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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dude, I love Eldrad but anyone suggesting he is more efficient than Jetseers is out of their mind. Jetseers per point generate more psychic powers, sure they don't have goodies but they are cheaper and for some lists and players that is important. Eldrad brings utility, but he pays a lot for that utility and some of it is unlikely to be used. I know that I rarely get him into combat and if I do, its a last resort. So while he may have a nice weapon, I am unlikely to use it. That is an inefficient use of points spent, but that is how special chars tend to work and that is why generally they are a bit less efficient than generic HQs.

Bee beep boo baap 
   
Made in au
Devastating Dark Reaper




Iranna/ half past yellow..
Cut that flamewar bs out right now..
You wanna attack the argument.. Fine.
You attack the person/ character of the person again and I don't mind reporting all your posts and leaving it to the moderators (and they WILL delete them..)
Don't bother with this childish 'last word' nonsense either please.. Just let it go and show some civility please..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And this includes the use of derogatory sarcasm please.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/13 04:28:58


2k (lotsa spiders) 3k (lotsa LR's)
Why are basic Guardians BS4 when firewarriors train from birth? Cause by the time your best warriors die of old age Eldar haven't even been laid!!
kestril wrote:
Page 1: New guard topic
Page 2: FW debate
Page 3: Ailaros and Peregrine fight. TO THE DEATH
I swear I think those two have a hate-crush on each other sometimes.  
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Alright, fact based argument only.

 Iranna wrote:


So what you're saying is, you want to pay 105 points to:
A) Make a support caster slightly better in melee, somewhere which he really doesn't wish to be in the first place.
B) Have a trait which forces you to castle up your units to make full use of it.
C) Have things which any normal seer can get access to?



No, I'm not saying that. I said I'm paying 105 points for 1 extra Psychic power, the Spirit-link special rule, the ability to redeploy D3 units, AP3 and Force to go with Fleshbane, the Stealth trait, and the T4/3++ (Without having to be stuck on a Jetbike), and the Runes of Warding, and the Runes of Witnessing. Your attempt at a summary which leaves out plenty of the benefits of these factors is disingenuous. Regarding your points.

A) AP3 and Force is not slightly better, it is significantly better, and I wish him to be there if it means (a) I win the resulting combat/push a unit of an objective and (b) I can eliminate targets like MCs not immune to ID, or act as area denial to them. Precognition is a huge force multiplier here, but with 4 rolls on Divination he has that more than not. Even without Div, the fact he is AP3 and Force at I5 is enough to offer a genuine choice to the opponent, where assaulting a Farseer or not is no choice.

B) It's 12" from him on the ground, or 12" from a Serpent Hull. That's 24" of space in which to place your Serpents. If you're playing a fast shooting/wave serpent hull based army with redeploy vulnerable to assault, refused flank is a more than valid tactic anyway.

C) A normal seer on a Jetbike, with Stone of Anath'lan, and both Runes, costs 155 points. From there, it's 50 points for a Power, the melee ability, the redeploy the 3++ Invul, no Stone drawback, and the trait. It's generally best to just take Eldrad rather than try and recreate something not even half as effective for 50 points less.


So your suggesting that one puts Eldrad in a Wave Serpent? The thing which stops all of his ML4 glory from affecting anything other than his own transport and unit inside said transport. By doing so, Eldrad will be unable to assist the rest of your army until turn 3 due to the rules regarding Blessings and Maledictions:

Turn 1 - Cast limited psychic powers -Drive

Turn 2 - Cast limited psychic powers -Get out

Turn 3 - You are now free to buff the army.

I didn't realise you liked to invest 200+pts for a character who will only be buffing a fraction of your army for half of the game.


