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I'd say cut the Helbrute. With the havocs and pred, I am surprised no one mentioned taking an ADL for them. Would add an extra gun that your havoc champ can fire, then a 4+ cover save. With the remaining points bolster your other squads.
Or just move things around and fit in a DP, Tzeentch, black mace, wings, armor, ML3. Expensive but raises hell.

 SilentScreamer wrote:
Imho you should cut out a helbrute and add in a Lord of change, replace the Herald with him (the Herald is illegal anyway) and cut down on a few horrors/rubrics and you can probably afford one. (Note: You have 7 Lascannons and 3 of which are twin-linked, add in the chance of getting doombolt and you have enough anti-tank in a list of this size to not worry about dropping a helbrute)

I actually did an updated list further down, ill update the first post when I get off work to reflect the changes. But the modded list is lower down

And I don't believe the herald is illegal, as the rulebook doesnt state you can't take one as an allied attachment HQ, it just says you have to have daemons as primary to have four in one slot

I like the list as is. Lots of bulky egyptian power armor fellers and lots of mid str firepower. This army is going to look pretty sick on the table top. If you can, find the points to give the havocs MOT.

edit: second list is beast too!

I'll get a picture of it all laid out, some of the stuff isn't painted yet and I only have 10 rubrics with the conversion, but I'll gather everything and post it. I'm trying to fit in an Aegis with an Icarus but ill try with and without

Bring the pink horrors up to 20. That's another warp charge. The herald in this squad with prescience is extreamly deadly.

I am 100% certain taking the herald is legal. I take nurgle harold w/ plaguebearers on a quadgun behind a line in every CSM list in every tournament. (not saying you should do this, just showing that you can)

Hellbrutes are bad just like C:SM dreadnoughts are bad. Drop him.

Standard CSM troops are bad. They are too expensive for what they give. Your champion is forced to challenge and loses frequently, then against most other squads has a very good chance of getting wiped. Their bad leadership with being forced to challenge makes them a liability. I've personally lost tournaments due to this and refuse to ever take them again (unless fixed in a suppliment)

Having more havocs, while isn't needed, also isn't bad. Stick the extra in front of your important guns to die first.

Trim the thousand sons to ten rubrics.
Bring that other pred back in

I updated the list to what it currently is, I might add more havocs or add an Aegis Defense Line with an Icarus




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I'm also toying with the idea of dropping the CSM squad entirely, replacing them with a vanilla chaos lord and 20 cultists to sit on an icarus and behind an aegis, as well as add more bodies to the havocs

Ah yeah, sorry about that.

I've always liked the idea of inflitrating a TKsons squad right in front of the opponent's army.

I highly recommend dumping the CSM squad. They're just so so bad for their points. They have absolutley nothing to help their leadership (VotLW isn't good enough) when your champion loses that challenge.

A Lord is pretty expensive to use for for manning the icarus, but there aren't very many other options i guess. I've never used the icarus, but statistically the quadgun is better and cheaper. For anti-flier support, the line w/ quadgun gives more bang for it's buck than anything else in any army.

Some ML havocs are pricey and produce the same number of shots with no re-rolls for more points. I do like AC havocs though.

Please please please don't forget to add 2 pink horrors. That's minimal points for an extra d6 shots from that squad. I firmly believe that every pink horror squad ever should always have 20 dudes in it.

I did end up adding the 2 extra pink horrors, but you do know anywhere between 16 and 20 makes them ML3, it doesnt have to be maxed

Oh, i dont have dex in front of me. My bad.

Have you played this list yet.?
Because I'd like to know how it goes.

I made a few last minute changes before I did the list such as dropping the CSM squad for cultists, an aegis w icarus, and a couple other things, but I ended up playing my friends Imperial Guard. I lost terribly, it was a one sided slaughter because I couldn't take care of his tanks that had 3+ cover. I dont remember the exact list he had but I'm going to make a few more changes such as fitting in a squad of termies for tank popping behind cover, adding more screamers and putting the Herald on a disc


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Maybe dropping some Thousand Sons to fit them into a rhino for protection as well

maybe drop the 15 man csm to 10 and rhino them up. This will give you mobility and therefore greater tactical flexibility. Also a small squad of horrors or cultists (maybe 1 of 5 horrors and 1 of 10 cultists) these will allow you to walk on one objective and deep strike or walk on another. Also preds suck imo. Ive never liked them for anything. Better off with a vindicator or more realistically oblits because they are the best thing ever. I primarily run Iron Warriors and 2 squads of oblits are a staple for me. Is there an advantage to having a full 20 horrors? does their magic go up? if so take another 2 otherwise lose a few. U don't need more flamers or screamers ur good there. lose a man in havocs, 5 is enough and if they die they die thats the game. If your going to run high pts units like 1ksons and demon blobs then you need to offset with some dirt ones like i mentioned before. Other than that its a decent list.

