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Read game 2, and I was utterly impressed with how well your army performed.

You basically crippled him turn 1.

Id also like to add that you forgot around 3 Razors and squads to add to the GK's list, because he had alot more than what you said.

Overall great job, and its very interesting to see your shooty marine army doing work.


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yermom wrote:Hey Jesse, this is your second round opponent. I do appreciate you not using my name, but I would like to share my side of the story on you accusations. I messed up the hammerhand thing, and to be honest it was a real mistake. I just checked it after reading your battle report and I saw that you were right. There is nothing I can really say about this other then that I'm sorry,and I will make a point not to do that again in the future.

(On a simillar note, since the game ended after turn 6, it wouldn't have matter as that objective was contested either way by the other strike squad, not that that is the point at all.)
.
As far as claiming the deathcults to have a 4+ armor save, I really am completely sure I did no such thing. I've been playing with death cults for months now, and in all my other games of the tournament I had told my opponents 5++, and I'm sure other players can attest to that. I have been going to tournaments like this for years, and for me to cheat about something so blatently false, would not only be stupid, but also pointless. I'm not callin you out, as you seemed to be a really nice cool headed guy, and I'm going to assume that this was probably a miscommunication. Perhaps you thought I said I was taking cover saves or something, to be honest I don;t remember. But I mean there are live videos of me playing and losing, and I'm really not someone who would blatently cheat to win like this. In 2 of my games, I let my opponents go back and retake critical mistakes which could have easily cost me the game. One of those was against Eric in round 5 when it really mattered when he forgot to use a solar pulse.

I'm not saying any of this because I want to start a fight with you, especially since you were a pretty cool guy to hang out with, but I would like my side of the story to be heard, which is that I really don;t recall aying the deathcults have a 4+ armor at all.

Regardless, I still had a great game against you, and I really enjoyed it despit losing. I think I misdeployed in the begining which really hurt, but I'm not sure. You played a very tight game and never really slipped up, so great job!

So if you took the 5+ saved why didnt the DCA get auto whiped by flamers?

Sounds like you had a blast with that one.

Great job tabling a TWC list, thats pretty hard to do and impressive. Im not sure why your opponent didnt move up the rest of his army to support the TWC, that would have changed the entire game.

You basically fought a 2k list, against a 1k list, because the magority of his armt stayed back and literally did nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just read game 5. In my opinion you should point out flaws after the game is over. You should also be more positive. You cant win every game at warhammer. You made just as many mistakes in every game so far, just you won the other games so you didnt analyze them.

The only thing you should have done was avoid the sides of the board for the genestealers. Besides that it was a good game.

nice last game vs the tyranids.

Overall very good job in the tourney, your army performed well.

If you had only played 3 games of 40k, how did you know the rules and other armies so well?

Smitty0305 wrote:

So if you took the 5+ saved why didnt the DCA get auto whiped by flamers?

Because it is an invulnerable save that the DCA come with...?

If you had only played 3 games of 40k, how did you know the rules and other armies so well

I read a lot of battle reports and monitor most of the geek sites very closely. I also try out different lists against my list on Vassal (me vs me basically). I mock up games against lists that look hard to beat. I find the lists here in the army sections and also on some of the the blogs, ie They Shall Know Fear, etc. Then I practice playing against that list on Vassal until I'm confident that I can handle it in almost any scenario. While I'm practicing I look up army stats, special powers, rules, etc, so I have a decent grasp of their capabilities. This also lets me figure out different ways to play my army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

You cant win every game at warhammer

Bullsh*t. I'm not going to say that I'm the best player in the game, because clearly I'm not, but you can win every game of warhammer. I don't believe in that "my list trumps your list crap" or "that army can't win because the codex sucks" garbage either. My personal belief is that you find an army that fits your playstyle, you take that army and tailor it to your playstyle and at the same time try your best to max/min strengths/weaknesses and then go out and practice with it to get better. This is a game of dice and human factors; a good player can lose to a bad player because of dice just as easily as he can win. Capitalize on your opponent's mistakes while minimizing your own, be flexible, and understand your army (and his to the greatest extent possible) and you can win every game. If you're that good and comfortable with your list at that point, then the only thing that can stop you are your dice and you can mitigate the impact the dice have through proper movement and use of tactics.

Excellent thread! Thanks for the detailed analysis with each game.