First, You're unlikely to cast Maledictions Turn 1, and quite possibly Turn 2.
Second, should you want to, you can start outside a Waveserpent/s Turn one and cast Blessings to full effect, get in, and move with no restriction.
Third and Fourth, Four of the Divination tree powers are cast-on-psyker powers, and if you're travelling with something significant in your serpent, that's probably what you want to buff anyway.
Fifth, you can choose not to ride in the Waveserpent. This generally comes into effect against armies like Daemons and Tyranids, but it can be pulled anytime you're confident of not getting shot off the table.



1) The Eldar Warlord Traits are sub-par at best and yes, whilst Eldrad may come with the best of the bunch there's plenty in a standard competitive scene that will just simply ignore a 2+ cover, especially when you want to Turbo-boost Eldrad right in their face:

-Heldrake: Vector Strike.

-Codex Tau: Ooodles upon oodles of Ignores Cover in this book.

-Other Wave Serpents: Pretty self-explanatory.

- Necron Wraithwing: One charge equals a dead Wave Serpent.

- IG Hydras: 2+ cover is nothing when you don't get it.

- Ignores Cover Horror blob: So many S6 shots that your Serpent Shield is literally nothing to them.

The list goes on. Every army that 6th edition has churned out has an answer to Cover Saves and subsequently, Wave Serpents. This trend will only continue.



I'm not sure how to reconcile this with a Mantle Farseer, which I think is one of the worst ways to run a Farseer, but you seem to like. The Mantle Farseer forgoes any cast on psyker powers, and dies to Perfect Timing/Blast Masters/Tau, it's not very good.

-Against Helldrakes, the best answer is being able to manipulate your reserves appropriately to counter. Eldrad gives the best odds of obtaining successful reserve manipulation in the codex, so it's a win here, regardless of what else he brings to the table should you matchup with Helldrakes. However, it does work on Termicide, it does work on Obliterators, it does work on the general Melta/Plasma found in Chaos, and it does work on allied Necron Fliers.

-Codex Tau, Eldar have good answers to Pathfinders, Tetras, and with a bit of luck, Skyray thanks to Wraithknight. So markerlights tend to end up concentrated around the HQ choice, which becomes a target. They quickly lose the ability to ignore all the cover all the time, and if they are spending two 'lights to remove a save, they're not boosting BS elsewhere.

-Other Waveserpents, it's a mirror match. Having Eldrad over the seer in a mirror gives you some control over their Wraithknights and you can out-reserve them better.

-Necron Wraithwing, that's CC, and Stealth works wonders vs their Fliers.

-Hydras I've never seen. What about all the other IG firepower?

-Ignores cover Horror Blob. I don't put much stock in this as a game turning threat to a Waveserpent based army, Plus, it's good to have that ML4 and Force come into play vs Daemons.



2) And what armies will typically be running a MC-heavy list? Tyranids and Daemons spring to mind.

If facing Tyranids, the Swarmlord alone has a very high chance of rolling IA, not to mention any other lvl 3 Tervigons floating around.

If Eldrad gets into combat with a beastie from the Daemons codex you can be pretty much assured he'll lose that combat. Especially considering that it's quite easy for a Lord of Chance to get a 2++ re-rollable save. That'll beat a Fortuned 3++ anyday I'm afraid.

3) If you're suggesting that one who decides not to risk not getting a particular power they need and instead rely on the Primaris Powers - which they are guaranteed -lack the strategic/analytical brainpower of those who do then I'm afraid you know very little about this game. The more dice rolls one can avoid making, the more one can control the game. By designing a list reliant upon psychic powers you are guaranteed to get you can't be caught out when you don't get the powers you need.

Also, I don't know what Jetseers you've seen, but my Farseer will always have a 2+ re-rollable cover save regardless of whether I go first or not. Even with her base partially in area terrain, my Farseer is practically immune to anything but Ignores Cover weaponry thanks to the Mantle. She can also buff the rest of the army whilst retaining mobility without the need to sacrifice one for the other.

4) No arguments here.

