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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tell that to the 5 man termy squad that gets nuked by a plasma grenade, which ignores armor saves due to ridiculous wording.

If someone foolishly spends points on Lelith Hesperax, they deserve to occasionally have her kill something, instead the usual.

She has about 9 attacks (4 Attacks+A League apart. WS of opponent is usually 4. Her's is 9). And they ignore armor. And she has initiative 9.
If you fail to kill something with her, you did something wrong.

Does she have a rule that prevents her from joining units?

She is also Strength 3. So against a unit of 5 basic Terminators that is 9 attacks, 6 hit, 2 wounds, 5+ Invulnerable on a Terminator = 1 dead Terminator.
Now the Terminators hit back. 7 attacks (she reduces the attacks of the model in base contact with her by one thanks to her Hair), 3.5 hit, 2.9166 wounds, 3+ Invulnerable save = 1 unsaved wound, which causes Instant Death.

She also doesn't have Combat Drugs so can't get extra strength, or re-rolls to wound from them. The only way to get her up to strength 4 is Furious Charge, which takes 2 Pain Tokens.

Yeah, she's a real powerhouse

 Ascalam wrote:
She can join units freely.

Like DE are supposed to be, she can pile on the hurt, but she is very very fragile.

She also costs an obscene amount of points for what she does, and is overcosted even then She's ok in challenges, but otherwise not that effective.

Sure, she has a lot of attacks. At S 3..

Against a marine unit she will get something like 9 attacks, and hit with about 6 of them. 2 will wound, ignore armour and kill marines. 2 marines dead isn't that much for an IC. How many Marines can Mephiston kill per round? He is near the same points for way more badassery. There are cheaper IC's that can pile on more hurt than she can.

Her stats look OMG OP!!! if you look only at the number of attacks and the WS/I entries, but she really isn't all that for her points.

Against Assault termies with TH/SS:

SHe will hit 6 times, wound twice, have at least one blocked by the SS (and often both).

They then get to hit her back.

Any hit she doesn't save, she's deader than canned spam.

Any Powerfist (even from an IG) or S6 attack she fails her save on (and her saves aren't that godly) will have wounded her on 2's and instakilled her. A Marine IC would likely still keep on trucking, muttering about being slightly scratched.

And that is why you back her up, and use the new IC rules to her advantage. You can't pick IC out anymore except in a challenge, iirc. There are also combat drugs. She may have been crappy in 5th ed, but I think she just got a lot deadlier in 6th. Oh, and she has grenades...which according to most of you here, should be allowed to benefit from that poorly written penetrating blade rule.

In fact, one idea that someone on /tg/ was to use her in conjunction with Drazar and incubi. I don't know about you, but that sounds scary.

Not saying you shouldn't. What are you backing her WITH though? Incubi are too spendy and don't need her help. Wyches are even frailer than her, and suck in CC these days, Warriors? feh.

She still isn't the equal of many opther assault oriented SC's, especially for her points.

She can be picked out by maneuvering her to be the closest model (2+ LOS still fails 1 time in 6) and peppering her, or jsut shooting up her unit until she is the only one left.

In CC she will likely be challenged to limit casualties. She either kills the sarge, or goes and stands at the back, doing nothing. If she's the nearest target in CC i believe she's the one that takes the hits, then having to LOS them away.

She is about as deadly as she ever was (not vastly)

Combat drugs are nice, yes, but not reliable in their effect.

She has grenades. So do a lot of folk.

I haven't argued that hers ignore armour saves, but going by the rules as written, they do. I personally play them as normal grenades so that my regular opponents don't get butthurt because mine are better than theirs are

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And that is why you back her up, and use the new IC rules to her advantage. You can't pick IC out anymore except in a challenge, iirc. There are also combat drugs. She may have been crappy in 5th ed, but I think she just got a lot deadlier in 6th. Oh, and she has grenades...which according to most of you here, should be allowed to benefit from that poorly written penetrating blade rule.

See: A Town Called Malus's post.

She has no drugs, the best combo I could think of to get her to S4 is Lelith + Haemy(liquifier) + 4 grotesques(liquifier, aberration w/ SH) on a raider, which would cost roughly about 480pts. And if I'm paying almost 500 pts, she better well be doing some serious damage... But actually we can still do better damage for cheaper with a decked out huskblade archon who would also have the PGL.