I definitely feel your pain from Game 5. It's great that you can highlight your mistakes so clearly - makes it very easy for people who read the thread to avoid those same mishaps.

I'm definitely feeling the paint scheme as well, so post some more batreps with pictures when you get a chance

THE ARMY

DISCLAIMER: Everything in this post is my opinion and only my opinion. What works for me won't work for everyone and vice-versa. Not looking to start a geek war here, so if you wish to criticize please keep it constructive.

Before I explain how this army works, I need to explain how it came about. The list I used at the last tournament I attended:

libby
5 SG- 3 combi melta, 2 combi flamer, rhino
2 x IC dread
10 man tac w/PF, melta, combi'melta, multimelta w/rhino (2 of these)
5 man tac in las/plas back (2 of these)
2 x typhoon
multi-melta/heavy flamer speeder
2 x auto/las pred
vindicator

I had a lot of problems with this list. I had difficulty popping tanks and when I finally did, I had even more difficulty killing the guys inside. The ICDs were too one-dimensional. I had the tac squads tooled for assault with PFs. The vindi had to move forward to target things and was too easily nuetralized. I was horrible at using the melta/flamer speeder. I found that I had to move the preds a lot to because my opponent would just stay out of LOS of them.

So after that last tournament, I sat down to figure out a way to fix these problems. Of course, not all of my issues were with my list, but with the way I was playing it and of course this list really didn't suit my playstyle. I finally realized that vanila marines sucked in assault, period, There is no unit in the SM codex that is truly good at assault and that includes TH/SS termies. They're better than average, but not great. I had tried to use the ICDs as counter assault or assault units and then finally realized that at best they're tarpit units, nothing more. The PF in tac squads were crap, because you only hit once (usually). Sure, you were going to kill what you hit, but 25 pts was just too much to pay for it. The muli-meltas were too short ranged and easily avoided, plus they conflicted with the typhoons and preds. The melta/flamer speeder would usually get one shot (and miss) and then get taken out. The vindicator was countered by terrain for infantry and usually missed the tanks, or was just ignored by the opponent.

So I set out to fix the problems I had. Once I figured out that vanilla marines (all units) were crap in assault, things got easier. I dropped the ICDs for rifleman dreads. This would allow me to pop light transports and also give me the option to take out infantry if needed. The SG I really liked and were versitile, plus they gave the libby an escort, so they stayed. The PFs went away; I could spend 50 pts somewhere else and get more out of it. The multi-meltas in the tac squads were exchanged for lascannons to give me better range and slightly more punch. The two las/plas squads remained unchanged. The flamer/melta speeder was dropped for two multi-melta attack bikes. This gave me far more survivability and two shots instead of one. The auto/las preds were swapped for dakka preds. This would give me more infantry killing power and the autocannons could be used to pop light transports if needed. The vindi was dropped for devs and an assback. The devs would let me take on tanks and/or infantry as needed and who doesn't like a TL asscannon? So the true test would be to see how it all came together.

Once I started playing this list I fell in love with it. I didn't miss the lack of assault or counter-assault, because I never really had it anyway. I didn't miss the S10 pie-plate, because cover usually negated it anyway. I didn't miss the melta/flamer speeder because he never really contributed.

The synergy was incredible. The 10 man tacs could combat squad as needed for objective missions, which still left me four scoring units moving forward, usually backed up by the libby/SG. The typhoons would either stay behind the dreads, preds, or rhinos for cover while being able to shoot over them. The preds would hang out with the las squads and/or dreads. The devs would usually go in the middle or on an elevated position. They would either be ignored, allowing them to fire every turn, or targetted quickly, which left my las squads unmolested. The bikes would advance behind the forward rhinos, taking shots from behind cover.

One of the things I realized with this list is that opponents had a hard time with target priority. I have two of everything but the devs and SG, so what do you shoot at first? You shoot the devs and the lascannons, TL autocannons, and typhoons get you. You take out my transports and all the long range fire gets you. Another thing I realized is that almost every unit could function on two planes, either as anti-tank or anti-infantry, depending on what I needed at that time. Certainly some units were better at one role than some other units, but they all could multi-task. I was really missing this in my previous list. I had a good helping of melta if any mech units got near me. The combination of the SG flamers with avenger was just devastating on infantry, followed up by venom rounds from the other three SG. The preds were great against either SMs or xenos, either bypassing armor saves or forcing so many saves that some would be failed. The typhoons were pure gold against infantry and did well against tanks as well. The las/plas gave me the AP 2 that I lacked, as well as long range tank busting power. The bikes created a huge area denial threat, as well as contesting objectives when needed. The asscannon I usually kept in reserve, so that when it came in either something would be in range or a squad that had their rhino popped could jump in it. All-in-all, it did everything that I asked it to and I wouldn't change a thing. My two losses were because of me, not any failing in my list.