5) Sure you can get use out of the Runes, but a lot of the time they're redundant (more so Witnessing rather than Warding). Most of the time, a normal Farseer will be denying on a 4+ anyway and she only has a 1/18 chance of failing a psychic test per game. That's approximately 1 every 6 turns. Those 25pts could always go somewhere else.





2) And Eldar Wraithknights, and Tau Riptides. Once you're precoged up, you can put your 3++ rerollable up against the Riptide hit on 5's 2+ save no probs, Against the LVL3's you mentioned, it's a good time to be LVL4, 5+ is a lot worse than 4+. Also, Precog Eldrad does take out non-IA Daemons. I don't see Swarmlord much over 2x Flying HT.

3) I disagree entirely, being successful with Eldar (placing in a tournament) isn't about avoiding dice rolls, it's about risk management, giving yourself the options and tools to beat the best the other codexes can throw down, and a little bit of luck. A seer aiming for 3 Primaris powers is not enough to carry an Eldar Army to a win over the best lists it can face, compared to the toolbox options the table powers can provide. The best Eldar approach is to design a list that can stand a few setbacks on the psychic powers roll phase, but most importantly can leverage the most from the potential game changers available to it when they arise. Primaris fixated players don't give enough thought to that second point in their list design.
This is also why 4 powers on one table is significantly better than 3 when it comes to list design. As in the 50% vs 66%.

5) You want to go further on RoWit with a probability distribution for number of failures. Napkin math says taking Runes of Witnessing doubles the amount of games you play without failing a Psychic test. Pantsonhead did the math awhile ago.

Farseer with RoWiT gets 15 powers off without a hitch (except maybe the occasional Perils on double 1s) in 27% of games. He whiffs one out of 15 tests in 37% of games, two in 24% of games, three in 9% of games, and four in 3% of games.

Let's suppose we use RoW on the very first failure each game (actually we would be able to decide if a power is really worth trying to save this way, but that just makes RoW even better). Now the Farseer succeeds in getting off every single power in 61% of games. He whiffs one out of the 15 tests in 25% of games, two in 10% of games, three in 3% of games, and four in <1% of games.

It can also be used to provide super-reliablity on a key power. If you cast a single power 5 times in a row, you go from 35% chance of a failure to 8%.

So 15 points for a 4 power seer is a good deal.
For Runes/Warding, Last thing you want when you're Eldar is losing control at a key moment of the game, which can certainly happen if the enemy has Misfortune, or Hallucination, or Doom type powers. Doesn't come up all the time, but since Eldrad couples best with other strong units to cast buffs on, the 2+ matters when this crops up. It's practically a free bonus since he gets plenty of value for the other stuff.


So what type of army can Eldrad bring some benefit to? Here is the last list I took to a 4 game tournament, it's got some fat and needs rejigging for sure, not a lean machine yet. May even take it in a different direction.

HQ
/Eldrad, 205 points
/Spiritseer, 70 points
Troops
/10 Guardians, 90 points
/Dedicated Waveserpent, T-L Scatter Lasers, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon, 145 points
/10 Guardians, 90 points
/Dedicated Waveserpent, T-L Scatter Lasers, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon, 145 points
Elites
/10 Fire Dragons, Exarch, Firepike, Fastshot, Iron Resolve, 260 points
/Dedicated Waveserpent, T-L Scatter Lasers, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon, 145 points
Fast Attack
/Crimson Hunter, 160 points
/Crimson Hunter, 160 points
/5 Warp Spiders, Exarch, Spinneret Rifle, Fast Shot, Marksman's eye, 140 points
Heavy Support
/WraithKnight, 2 Heavy Wraithcannons, 240 points

1850

Here is the field, I am 3rd, opponents in bold, Tau, Flying Circus Daemons, Grinder/Dog Daemons, Serpent/Suncannon Knight/Aegis Eldar. The Tau game was a draw. Out of the 5 Eldar, I played Eldrad, the rest played Jetbike Seers.

