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Summing up the Imperial Truth would be this statement from the Fallen Emperor:

"Only in the light can it achieve its full potential. Humanity is the same, and only when the suffocating shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question is gone from this world will we see its true brilliance."

- The Last Church on Terra

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:In fact it's completely pointless because they don't have time anyway so really only realspace events matter.

By insisting on trying to understand the Immaterium only in terms of the Materium, you are setting yourself up for failure.

If realspace events don't matter, cutting off realspace from the Warp as the oldcrons planned and the newcrons might be planning would have been meaningless.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:In fact it's completely pointless because they don't have time anyway so really only realspace events matter.

By insisting on trying to understand the Immaterium only in terms of the Materium, you are setting yourself up for failure.

On the contrary, I'm separating them completely. If event's 1-3 happen in a left-to-right-way and 4 then went right and then left and up and down the point is 1-3 still happened first. The Dark Gods are not time travelling supervillians who use their time travelling super powers to thwart the Imperium at ever turn before it even happens. In fact I don't think there's a single mention of the Big 4 ever going back in time to do anything.

They can't. Because time DOES exist in the Warp, just not in the ordered fashion it exists in reality.

Manchu wrote:If time is not ordered then it is not time. It makes sense to say that Slaanesh did not intervene in events in the Milky Way before M29. It does not make sense to say that Slaanesh did not exist before M29, except from a very narrow point of view that basically excludes understanding Slaanesh, the Warp, and the other Chaos Gods.

Time in the Warp could be described as an hourglass, all the tiny grains of sand moving towards a single end, but can an infinitely varied route to get there. The 'gods' or even Chaos per se did not exist at all before the War in Heaven. Back then, the Immaterium was calm and peaceful, and while predators lived in the Warp, they were not the malevolent sentient 'daemons' of the present. It was only during the War in Heaven did the Immaterium get twisted into Warp, and 'gods' and 'daemons' came into existence.

Manchu wrote:Nope. Chaos is the Warp; the Warp is Chaos.

Which absolutely contradicts all the fluff on the War in Heaven.

Manchu wrote:No it doesn't. Why do you think the Old Ones invented the Webway in the first place?

FTL travel that was faster and more reliable than Warp jumping? In fact, the reason the Eldar weren't created until the situation turned desperate was because the Old Ones feared that violent psychic races would have a catastrophic effect on balance of the Warp. They were right. It was only after the Eldar turned the tide with their psychic powers did 'daemons' come into existence and the Warp was reduced into a nightmarish mire.

King Pariah wrote:
And cutting off our galaxy does starve out chaos. Ever read the fluff about the necron pylons (i prefer obelisks, gets too confusing with the Necron Pylons from FW otherwise)? The C'tan were constructing those pylons to a)cut our galaxy off from the Warp, b) starve out the gods in the Warp effectively rendering them impotent (sucks for Slaanesh ). And that fluff has yet to be countered/rendered obsolete.

Weren't one of the three goals of the Star Gods in the oldcron codex the destruction of Chaos?

KP- winning

lol.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote: more reliable than Warp jumping

Wonder why ...

Also, I just read the pages of Necron fluff quoted by Lexicanum and they do not support your points (or theirs). On page 26, it is said that the warp magicks of the young races disturbed the Warp so that entities in the Warp became predacious towards real space. In other words, exactly what I have been saying all along.

No, they only became that way because of the disruptions caused by the War in Heaven. 'Gods' and 'daemons' did not exist until the War in Heaven's final, violent, phases.

King Pariah wrote:Chaos is most definitely NOT the warp.

Refuted by explicit reference: C:CD 4E p6

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:'Gods' and 'daemons' did not exist until the War in Heaven's final, violent, phases.

Go read the book. Page 26: "Older warp entities became terrifying predators ..."

Exactly. They 'became' - only the disruptions in the Warp caused by the material universe made them that way.

Then the existence of the Emperor (before his death), the Ork Gods, and perhaps the Eldar Gods are rendered moot.

Not even close.

Why not? If all the Warp is Chaos, then the shamans shouldn't have succeeded in creating their collective reincarnation. Why would Chaos allow something more powerful than itself manifest in the form of the Ork Gods? Why gods of order like the Eldar Gods exist at all?

Elector wrote:Here's a possible explanation: with enough psychic power, the Warp energies could be manipulated, right? Psykers do so all the time, albeit on a massively smaller scale, so why couldn't warp entities like the Eldar Gods and shamans (collectively the, or one of the, most powerful psykers ever?)

Still doesn't explain how Gork and Mork could exist if all the Warp is Chaos. Orks aren't like other psykers. They don't draw on the Warp, they generate their own latent psychic field.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:We're all losers...

And proud of it!

Aye, that's the one thing we can all agree on!

Pilau Rice wrote:

When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way.

It's a head fnarp basically, they haven't existed yet they always have, so even though we say that they came into being during the middle ages they were in fact always there and never there

Which proves my belief that the Powers of Chaos were equal or stronger than the Eldar Gods.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Then the existence of the Emperor (before his death), the Ork Gods, and perhaps the Eldar Gods are rendered moot.