Have you considered getting a squad of 3 obliterators and putting mark of tzentch on them for flavor? I would also second that if you can make some cuts, a Lord of Change beefed up would work well with this army, especially with getting to cast from divination.

 loki old fart wrote:
Auto cannons seem harder to get as bits though.

The ForgeWorld Autocannon set is awesome. Fits onto standard plastic Chaos Marines with little effort.

Change the exhalted reward on the herald to a Grimoire and use it on your 15 thousand sons, i assume you will have prescience as well on the herald, then your 15 man thousand sons will be twin linked with a 2++ save.

Necronic Angel wrote:
Change the exhalted reward on the herald to a Grimoire and use it on your 15 thousand sons, i assume you will have prescience as well on the herald, then your 15 man thousand sons will be twin linked with a 2++ save.

Grimoire doesn't work on Thousand Sons.

 loki old fart wrote:
Have you played this list yet.?
Because I'd like to know how it goes.

I played a game with it the other day, had lots of LOS blocking cover which really saved me, used Ahriman's warlord trait to give the two squads of flamers infiltrate, which was all I needed
The mission was the scouring w hammer and anvil deployment and I ended up with more points on my side of the board forcing him to come to me
He was running imperial guard, thankfully with only two tanks which I ended up ignoring all game
The 4++ invuln won me the game actualkly, I was forced to spread my squad into a conga line between two objectives for two turns (turn 6 and 7, damn long game) and eat tons of AP3 and 2 weaponry.
Doesn't help I popped both of his vendettas with obliterators shooting/power fists
I don't have his list, but more play testing is required anyway, I'll try to write up a battle report next time I play this list
Also, modifying the main list in a little bit to what I actually used, but relatives so it has to wait an hour or two


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 BigJP wrote:
maybe drop the 15 man csm to 10 and rhino them up. This will give you mobility and therefore greater tactical flexibility. Also a small squad of horrors or cultists (maybe 1 of 5 horrors and 1 of 10 cultists) these will allow you to walk on one objective and deep strike or walk on another. Also preds suck imo. Ive never liked them for anything. Better off with a vindicator or more realistically oblits because they are the best thing ever. I primarily run Iron Warriors and 2 squads of oblits are a staple for me. Is there an advantage to having a full 20 horrors? does their magic go up? if so take another 2 otherwise lose a few. U don't need more flamers or screamers ur good there. lose a man in havocs, 5 is enough and if they die they die thats the game. If your going to run high pts units like 1ksons and demon blobs then you need to offset with some dirt ones like i mentioned before. Other than that its a decent list.

Horrors can only be in a minimum squad of 10, with more horrors increasing the mastery level of the squad ie. <10 = ML1, 11<14 = ML2, 15+ = ML3
I actually dropped the havocs and the predator for 3 one man squads of obliterators with MoN (Not fluffy, but I'll change it when I go for more fluffy standpoints, I usually end up facing alot of S8-10 weapons)
I'll post changes in a little bit to the list


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 Mycatdied wrote:
Have you considered getting a squad of 3 obliterators and putting mark of tzentch on them for flavor? I would also second that if you can make some cuts, a Lord of Change beefed up would work well with this army, especially with getting to cast from divination.

I actually changed it to 3 one man squads, but I havent updated the list quite yet


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Necronic Angel wrote:
Change the exhalted reward on the herald to a Grimoire and use it on your 15 thousand sons, i assume you will have prescience as well on the herald, then your 15 man thousand sons will be twin linked with a 2++ save.

You cannot use the Grimoire on the Thousand Sons, as they are not demons
I freaking wish though, just like how I wish my herald could join my Thousand Sons squad ;-; stupid demonic instability getting in my way


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I updated the list to it's current play
Also, I was debating putting in a LOC or Fateweaver (Just got my Fatey model in the other day ^ . ^ ) But i don't know what I would drop to play test them, I was thinking the screamers, burning chariot, and obviously the herald which should give me around 300pts