1 Necrons
2 Chaos Space Marines
3 Eldar
4 Tau
5 Daemons
6 Tau
7 Tyranids
8 Tau
9 Eldar
10 Chaos Space Marines
11 Eldar
12 Tau
13 Daemons
14 Dark Angels- Ravenwing
15 Daemons
16 Blood Angels
17 Eldar
18 Eldar
19 Tau
20 Dark Angels- Deathwing
21 Space Wolves Allied Grey Knights
22 Space Wolves Allied Tau
23 Imperial Guard
24 Dark Angels- Deathwing
25 Blood Angels Allied Tau
26 Necrons
27 Space Marines- Imperial Fists
28 Imperial Guard
29 Space Marines- Salamanders
30 Dark Angels

Divination/Fire Dragons strategy was strong, Telepathy vs Flying Circus was good too. I can say with confidence if this particular list had a Mantle/Bike Farseer instead of Eldrad, or spent 205 points elsewhere on the FOC, it would not have placed in the top 10.

It's not enough to just take the most effective guns for the least points per gun while avoiding situationals and do well with this Eldar 'dex. You do need some utility, even if sometimes some of it is 'wasted'. You need to ask more questions than "I shoot Wave Serpents and guided Warwalkers at you and you die" and you need to have the potential to answer the 'what-ifs' in the meta.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/13 06:26:16


 
   
Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

When I play Eldrad its usually in a harlestar (5 harlies + Troupe master and shadowseer, kisses all round) with Karandras and an Archon. This unit wants to be in combat, so I'd gladly pay the extra points for AP 3 and force, with it I killed an Avatar, mawloc and an un iron armed Swarmlord (Albeit they where all on 1/2 wounds anyway after Karandras got through with them...)! He is also my best chance to get Fortune, so how it goes is I roll on ROF until I get Death mission or executioner, swap that for guide and swap to divination. If get guide or doom or mind war or Eldrich Storm I keep rolling on ROF. This is a sure fire way to get me good powers, if not always fortune. But if I roll one of the bad powers early, then he has a chance tog et the good powers in Div like misfortune. I like the extra runes he has, I wouldn't normally buy them but I must admit they where very helpful that one time I failed fortune in front of a tau gunline. While RoW gave me a 2+ deny the witch (6+, 5 + for psyker, 4+ for being better psyker. 2+ for RoW) against a nasty misfortune that would of got my unit killed. So I'd say he is a hundred % worth it if you want to run a second HQ that isn't another farseer like Karandras or an Autarch.

 
   
Made in nl
Emboldened Warlock





Groningen

I am considering Eldrad now, so that wall of text did something
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan





Scotland

Strayan wrote:
Iranna/ half past yellow..
Cut that flamewar bs out right now..
You wanna attack the argument.. Fine.
You attack the person/ character of the person again and I don't mind reporting all your posts and leaving it to the moderators (and they WILL delete them..)
Don't bother with this childish 'last word' nonsense either please.. Just let it go and show some civility please..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And this includes the use of derogatory sarcasm please.


Perhaps you should go back and re-read our posts because as far as I can see, no one has "attacked" anyone. I think you'll also find that a Mod wouldn't delete our posts if they found they were in violation of one of the Tenants of the forum, rather, they would most likely issue a warning to either of us.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote: No, I'm not saying that. I said I'm paying 105 points for 1 extra Psychic power, the Spirit-link special rule, the ability to redeploy D3 units, AP3 and Force to go with Fleshbane, the Stealth trait, and the T4/3++ (Without having to be stuck on a Jetbike), and the Runes of Warding, and the Runes of Witnessing. Your attempt at a summary which leaves out plenty of the benefits of these factors is disingenuous. Regarding your points.

A) AP3 and Force is not slightly better, it is significantly better, and I wish him to be there if it means (a) I win the resulting combat/push a unit of an objective and (b) I can eliminate targets like MCs not immune to ID, or act as area denial to them. Precognition is a huge force multiplier here, but with 4 rolls on Divination he has that more than not. Even without Div, the fact he is AP3 and Force at I5 is enough to offer a genuine choice to the opponent, where assaulting a Farseer or not is no choice.

