie plates at the unit, and to be honest, most armies don't have those kinds of units.
Furthermore, would you rather pie plate the necrons sitting on an objective, or the scarabs rushing your army?

So the next answer is to assault the necron blob. Well, what do you assault with?

Sometimes I think people are crazy. Warriors ca hold their own against other enemies. For example, what will work better against an ork horde? Lots of cheap, rapid fire spam or a couple of elite units? You need to actually consider. Immortals are quite situational: if you have a mob of Kroot in Devilfishes headed towards, you may bust a few, but ultimately you're probably going to get swept over and over again. At least warriors are expendable...

loreweaver wrote:
People saying that the 20 warriors are hard to dislodge in combat, keep in mind that you don't get to pick your mindshackle target, it's randomly selected model from what's in base-to-base contact with the mindshackle scarab holder. If I'm assaulting, I'm putting a regular dude in base with the shackler.

Also, those lords have 2 attacks with WS4, that's one dead thing. The overlord only has 4 attacks with WS4, that's two dead things. (depending on the thing).

Mephiston *wrecks* that 20 strong unit (especially if he's not by himself).

Mephiston has a 50% chance of sticking a sword up his own ass against a 20 strong with MSS protecting them. Even if it doesn't go off Meph kills what, 5 warriors on the charge?

So your lord gets: .66 wounds, your warriors get .21 wounds and your O-lord gets 1. So you lose combat about 2 to 5, and make a lead test on a 7 or under? So factoring in him passing the MSS test that's about a 20% chance of getting swept. Not a particularly devastating threat. This is also assuming Meph gets the charge unscathed, another huge assumption.

DarknessEternal wrote:

loreweaver wrote:
- It's 115 points (15 points more than the superior Night Scythe, which is super-sonic (4+ turbo-boost save), holds more guys, holds any kind of guy, including 5 Tomb Blades, and has a better gun)

Night Scythes are even more terrible. They're easier to kill and will never hold any of those other kinds of guys since they can't start the game with them and will be dead before they can embark.

I have to disagree there with you chief. A Night Scythe can hold more things (15 models vs the Ghost Arks 10), can hold jump infantry (2 spots each), and can hold Jetbikes (3 spots each).
A Ghost Ark is only allowed to hold Warriors, Crypteks, Lords, and HQ. It is not permitted to hold Lychguard, Deathmarks, etc... (things that can all either buy a Night Scythe, or at least hop into one).

It can also turbo-boost 18-36" 's earning a 4+ cover save. For a Ghost Ark to get a 4+ cover save, it has to obscure 50% of it's massive frame.

I would take AV 11 non-open-topped with a 4+ save over AV 13 open-topped (down to AV 11 after a pen) with no cover save.

A dude still needs to shoot S6 or better at the Night Scythe to deal with it, and it still has living metal.

To use a Night Scythe, your contents almost always disembark on turn 2, then you've got a fast moving AV 11 thing on the board with another twin-linked tesla destructor. A gun that pops most transports in the game *significantly better* than a bunch of S4 guass shots.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

loreweaver wrote:
People saying that the 20 warriors are hard to dislodge in combat, keep in mind that you don't get to pick your mindshackle target, it's randomly selected model from what's in base-to-base contact with the mindshackle scarab holder. If I'm assaulting, I'm putting a regular dude in base with the shackler.

Also, those lords have 2 attacks with WS4, that's one dead thing. The overlord only has 4 attacks with WS4, that's two dead things. (depending on the thing).

Mephiston *wrecks* that 20 strong unit (especially if he's not by himself).

Mephiston has a 50% chance of sticking a sword up his own ass against a 20 strong with MSS protecting them. Even if it doesn't go off Meph kills what, 5 warriors on the charge?

So your lord gets: .66 wounds, your warriors get .21 wounds and your O-lord gets 1. So you lose combat about 2 to 5, and make a lead test on a 7 or under? So factoring in him passing the MSS test that's about a 20% chance of getting swept. Not a particularly devastating threat. This is also assuming Meph gets the charge unscathed, another huge assumption.

I'm arguing that an Assaulty HQ isn't charging that unit by himself. If you've got 260 pts (20 warriors) + 90 points (Scythe RC Lord with Orb & Scarabs) + 165 points (OL with Scythe, Scarabs, Weave, 3++) doing nothing but worrying about Mephiston, I call that a win for the Blood Angels. What have you done about Furioso, the Razor Backs, the Jump Pack Dudes, or the Land-Raider?

Not to mention that those warriors really don't like that heavy flamer Baal Predator smashing them on the first turn (If Necrons go 2nd).

The fact when you move 12" you can fire from neither the embarked units nor the flayer arrays really hurts this model.

Ghost Arks are also very cumbersome to fit in an army. They require very particular situations to make up their points cost, but what else is new for the necrons. The arks collection of rather innocuous disadvantages seems to have gone unaccounted in its point cost and has led to a very awkward unit that most of us are still trying to figure out a very efficient way to play.

For instance, it really does require you to play with warriors for it to make up it's points, but not just have them inside, you want it to be able to carry something (because 5 firing gauss flayers and mobile cover/potential regen really doesn't feel worth 115 points) at the same time you really aren't getting your points worth if there are no warriors within 6" of it. So cumbersome!