Don't think in a vacuum, everything looks scarier on paper than in actual game, shoot them down, their shooting range is 8", you're telling me you're really gonna struggle to keep your entire army away from them? There is a reason why every DE veterans refuse to field Lelith, and Ascalam and A Town Called Malus have both kindly listed them out for you.

Also 2 liquifiers can possibly do 2x S4 AP1 template on the termies..

In fact, one idea that someone on /tg/ was to use her in conjunction with Drazar and incubi. I don't know about you, but that sounds scary.

Very, but scary to the DE player really, he'll probably be able to field 2 venom-boarded warriors after paying for that expensive single purpose fragile assault unit that you could easily shoot down with a few guns*.

*Reminder: We're DE, you can look at our transport angrily and they'll explode and kill everyone inside.

EDIT: Oh, and throw your units inside terrain, watch everyone in that setup, but Lelith, attack at I1. Still scary?

Baronyu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And that is why you back her up, and use the new IC rules to her advantage. You can't pick IC out anymore except in a challenge, iirc. There are also combat drugs. She may have been crappy in 5th ed, but I think she just got a lot deadlier in 6th. Oh, and she has grenades...which according to most of you here, should be allowed to benefit from that poorly written penetrating blade rule.

See: A Town Called Malus's post.

She has no drugs, the best combo I could think of to get her to S4 is Lelith + Haemy(liquifier) + 4 grotesques(liquifier, aberration w/ SH) on a raider, which would cost roughly about 480pts. And if I'm paying almost 500 pts, she better well be doing some serious damage... But actually we can still do better damage for cheaper with a decked out huskblade archon who would also have the PGL.

Don't think in a vacuum, everything looks scarier on paper than in actual game, shoot them down, their shooting range is 8", you're telling me you're really gonna struggle to keep your entire army away from them? There is a reason why every DE veterans refuse to field Lelith, and Ascalam and A Town Called Malus have both kindly listed them out for you.

Also 2 liquifiers can possibly do 2x S4 AP1 template on the termies..

In fact, one idea that someone on /tg/ was to use her in conjunction with Drazar and incubi. I don't know about you, but that sounds scary.

Very, but scary to the DE player really, he'll probably be able to field 2 venom-boarded warriors after paying for that expensive single purpose fragile assault unit that you could easily shoot down with a few guns*.

*Reminder: We're DE, you can look at our transport angrily and they'll explode and kill everyone inside.

She doesn't have drugs? That's...kinda lame. I thought she was like, the master gladiator?
Well, I guess I just have a bad history with dedicated combat units then. Because it never goes well for me when they are on the table.
And that's with my entire army blazing away. Seriously, this one time, Drazar some-how managed to kill 20 warriors. In 1 turn. After getting shot at. By himself. And after overwatch.
I still have no bloody idea how that happened.

She doesn't need drugs, she's just that bad---.

Just stick her with an an Eldar unit and Fortune it. That should give her a little bit of survivability.

Yup. So have we moved on from parsing her rules to optimizing the strategic advantage of fielding her?

 Neorealist wrote:
Yup. So have we moved on from parsing her rules to optimizing the strategic advantage of fielding her?

...yes?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
She doesn't have drugs? That's...kinda lame. I thought she was like, the master gladiator?
Well, I guess I just have a bad history with dedicated combat units then. Because it never goes well for me when they are on the table.
And that's with my entire army blazing away. Seriously, this one time, Drazar some-how managed to kill 20 warriors. In 1 turn. After getting shot at. By himself. And after overwatch.
I still have no bloody idea how that happened.

She doesn't, she is supposed to be this super duper gladiator who can beat everyone and everything without taking drugs... I assume they forgot to mention that she was fighting some T1 model(Can we even get T1 in this game?) in the arena.

That's similar to my PTSD of Rune priest, my friend, somehow, managed to roll a lot of 6's on determining how many hits she gets on the Living lightning, so I usually just break down and cry when I hear the word "Living Lightning"(I'm actually crying and tearing my hair out right now, lemme find my webcam).

Drazhar is strong, but again, hide in cover, he has no grenade, now imagine your warscythe lychguards tearing his I1 body up. He also cost more than your Imotekh...

We're going slightly off topic though.

 Ascalam wrote:
How many Marines can Mephiston kill per round?