B) It's 12" from him on the ground, or 12" from a Serpent Hull. That's 24" of space in which to place your Serpents. If you're playing a fast shooting/wave serpent hull based army with redeploy vulnerable to assault, refused flank is a more than valid tactic anyway.

C) A normal seer on a Jetbike, with Stone of Anath'lan, and both Runes, costs 155 points. From there, it's 50 points for a Power, the melee ability, the redeploy the 3++ Invul, no Stone drawback, and the trait. It's generally best to just take Eldrad rather than try and recreate something not even half as effective for 50 points less.


A) AP3 will not stand up reliably to most HQ units however, who are typically rocking a 2+ save. Yes, you're able to kill up to 3 models a turn when your charge with Eldrad but that most certainly doesn't guarantee you a combat especially when charging with the likes of Aspect Warriors who are not meant for Close Combat. Typically, his entourage will be wounding on 5s as standard without bypassing any saves. The damage Eldrad can do to the likes of tactical squads still does not warrant his use as a CC HQ. Furthermore, the only MC I can see Eldrad beating without Fortune or Precognition is a Tervigon. Against Hive Tyrants, Bloodthirsters, Lords of Change etc. Eldrad has no desire to be in combat with said gribblies. Also, it is far from guarenteed that Eldrad will roll up precognition or Fortune and in order to do so with the best chance of success would force you to throw all of your 4 powers into one tree typically just to ensure he can stand up in a CC that he really doesn't want to be in.

B) That's actually not as restrictive as I first thought, so I'll concede this point.

C) My Farseer costs 160pts with the Mantle/Bike/Spear loadout. But it's precisely the fact that I'm far more resilient than Eldrad and am not limited to a Wave Serpent in the initial turns for mobility and thus, my casting abilities are not impaired that she gives me much more functionality than Eldrad.

First, You're unlikely to cast Maledictions Turn 1, and quite possibly Turn 2.
Second, should you want to, you can start outside a Waveserpent/s Turn one and cast Blessings to full effect, get in, and move with no restriction.
Third and Fourth, Four of the Divination tree powers are cast-on-psyker powers, and if you're travelling with something significant in your serpent, that's probably what you want to buff anyway.
Fifth, you can choose not to ride in the Waveserpent. This generally comes into effect against armies like Daemons and Tyranids, but it can be pulled anytime you're confident of not getting shot off the table.


I take it you've never seen how close a Ravnewing lists gets to you before even the first turn? Or went second against a Flying Circus before?

This may be true but this is reliant on you going first. If you try this tactic whilst going second every single Barrage weapon I have is going right in Eldrad himself. His 3++ may be great, but I certainly would not chance a Basilisk/Manticore etc from possibly killing my Warlord turn 1. That means that if you go second, you'll most likely have him embarked in the Serpent, still leaving you with the problem I mentioned earlier.

But then you're investing 205pts into one unit rather than using the variety of buffs and debuffs available to him to hep your army as a whole. It creates a very "eggs in one basket" situation. Sure, your 10FDs with Prescience and Perfect Timing will get out and burn something to the ground. However, one enemy shooting phase later and Eldrad will most likely be very lonely.

And in doing so, forces your army to stay within 24" and line of sight of Eldrad if they want to receive any benefits (and if you've rolled 4 x Divination like you say then the army has virtually no benefits from Eldrad if they are not joined to him outside of Misfortune), restricting units such as your guardians, Fire Dragons etc from getting out more freely (All of which can't be buffed by Eldrad in the same turn that they disembark if he's not joined to them).

I'm not sure how to reconcile this with a Mantle Farseer, which I think is one of the worst ways to run a Farseer, but you seem to like. The Mantle Farseer forgoes any cast on psyker powers, and dies to Perfect Timing/Blast Masters/Tau, it's not very good.