Not even close.

Why not? If all the Warp is Chaos, then the shamans shouldn't have succeeded in creating their collective reincarnation. Why would Chaos allow something more powerful than itself manifest in the form of the Ork Gods? Why gods of order like the Eldar Gods exist at all?

They don't have much choice in the matter I guess, emotions formed them and the emotions of other races will give birth to other things. The Shamans recognised the threat in the Chaos Gods and made the sacrifice themselves to bring about the life of the Emperor. It's much like Psykers and Ships using the Warp, they can do it using their own will, but woe betide should you attract the attentions of the predators in the warp.

brentyboi wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor is empowered by believers. The Chaos gods are not powered by believers, but evil and corruption via humans and adhumans

Would like to point out that the Emperor is powered by the hope of his beleivers, not the beleif itself, IMO

The God-Emperor is...an incomplete 'god' in the Warp. The Emperor died in the Horus Heresy.

Pilau Rice wrote:


It is hard to explain though and I am not sure anyone can, I get what you are saying. I think you are being to restrictive in your thinking. Perhaps if the sentence was along the lines of Chaos is made of the stuff of the warp, but the warp is Chaos? Basically the Warp is a chaotic place, where there is no time or no up or down, and Chaos, the actual denizens are made of the stuff of the Warp

Yes, it is hard to explain ...

I think I've got it. The Warp is a chaotic place, but the 'Chaos' represented by the Four Powers do not represent the Warp as a whole, nor do they have complete control over it. This is why the Orks and maybe Eldar were able to 'believe' their 'gods' into existence, and how the shamans could create the Emperor. On a lesser level, this allows trained psykers of any race to use the Warp with relative safety.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:We really don't know what the Eldar and Ork "gods" are. I'm not going to even touch on the subject of Gork and Mork because there is nothing even remotely trustworthy written about them.

That's a rather nonsensical thing to say.

IF you think codices making unequivocal statements about the subject (which are not attributed to the orks themselves, I should note, but are instead written from the narrator's perspective) are "nothing even remotely trustworthy", then I would go so far as to say you only think things you agree with are trustworthy.

She does have a point. The fluff on Gork and Mork from Codex: Orks 4th Edition is quite clear to their power level and nature.

Manchu wrote:That codex is also quite clear that the orks always win every battle even when they lose. :/

Because they never actually lose. They'll just keep coming back. In-universe, that's the reason Orks are the most successful race in the galaxy. For them survival is not a question - its a fact.

Manchu wrote:They're not interested in survival; they're just interested in fighting. They're also not interested in understanding the Warp. The Ork perspective isn't much good for finding anything out about the 40k universe except regarding the Ork perspective itself.

Why should they worry about survival when there's no need to so? And the existence of Gork and Mork (who surpass all others in the Warp) make it clear that belief has as much effect as emotion in the Warp. The Ork perspective is the purest in 40k...everything else is muddled by civilization, history, culture, etc. Just look at the Orks and there you see the perfect species and the perfect example for Warhammer 40,000.

Manchu wrote:So are you going to change you avatar and sig to something about orks now?

Of course not. Pardon me if I lapse this once into roleplay but, I fight for the Fallen Emperor's ideals of truth and enlightenment, not the whims of a council of bureaucrats.

Manchu wrote:You know, if you really like that idea you might want a Soul Drinkers avatar rather than a 1k Sons avatar. They think exactly the same way.

Thing is, and once again sorry if I slip into roleplay, I'd rather go after the Black Library and use its knowledge to go back in time and stop the Horus Heresy from ever happening. AT ALL. Blood Ravens could possibly be Thousand Sons, are more knowledgeable about the Warp, and are my favorite legion.

DOOMBREAD wrote:The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.

*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.

No. The Imperial Truths sets aside faith, superstition, and religion for reason, logic, and scientific progress. The Emperor had the XIII Legio Astartes Ultramarines burn Monarchia to the ground as it was the center of the Lectitio Divinitatus (the old name for the Imperial Cult).

jgehunter wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.

*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.

No. The Imperial Truths sets aside faith, superstition, and religion for reason, logic, and scientific progress. The Emperor had the XIII Legio Astartes Ultramarines burn Monarchia to the ground as it was the center of the Lectitio Divinitatus (the old name for the Imperial Cult).

That's not entirely true, the Imperial Truth was basically a lie to hide Chaos to the people, personally, after reading the Horus Heresy books I get the impression that the emperor is not as "good" as people think of him, while his initial goal seems very clear, it seems to be more and more diluted as time passes.

You ought to read the older posts - we've been discussing for a long time now that the Imperial Truth was meant to 'kill' or 'emasculate' Chaos in the long-term.

jgehunter wrote:Although that was his plan I don't think it would have worked as it appears that Actions rather than Belief are what fuel them and while there were any Xenos left to kill, Khorne would still be up there.

...

We've already discussed that problem earlier...this thread is six pages long. Look for it.