Assuming Mephiston gets the charge, 6 attacks, 4 hits, so assuming he gets his psychic power off, three and a bit dead marines.

Wow, what a massive difference

I don't think it's ever fair to compare characters from other codexes, because they're not really available. YMMV

Baronyu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
She doesn't have drugs? That's...kinda lame. I thought she was like, the master gladiator?
Well, I guess I just have a bad history with dedicated combat units then. Because it never goes well for me when they are on the table.
And that's with my entire army blazing away. Seriously, this one time, Drazar some-how managed to kill 20 warriors. In 1 turn. After getting shot at. By himself. And after overwatch.
I still have no bloody idea how that happened.

She doesn't, she is supposed to be this super duper gladiator who can beat everyone and everything without taking drugs... I assume they forgot to mention that she was fighting some T1 model(Can we even get T1 in this game?) in the arena.

Doesn't she have weapons at least? I thought she gets this weapon that allows her to reroll failed wounds and reduce her opponent's attacks by 1.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


She doesn't have drugs? That's...kinda lame. I thought she was like, the master gladiator?

It's because she's the master Gladiator that she doesn't get performance enhancing drugs

CthuluIsSpy wrote:...yes?

Just checking, because we do have a board for that...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Doesn't she have weapons at least? I thought she gets this weapon that allows her to reroll failed wounds and reduce her opponent's attacks by 1.

She has an additional close combat weapon (so she actually gets 5 attacks base before adding Leagues Apart attacks and charging bonus attacks etc.) and her hair reduces the attacks of everyone in base contact with her by 1 (to a minimum of 1).

So she can be a great tarpit if she's fighting something which is S5 and below without access to Instant Death. But for the points you pay for her that's not really cutting it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Baronyu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
She doesn't have drugs? That's...kinda lame. I thought she was like, the master gladiator?
Well, I guess I just have a bad history with dedicated combat units then. Because it never goes well for me when they are on the table.
And that's with my entire army blazing away. Seriously, this one time, Drazar some-how managed to kill 20 warriors. In 1 turn. After getting shot at. By himself. And after overwatch.
I still have no bloody idea how that happened.

She doesn't, she is supposed to be this super duper gladiator who can beat everyone and everything without taking drugs... I assume they forgot to mention that she was fighting some T1 model(Can we even get T1 in this game?) in the arena.

Doesn't she have weapons at least? I thought she gets this weapon that allows her to reroll failed wounds and reduce her opponent's attacks by 1.

She reduces opponents by one attack (shardnet) in base to base. She counts as having two CC weapons also, but that's irrelevant, as she would anyway.

She has diddly to allow her to reroll failed wounds.

Sounds like whoever used her on you was cheating

 Ascalam wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Baronyu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
She doesn't have drugs? That's...kinda lame. I thought she was like, the master gladiator?
Well, I guess I just have a bad history with dedicated combat units then. Because it never goes well for me when they are on the table.
And that's with my entire army blazing away. Seriously, this one time, Drazar some-how managed to kill 20 warriors. In 1 turn. After getting shot at. By himself. And after overwatch.
I still have no bloody idea how that happened.

She doesn't, she is supposed to be this super duper gladiator who can beat everyone and everything without taking drugs... I assume they forgot to mention that she was fighting some T1 model(Can we even get T1 in this game?) in the arena.

Doesn't she have weapons at least? I thought she gets this weapon that allows her to reroll failed wounds and reduce her opponent's attacks by 1.

She reduces opponents by one attack (shardnet) in base to base. She counts as having two CC weapons also, but that's irrelevant, as she would anyway.

She has diddly to allow her to reroll failed wounds.

Sounds like whoever used her on you was cheating

Nah, I just thought she had that ability. Because, you know, logic.
S3 killing machine? Give it something that allows to fulfill its job of killing.
I still think its possible to make her viable, it just needs work. And that work does not involve making her ranged attacks ignore armor.

HAH! Brought it back on topic! Like a baws.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I still think its possible to make her viable, it just needs work. And that work does not involve making her ranged attacks ignore armor.

But we don't get to write rules, so we can't make her have anything but what she has. And what she has is plasma grenades that ignore armour.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Baronyu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
She doesn't have drugs? That's...kinda lame. I thought she was like, the master gladiator?
Well, I guess I just have a bad history with dedicated combat units then. Because it never goes well for me when they are on the table.
And that's with my entire army blazing away. Seriously, this one time, Drazar some-how managed to kill 20 warriors. In 1 turn. After getting shot at. By himself. And after overwatch.
I still have no bloody idea how that happened.