-Against Helldrakes, the best answer is being able to manipulate your reserves appropriately to counter. Eldrad gives the best odds of obtaining successful reserve manipulation in the codex, so it's a win here, regardless of what else he brings to the table should you matchup with Helldrakes. However, it does work on Termicide, it does work on Obliterators, it does work on the general Melta/Plasma found in Chaos, and it does work on allied Necron Fliers.

-Codex Tau, Eldar have good answers to Pathfinders, Tetras, and with a bit of luck, Skyray thanks to Wraithknight. So markerlights tend to end up concentrated around the HQ choice, which becomes a target. They quickly lose the ability to ignore all the cover all the time, and if they are spending two 'lights to remove a save, they're not boosting BS elsewhere.

-Other Waveserpents, it's a mirror match. Having Eldrad over the seer in a mirror gives you some control over their Wraithknights and you can out-reserve them better.

-Necron Wraithwing, that's CC, and Stealth works wonders vs their Fliers.

-Hydras I've never seen. What about all the other IG firepower?

-Ignores cover Horror Blob. I don't put much stock in this as a game turning threat to a Waveserpent based army, Plus, it's good to have that ML4 and Force come into play vs Daemons.


- And what is your answer to a Heldrake that you've put in reserve? Crimson Hunters are nice, but all it takes is 1 weapon with Interceptor + Skyfire (i.e, Tau) and they really have to start being super-dooper careful.

- Maybe so, however the Drone Commander MarkerlightBomb is, from what I've experienced, the Tau's primary way of getting Markerlight hits on an enemy. This unit will basically assure that one unit in your army is gone a turn thanks to the Commander's durability and threat radius.

- Is everyone playing a Wraithknight now? I really dislike those things. My list typically has nothing in reserve and is only reliant on getting Guide + Prescience off for my entire army to re-roll to hit. I'm not sure how Eldrad would help you in this situaton. Especially if he's inside a Wave Serpent.

- Yes it is, but when one has 18 Wraiths with 2 Destroyer Lords in their face turn two CC becomes a very real threat to the Wave Serpents. Of course, you could always just Turbo-Boost away, but then it's easy for the Necron player to bully you out of a particular section of the map and forces you to separate your forces. It also forces you to sacrifice a large portion of your turn 1/2 fire power.

- I would say they are becoming more and more common what with the rise of Eldar and fliers. Well typically, the other fire power will wait until they've shot you out of your tank and then blast you or go after the things in your army which aren't in a Wave Serpent.

- Why not? a ML 3 Herald of Tzeentch has a pretty good chance of getting Ignores Cover and the army will always have prescience support. 4D6 S6 shots which ignore my cover is quite nasty against a Wave Serpent since the unit will on average deal 3 glances to a Serpent. (12 hits from the Horrors = 2 and 6-7 hits from the Herald = 1).

2) And Eldar Wraithknights, and Tau Riptides. Once you're precoged up, you can put your 3++ rerollable up against the Riptide hit on 5's 2+ save no probs, Against the LVL3's you mentioned, it's a good time to be LVL4, 5+ is a lot worse than 4+. Also, Precog Eldrad does take out non-IA Daemons. I don't see Swarmlord much over 2x Flying HT.

3) I disagree entirely, being successful with Eldar (placing in a tournament) isn't about avoiding dice rolls, it's about risk management, giving yourself the options and tools to beat the best the other codexes can throw down, and a little bit of luck. A seer aiming for 3 Primaris powers is not enough to carry an Eldar Army to a win over the best lists it can face, compared to the toolbox options the table powers can provide. The best Eldar approach is to design a list that can stand a few setbacks on the psychic powers roll phase, but most importantly can leverage the most from the potential game changers available to it when they arise. Primaris fixated players don't give enough thought to that second point in their list design.
This is also why 4 powers on one table is significantly better than 3 when it comes to list design. As in the 50% vs 66%.

