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 Jimsolo wrote:

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:


I think this is probably one of the biggest misconceptions in 40k. In WoW, raw math trumps pretty much everything else. In 40k, the game has much more to it than raw numbers. Not saying that mathematical analysis doesn't have a place, just that it isn't the be-all-end-all in this game.

I don't deny its not all about Mathhammer, but when you're doing a straight up comparison between to weapons, what else are you going to use?

It's easier to do a straight numbers comparison there, true, but you can also consider what model(s) they are available on, their points costs, what their likely targets are, and what army rules can synergize with them.

And I've taken all these things in consideration.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:I don't really know what to say to convince you. I mean, I explained the math, which is the only thing we really can go by in a comparative analysis...

Deschenus Maximus wrote:I don't deny its not all about Mathhammer, but when you're doing a straight up comparison between to weapons, what else are you going to use?

But it isn't, is it?

The Stormtalon's role fundamentally changes when you take a typhoon missile launcher over a Skyhammer. Suddenly it isn't so good against AV10 and AP4/worse monsters, but it's better against a wider range of ground targets and can make excellent use of its BS5 against them.

You're right to take them if your army needs to be covered for anti-air. I've not got that problem, and I can't think of any army so desperate for it that they would need this to do it for them.

Jimsolo wrote:
Do all three fire modes ignore cover? Or is it just Airburst? Pretty sure it was just airburst. Which means Tau Pathfinders still get their armor saves, whereas the flamer squad almost certainly wipes them out to a man. In any event, the two choices don't even compete for an FOC slot, so it isn't like you can't take them both.

Do you have pics on your custom talon? I'd love to take a look at it some time.

As a side note, another thread on here made me think of something. Are you going to do an additional part to this series where you compare the various weapons available to the Space Marines? You seem to agree with me on the role-confusion inherent in the autocannon, but that doesn't seem to be a very popular opinion these days. I'd be interested to see your take on how the various weapons stack up against one another.

Yep, it is just airburst, but given 4 templates you should hit around 12 times if you get lucky, which is 10 wounds and thus, 7 unsaved wounds - that should be enough to knock out the pathfinder squad, which usually numbers no more than 8 members.

I can do - It's my next painting post. IF you have a look at the entry for the stormtalon in this blog post, (the scores one, above) you can see what I'm talking about with the missiles.

It's a little hard to cover each weapon as an abstract tool of death. For example, a bolter is clearly worse than a heavy bolter in terms of anti-infantry damage, and yet, one does not scramble to get anti-infantry fire out of their heavy bolters - if you have them, you have them.

But, it would be an interesting venture. I could look into the best ways to get certain weapons into your army, how to do it cheaply without spamming AV11/11/10 chassis.

I might do this as a separate series, so I'm not tied to the scores I've given individual units. But it sounds like it would be a fun write-up. Thanks for the idea, Jim.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

But it isn't, is it?

The Stormtalon's role fundamentally changes when you take a typhoon missile launcher over a Skyhammer. Suddenly it isn't so good against AV10 and AP4/worse monsters, but it's better against a wider range of ground targets and can make excellent use of its BS5 against them.

You're right to take them if your army needs to be covered for anti-air. I've not got that problem, and I can't think of any army so desperate for it that they would need this to do it for them.

If you don't use your Flyers for anti-air, then what?

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

But it isn't, is it?

The Stormtalon's role fundamentally changes when you take a typhoon missile launcher over a Skyhammer. Suddenly it isn't so good against AV10 and AP4/worse monsters, but it's better against a wider range of ground targets and can make excellent use of its BS5 against them.

You're right to take them if your army needs to be covered for anti-air. I've not got that problem, and I can't think of any army so desperate for it that they would need this to do it for them.

If you don't use your Flyers for anti-air, then what?

I actually use the strafing run rule.

There's a problem in your thinking, Desch. If we all use our flyers for anti-air, then anti-air just exists to take on anti-air. It's like only taking tanks to deal with tanks, or monsters only to deal with monsters. Your units need to be able to deal with a variety of enemy units. Unfortunately, Skyhammers pigeonhole stormtalons into one anti-flyer role. Typhoon missile launchers may not be as efficient at that role, but they do a lot of other jobs better.

A TML allows the storm talon to effectively take on horde, medium infantry, light infantry and MEQ, as well as AV11/12 tanks and flyers. a skyhammer allows you to on AV10/11 flyers better, but suffers against AV12 and can't deal with horde as well because it simply lacks the output.

It's not that the skyhammer isn't a better weapon situationally, it's that the skyhammer is not a better weapon in terms of versatility. That is what I cannot abide.