She doesn't, she is supposed to be this super duper gladiator who can beat everyone and everything without taking drugs... I assume they forgot to mention that she was fighting some T1 model(Can we even get T1 in this game?) in the arena.

Doesn't she have weapons at least? I thought she gets this weapon that allows her to reroll failed wounds and reduce her opponent's attacks by 1.

She reduces opponents by one attack (shardnet) in base to base. She counts as having two CC weapons also, but that's irrelevant, as she would anyway.

She has diddly to allow her to reroll failed wounds.

Sounds like whoever used her on you was cheating

Nah, I just thought she had that ability. Because, you know, logic.
S3 killing machine? Give it something that allows to fulfill its job of killing.
I still think its possible to make her viable, it just needs work. And that work does not involve making her ranged attacks ignore armor.

HAH! Brought it back on topic! Like a baws.

She's actuallt pretty good against Eldar, Guard, Orks etc, like much of the stuff in the DE codex.

Unfortunately almost everyone insists on playing Marines

Lately it's actually been lessening down a bit at my FLGS. Xenos are on the rise, and the Marines are taking a break.

Just realised my maths earlier was wrong. The terminators were hitting on 4s when I worked it out earlier and should have been hitting on 5s, so they'll actually cause 0.648 wounds (previously it was 0.972). Still rounds up to 1 and a dead Lelith though.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Just realised my maths earlier was wrong. The terminators were hitting on 4s when I worked it out earlier and should have been hitting on 5s, so they'll actually cause 0.648 wounds (previously it was 0.972). Still rounds up to 1 and a dead Lelith though.

Did you factor in saves? She does get a 3++.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Just realised my maths earlier was wrong. The terminators were hitting on 4s when I worked it out earlier and should have been hitting on 5s, so they'll actually cause 0.648 wounds (previously it was 0.972). Still rounds up to 1 and a dead Lelith though.

Did you factor in saves? She does get a 3++.

Right we should compare her to an actual broken HQ than?

Yes she has a 3++ but is T3 so even IG PF's can cause ID. Let's not forget about shooting though. Auto cannons, Multi-lasers, krak Missiles, so much more.

He did.

Original math:

'Now the Terminators hit back. 7 attacks (she reduces the attacks of the model in base contact with her by one thanks to her Hair), 3.5 hit, 2.9166 wounds, 3+ Invulnerable save = 1 unsaved wound, which causes Instant Death.'

Accurate math has less hits, but still odds on she gets oneshotted in one round of combat.

There is no way to make her more viable until GW rewrite her in the next codex, which would be years away, before that, we'd be better to run other DE HQs.... But that's for another topic for another day.

I say the best is to use her penetrating blades for CC only, it feels a bit TFG-ish to say it applies to shooting as well because of 5th ed wording... But if you really want to run with it then it's best to ask the opponent's permission. I'd really love my argument that it's a metaphor for "how good she is with any attack she does" works, but I'm inclined to say RAI, it's CC only, [tinfoilhat]this isn't the poster boy army, we don't get game-breaking advantage[/tinfoilhat]

Just curious without the rulebook readily available, in the Shooting Phase does it say a model "attacks" with its ranged weapon ? And aren't "attacks" governed by the A on a model's profile?.. such that if you are going to use her ignore armor with a ranged weapon do you skip for example the TL Icarus Lascannon on a FoR and let her fire it a number of times on her profile ?

This smells of sophistry

Shooting attacks are attacks.

Grenades are attacks.

They are a melee weapon in CC and a ranged weapon attack at range.

Read pg 61-62 please.

'when a unit with plasma grenades makes a shooting attack..'

 Ascalam wrote:
"...Read pg 61-62 please..."

Read my first sentence please.

It appears when Ascalam edited, he took note of that and quoted the important part for ya.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
"...Read pg 61-62 please..."

Read my first sentence please.

 Ascalam wrote:
This smells of sophistry

Shooting attacks are attacks.

Grenades are attacks.

They are a melee weapon in CC and a ranged weapon attack at range.

Read pg 61-62 please.

'when a unit with plasma grenades makes a shooting attack..'