5) You want to go further on RoWit with a probability distribution for number of failures. Napkin math says taking Runes of Witnessing doubles the amount of games you play without failing a Psychic test. Pantsonhead did the math awhile ago.

Farseer with RoWiT gets 15 powers off without a hitch (except maybe the occasional Perils on double 1s) in 27% of games. He whiffs one out of 15 tests in 37% of games, two in 24% of games, three in 9% of games, and four in 3% of games.

Let's suppose we use RoW on the very first failure each game (actually we would be able to decide if a power is really worth trying to save this way, but that just makes RoW even better). Now the Farseer succeeds in getting off every single power in 61% of games. He whiffs one out of the 15 tests in 25% of games, two in 10% of games, three in 3% of games, and four in <1% of games.

It can also be used to provide super-reliablity on a key power. If you cast a single power 5 times in a row, you go from 35% chance of a failure to 8%.

So 15 points for a 4 power seer is a good deal.
For Runes/Warding, Last thing you want when you're Eldar is losing control at a key moment of the game, which can certainly happen if the enemy has Misfortune, or Hallucination, or Doom type powers. Doesn't come up all the time, but since Eldrad couples best with other strong units to cast buffs on, the 2+ matters when this crops up. It's practically a free bonus since he gets plenty of value for the other stuff.


"6"It's not enough to just take the most effective guns for the least points per gun while avoiding situationals and do well with this Eldar 'dex. You do need some utility, even if sometimes some of it is 'wasted'. You need to ask more questions than "I shoot Wave Serpents and guided Warwalkers at you and you die" and you need to have the potential to answer the 'what-ifs' in the meta.


2) Typically, you'll be lucky to get into CC with a Wraithknight or Riptide. They are infinitely more mobile than Eldrad and will find it relatively easy to bypass his at the very minimum turn 3 assault. Also, 2 Riptides or 1 x Wraithknight doesn't really qualify as a "MC-heavy" list.

Well, a good Tyranid player will often not cast psychic powers against you at all. They'll most likely have rolled all on Biomancy and are really just out to buff themselves. In which case, your ML4 is just as effective as my ML3 in denying them that. Again, you're really hampering yourself by going all-out for Precog and he still can't tank a 2++ re-rollable LoC. He pops up quite a bit, I've seen people have some success with Swarmy and 1 Flyrant but I generally see 2 x Flyrants as well.

3) I'm sorry but being successful with any army in a dice game such as this revolves around how many dice rolls you can take out of the equation. As long as you're rolling dice there's a chance they'll fail you, or go against you at some point. However, if you can remove that chance of failing or not getting what you were relying upon you'll be in a better position that your opponent.

I think you'll find that when people roll their first power on Fate, they want Doom or Fortune. That's what I'm looking for and if I get one, I'll try again for the other. I'd much rather have Fortune/Doom/Guide than Guide/Prescience/Random other power. Therefore, it's much more accurate to say that my double primaris is a fall-back which I can rely upon if I don't get the Doom/Fortune on the first try.

5) Of course Witnessing will be more effective on Eldrad - you're more likely to fail a test in a game. That doesn't really justify them on a ML3 seer, especially since we have the ability to just Ignore a Perils and will have very few "pivotal" powers.

I also doubt an opponent would want to chance a Malediction/Witchfire power against Eldrad's unit. Especially with the chance of a 2+ DtW. Unless you're playing against a Tzeentch Daemon list, I don't think you'll much use out of them.

6) I agree entirely, utility is key. I just prefer utility that I am guaranteed to get (Guide + Prescience) because then, it shortens the list of things which can potentially go wrong. And you believe that Eldrad is the key to answering the meta's "what ifs"? We'll have to just agree to disagree there.

I think we've reached an impasse here, you obviously have found much more utility for Eldrad in your lists than I. I prefer my LaughingSeer.

Iranna.

 
   
 
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