The exception of this seems to be the 250 point min warriors with 2 lances in an ark. I don't feel too bad not regenerating with that in the air because it's so resilient and it really reminds me of what moving and shooting a landraider is like. Still feels like breaking even as opposed to feeling mean like razorspammers get to feel.

One way around this is the blob of warriors with one lord and a phearon both with mindshacklers and whatever cc weapon you like (you can cut an orb and a lord if you're tight on points). The blob advances, with a nearby ark carrying some number of Harbingers that suit your taste making your warriors an unpleasant target for assault or shooting. It's expensive as all get out, but that ark is really doing something, and it allows a bunch of your other efficiently costed, but awkward units to do their thing.


I've also always really liked the idea of filling my arks with an overlord and a lord attached to a minimized warrior squad and running face first towards the enemy. I've never seen it happen, and it looks wonky, but I love the thought of getting aggressive with your mindshackle scarabs.

Lucre wrote:The fact when you move 12" you can fire from neither the embarked units nor the flayer arrays really hurts this model.

Uh mate, you can fire the arrays at 12". They are defensive weapons.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lucre wrote:The fact when you move 12" you can fire from neither the embarked units nor the flayer arrays really hurts this model.

Uh mate, you can fire the arrays at 12". They are defensive weapons.

"A vehicle that has moved at combat speed can fire all of it's defensive weapons in addition to the single weapon it is usually allowed to fire"

Fast vehicles have an qualifier to allow them in crusing speed but Ghost Arks are sadly not fast vehicles, unless I'm wrong and about to get really excited.

Lucre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lucre wrote:The fact when you move 12" you can fire from neither the embarked units nor the flayer arrays really hurts this model.

Uh mate, you can fire the arrays at 12". They are defensive weapons.

"A vehicle that has moved at combat speed can fire all of it's defensive weapons in addition to the single weapon it is usually allowed to fire"

Fast vehicles have an qualifier to allow them in crusing speed but Ghost Arks are sadly not fast vehicles, unless I'm wrong and about to get really excited.

What does it say under cruising speed? I don't have my BRB with me, but I sure it disallows main weapons but allows defensive.

I thought you couldn't fire Defensive Weapons at Cruising Speed. Can someone look this up? I'll change my Ghost Ark score to "meh, I might take one I guess", up from "so horrible only baby seals take them".

I actually built and actively run a mech'ed cron list and I have to say Arks are quite reasonable. But they are by no means a win button...

AV13 is AV13... And if played correctly you can completely remove an extremely large portion of your opponents potential firepower by simply limiting targets to AV13 and AV14 vehicles.

At 2,000 pts I run 9-10 AV13+ vehicles. Those terrible str4 shots hurt when they come in groups of 25-30 x 6. I've glanced entire IG tank squads off the table with just ghost arks and warriors. The biggest issue is that necrons do their best at 12''. Which is a very very dangerous range to want to be at. You have to select your target prioritization very carefully, and kill whatever is hovering at the magic 12'' line.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What does it say under cruising speed? I don't have my BRB with me, but I sure it disallows main weapons but allows defensive.

You're moving and firing with vehicles chart seems to cover when you are allowed to fire defensive weapons. Page 73. Made me sad to check it...

Maybe sixth will see more broadsiding and hurricane pattern bolter use.

loreweaver wrote:
I have to disagree there with you chief. A Night Scythe can hold more things (15 models vs the Ghost Arks 10), can hold jump infantry (2 spots each), and can hold Jetbikes (3 spots each).

It can also turbo-boost 18-36" 's earning a 4+ cover save. For a Ghost Ark to get a 4+ cover save, it has to obscure 50% of it's massive frame.

It can't move flat out the turn it embarks any of those non-Warrior/Immortal things. They can't start the game in it.

DarknessEternal wrote:

loreweaver wrote:
I have to disagree there with you chief. A Night Scythe can hold more things (15 models vs the Ghost Arks 10), can hold jump infantry (2 spots each), and can hold Jetbikes (3 spots each).

It can also turbo-boost 18-36" 's earning a 4+ cover save. For a Ghost Ark to get a 4+ cover save, it has to obscure 50% of it's massive frame.

It can't move flat out the turn it embarks any of those non-Warrior/Immortal things. They can't start the game in it.

Ah-ha my dear friend. A unit of Lychguard with Warscythes can! And they can have a Royal Court in there with them.

Hahaha it would be a good way to get a unit of lychguard close enough to use those dumb ass shields!

If the av11 and +4 invulnerable save stands up at close range...

5 lychguard with shields
+ harbinger of eternity with chronometron
+ necron overlord with mind shackle scarabs, and warscythe

Why anounce a fact that is globaly known?????

Ravnak wrote:Why anounce a fact that is globaly known?????

Did you just skip two pages of debate to post that gem? Or were you referring to something other then OP?

In Ravnak's defense, I would take him in a 40K battle over a Ghost Ark 100% of the time.

Wait, what are we talking about?

loreweaver wrote:In Ravnak's defense, I would take him in a 40K battle over a Ghost Ark 100% of the time.

Wait, what are we talking about?

Awesome.