To close, I did pretty well and didn't use the common SM crutch of land raider/termies or any special characters (Vulkan I'm looking at you). Most of the people took a look at my list and went "ummmm, yeeeaaaaahhhhh, you really don't have anything there". I'm cool with that. I'd rather have people underestimate me than take me seriously; it helps my win/lose record .

Anyway, this was a long post and I'm finally done with it. Until next time.

Neat!
I like your reasoning behind the army, and I must say it seems like you've hit the bullseye on what a marine army should be, namely tacticaly flexible (even if nullzone didn't matter at all).

Good writeup! This is (IMO) one of the best and classic army philosophies; redundancy, maneuverability, many interchangeable parts with no linchpin.

I didn't have Vassal as an option when I started, but I did similar homework; reading 100+ battle reports online, plus tactica and army list analyses before I ever put a mini on the table myself.

One of the best series of battle reports I have read in a long time. Thank you. I hope you do these on a regular basis.

jesse wrote:

Spoiler:

THE ARMY

DISCLAIMER: Everything in this post is my opinion and only my opinion. What works for me won't work for everyone and vice-versa. Not looking to start a geek war here, so if you wish to criticize please keep it constructive.

Before I explain how this army works, I need to explain how it came about. The list I used at the last tournament I attended:

libby
5 SG- 3 combi melta, 2 combi flamer, rhino
2 x IC dread
10 man tac w/PF, melta, combi'melta, multimelta w/rhino (2 of these)
5 man tac in las/plas back (2 of these)
2 x typhoon
multi-melta/heavy flamer speeder
2 x auto/las pred
vindicator

I had a lot of problems with this list. I had difficulty popping tanks and when I finally did, I had even more difficulty killing the guys inside. The ICDs were too one-dimensional. I had the tac squads tooled for assault with PFs. The vindi had to move forward to target things and was too easily nuetralized. I was horrible at using the melta/flamer speeder. I found that I had to move the preds a lot to because my opponent would just stay out of LOS of them.

So after that last tournament, I sat down to figure out a way to fix these problems. Of course, not all of my issues were with my list, but with the way I was playing it and of course this list really didn't suit my playstyle. I finally realized that vanila marines sucked in assault, period, There is no unit in the SM codex that is truly good at assault and that includes TH/SS termies. They're better than average, but not great. I had tried to use the ICDs as counter assault or assault units and then finally realized that at best they're tarpit units, nothing more. The PF in tac squads were crap, because you only hit once (usually). Sure, you were going to kill what you hit, but 25 pts was just too much to pay for it. The muli-meltas were too short ranged and easily avoided, plus they conflicted with the typhoons and preds. The melta/flamer speeder would usually get one shot (and miss) and then get taken out. The vindicator was countered by terrain for infantry and usually missed the tanks, or was just ignored by the opponent.

So I set out to fix the problems I had. Once I figured out that vanilla marines (all units) were crap in assault, things got easier. I dropped the ICDs for rifleman dreads. This would allow me to pop light transports and also give me the option to take out infantry if needed. The SG I really liked and were versitile, plus they gave the libby an escort, so they stayed. The PFs went away; I could spend 50 pts somewhere else and get more out of it. The multi-meltas in the tac squads were exchanged for lascannons to give me better range and slightly more punch. The two las/plas squads remained unchanged. The flamer/melta speeder was dropped for two multi-melta attack bikes. This gave me far more survivability and two shots instead of one. The auto/las preds were swapped for dakka preds. This would give me more infantry killing power and the autocannons could be used to pop light transports if needed. The vindi was dropped for devs and an assback. The devs would let me take on tanks and/or infantry as needed and who doesn't like a TL asscannon? So the true test would be to see how it all came together.

