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Ye they have a 3+ armor save. Null zone only take effect when your weapon your hitting the wraiths with are ap 3 or lower.

Luide wrote:
Lots of words from luide....

I guess I didn't see the point of bringing up AP3 or armor ignoring weapons since it was pretty self explanatory what would happen. And yes, I did understand what you were saying I just did not understand the point you were trying to make (which wasn't any different than mine), however I was explaining why "always" taking the 3++ as the better save is not the correct thing to do even though an invulnerable save is better in the sense of what it can be used against (everything).

I disagree with you but irregardless if you can take either then it doesn't matter... You don't have to take the 3++ in regards to this discussion.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
One 3+ armor save is much better than having to reroll a 3++ invulnerable save. The first has a 67% chance to pass while the latter is actually less than 50 percent. Why would anyone choose the worst save? The rules explicitly state not to.

You would be correct, if the rules did not already specify the criteria for "best" as it applies to this game

You are reading way too deep into the rules. Best is best.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You are reading way too deep into the rules. Best is best.

No, really, best is defined in the rules.

Or are you going to say that you can't fortune a 2+ unit? Because a save cannot be improved past a 2+ save.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You are reading way too deep into the rules. Best is best.

By "way to deep" you really mean "the actually plainly written rules that you are advocating we ignore"

To put it all back on the table here,


If you are wounded by an AP4 or worse weapon, you will have the choice of either your 3+ invuln or 3+ armor save. You, being the savvy player, will pick to roll the 3+ armor that isn't effected by Null Zone.

If you are wounded by an AP3 or better weapon, you will take the 3+ invuln thats being effected by Null Zone because that is the best save you have. Unless you also have a 3+ or better cover save.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You are reading way too deep into the rules. Best is best.

No, really, best is defined in the rules.

Or are you going to say that you can't fortune a 2+ unit? Because a save cannot be improved past a 2+ save.

You said it - not me.

No, actually - the rules disagree with that statement.
But if you're going to disagree with the rules, at least be consistent and for I'd yourself and your opponents from modifying a 2+ save in any beneficial way.

You like to have conversations with yourself?

Any chance you can quantify how reading the rules exactly as unambiguously written is "reading too much into the rules"?

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
One 3+ armor save is much better than having to reroll a 3++ invulnerable save. The first has a 67% chance to pass while the latter is actually less than 50 percent. Why would anyone choose the worst save? The rules explicitly state not to.

Percentages of pass/fail aren't taken into account when determining a better or worse save. You have the same chance each time of rolling 3+ on a six sided die, you're just being forced to do it twice instead of once.

And trust me, I was thinking the same thing you were earlier but reminded myself that you can't factor in what it "essentially" becomes, because it does not matter about what it effectively is only what it actually is.

In the example given on page 19 it specifically states the model takes the save which gives it the best chance of surviving.

Again: the rule specifies what BEST means. You are unable ti disprove this

Just for that example - its not all inclusive and like I said it explicitly states use the one that gives the model the best chance to survive.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Just for that example - its not all inclusive and like I said it explicitly states use the one that gives the model the best chance to survive.

It is all inclusive.
According to you, you cannot make a 2+ save re-rollable.

Wait where does it say what is best? I see a place that says that "A is better than b" (the lower the Armor save, the better), but that is not an exclusive statement "A is better than B and nothing else can be better than B"

It says use what gives the model the best chance to survive... refer to the example on page 19 of the BRB.

Which is defined as using the save with the lower numerical value. In the actual rules, not just an example.

3+ and 3++ are the same. You can take the 3+ if the AP is 4 or higher not considering cover.

Yeah, which means that a 3+ and a 3++ that must reroll successful saves are also the same as far as what is best. Therefore it is the person's choice of which to use, assuming he is able to take the armor save.

Exactly. : )