Once I started playing this list I fell in love with it. I didn't miss the lack of assault or counter-assault, because I never really had it anyway. I didn't miss the S10 pie-plate, because cover usually negated it anyway. I didn't miss the melta/flamer speeder because he never really contributed.

Spoiler:

The synergy was incredible. The 10 man tacs could combat squad as needed for objective missions, which still left me four scoring units moving forward, usually backed up by the libby/SG. The typhoons would either stay behind the dreads, preds, or rhinos for cover while being able to shoot over them. The preds would hang out with the las squads and/or dreads. The devs would usually go in the middle or on an elevated position. They would either be ignored, allowing them to fire every turn, or targetted quickly, which left my las squads unmolested. The bikes would advance behind the forward rhinos, taking shots from behind cover.

One of the things I realized with this list is that opponents had a hard time with target priority. I have two of everything but the devs and SG, so what do you shoot at first? You shoot the devs and the lascannons, TL autocannons, and typhoons get you. You take out my transports and all the long range fire gets you. Another thing I realized is that almost every unit could function on two planes, either as anti-tank or anti-infantry, depending on what I needed at that time. Certainly some units were better at one role than some other units, but they all could multi-task. I was really missing this in my previous list. I had a good helping of melta if any mech units got near me. The combination of the SG flamers with avenger was just devastating on infantry, followed up by venom rounds from the other three SG. The preds were great against either SMs or xenos, either bypassing armor saves or forcing so many saves that some would be failed. The typhoons were pure gold against infantry and did well against tanks as well. The las/plas gave me the AP 2 that I lacked, as well as long range tank busting power. The bikes created a huge area denial threat, as well as contesting objectives when needed. The asscannon I usually kept in reserve, so that when it came in either something would be in range or a squad that had their rhino popped could jump in it. All-in-all, it did everything that I asked it to and I wouldn't change a thing. My two losses were because of me, not any failing in my list.

To close, I did pretty well and didn't use the common SM crutch of land raider/termies or any special characters (Vulkan I'm looking at you). Most of the people took a look at my list and went "ummmm, yeeeaaaaahhhhh, you really don't have anything there". I'm cool with that. I'd rather have people underestimate me than take me seriously; it helps my win/lose record .

Anyway, this was a long post and I'm finally done with it. Until next time.

I agree that Vanilla Space Marines generally handle CC rather poorly, I don't think that every CC unit is bad. Honor Guard squads can field 7 Relic Blades plus a Chapter Banner, and you can give your Chapter Master a Relic Blade and storm shield, making for... something like 40 S6 PW attacks at I4? Obviously not the best, but not bad at all, aside from the huge point cost. Command Squads can all be equipped with PWs and SSs, plus they have FNP. Then the captain can have a Relic Blade and SS, again making a decent, if not pretty good CC unit. Against Necrons and horde armies, these two units would own face in CC, especially if thrown in a LR.

I also agree that SMs are far better at range, which is what I plan to do with mine (hopefully my plan of 6 dreadnaughts+MotF w/ Beamer will work as well as I think it will).

I would love to see that set-up across from me on a table. That's about 450ish pts without a ride. A squad like that will probably by in a landraider, so tack on another 250+ pts, so now we're at 700 pts (give or take). So you have a chapter master and five honor guard, all packing relic blades. If it were me, I'd use a 95 pt tac squad or 100 pt AB squad to kill the 250+pts raider. My suicide squad would of course be wiped off the table in the next turn, then I'd shoot the chapter master and honor guard off the board. I've just taken out the "death star" without even really trying. These guys would fold against almost any dedicated assault squad. TWC would eat them for breakfast, DW would rape them (and they're not even really a dedicated assault army), Meph would kill most of them before they could even swing; you get the point. We just don't have a good assault unit. Like I've said, the best we can do is TH/SS marines and a puny 100 pt libby with nullzone can make them pee their termy armor.

OTOH, you can take 5 or 10 TH/SS marines, and combo them with the null zone libby to make enemy terminators cry, and/or Vulkan for master-crafted, or Shrike for fleet and to make a big squad infiltrate to be threatening T2 assaults and constricting enemy movement from T1. It is a bunch of points, and a very different approach from your list, but it's certainly viable.

Excellent point, but I never said they weren't viable; only that they're not assault specialists and they're easy to counter. What you've listed is pretty much the best we can do as vanilla marines, but they still fold in the face of true assault units.

Welcome