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Sorry double post.

Dude, your exact words were:

I would like to challenge SHUPPETT to answer WHY Broodlords suck. I know several reasons why I might not say that they are as OP as a wave serpent or a Riptide. Otoh nothing in the Tyranid codex matches those units (maybe except a Flyrant).

So forgive me for misconstruing this as you suggesting that my argument as to why Broodlords suck, consisted of something to do with them not being on Riptide's level. In fact I still don't see how that isn't what this suggests or why you would mention it directly after challenging me to tell you why Broodlords suck (which, you did most definitely challenge me to do), but whatever, we'll just go with this being a badly delivered phrase. It's kind of ironic however, seeing as you are basically regurgitating what I already responded to you with in the other thread after you indirectly suggested that Genestealers aren't that good because they are on par with a bunch of non-competitive units. Remember that? I do:

So why the hell you felt the need to recite pretty much exactly what I already said, back to me, as if it's something that supports your opinion and not mine, is interesting, but whatever, we can write it off as unrelated nonsense if you'd prefer.



But for the Genestealer thing, as you even admitted, you without a doubt incorrectly found the conclusion that I thought they were bad and decided to use this as your argument in your post. As such, you got a response telling you to be more comprehensive and thorough in your reading before putting words in my mouth. Because that is exactly what you did. You don't like being told that, don't do it. How in the hell you managed to think that I was saying Genestealers are bad is anyone's guess, when in nearly every post I mentioned that taking the Broodlord is bad because spending those points on actual Genestealers is much better, and the fact that you are also in the other thread contributing to the discussion where I posted the 4 paragraph essay on how to make Genestealers work, but we will just mark this up again to you not reading properly.

You made a statement "Broodlords suck". I have never have thought that, and so defended them, but conceded that they cost too many points..

Uhhhh where in the hell did you concede that? Last time you mentioned their costing you said "For a relatively small investment, 134 points, to gain all of this flexibility is, IMO, extremely valuable.[...]Again, just my opinion, and yes, 64 points is a large investment, for a single model but MAKE it worth it." I don't know about you, but that reads to me like you are still pretty much defending the Broodlord as a solid investment, not "conceding that it's overcosted" at all.

You challenged me to explain why the Broodlord sucks, I did exactly that. You have beat around the bush, not bothered responding to half the logic presented your way, barely even read the counter-argument, and used a Strawman to defend your ideals. There is no need to get so emotional about someone asking you to formulate a proper response (to the discussion you initiated) without putting words in my mouth, and arguing against them. It's impolite and hurts your own point of view more than it helps. And getting all defensive because someone calls you out on such dickish behavior also isn't the most mature way to contribute to a discussion you opened, but I'll leave it at that.

 SHUPPET wrote:

The Horror is literally the least reliable spell in the codex. When it's relevant it will go through as often as a Warp Lance. The fact that you need to cast dominion first and for your target to be a Psyker for it to be of any real use is just the icing on top.

I get more pinned results out of The Horror when I roll it on Tyrants/Zoanthropes/Tervigons than I do from my Living Artillery Formation. The -2 to Leadership is a great modifier. Opponents are often reluctant to deny it when you have Warp Blast or Catalyst coming up, so it often gets through. I do treat it as a bonus though rather than something to be relied on (I roll my psychic phase with one-dice-per-power spam and try to cast every power I possibly can).

 SHUPPET wrote:

With the changes to the Psychic phase, not only DtW on Dominion making it easy to Deny an entire unit of Stealers for another turn having them open themselves up to another round of fire, but also happens after the move phase meaning you miss out on a critical 6". A squad of Shrikes for 100 pts matches the amount of attacks put out by a Broolord and 2 stealers for the same price, provides a far more reliable Synapse + SitW bubble that ALSO allows you to move out of afterwards if you need to GTG in the subsequent turn, is much more durable than BL + 2 Stealers, and even comes with a pinning weapon of its own. One that doesn't eat three WC, cause perils or get denied I might add. Oh and have guns, 12" movespeed and a bunch of useful upgrades

Just out of interest, how is Dominion easily Denied? They need to roll 6s for each WC you score on it, and if they are happy to invest 6 dice to do it reliably then great? That's the rest of your psychic phase free to run unmolested.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Broodlords suck. It's not an opinion lol. Taking him is just one of the more foolish ways to spend points.

That really is an opinion.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Also, correct me if I'm wrong here but I thought toxin sacs no longer give re-rolls (more a nerf to Stealers in general but it does make the upgrade especially worse on Broodlord)

Poison still gives you re-rolls if your S > their T. So S5 re-rolls vs T4, S4 re-rolls vs T3.

 SHUPPET wrote:
@pinecone: There is very little truth in both the statement you made and the one you quoted. Every hundred points of Stealers out damage 100 pts of Daemonettes by 150% even just against standard GEQ. Against TEQ it's more like 250%.

There is a lot of misconceptions and uneducated opinions about Stealers. They aren't what you'd call OP, but they are our best dedicated assault infantry unit and one of the better ones in the game. Hormagants however are absolute trash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@roxor: Broodlords suck because they are the price of 4 more Genestealers with points to spare. They do nothing but water down your survivability which is already Stealers' Achilles, and damage output. I don't know why people still take him tbh lol, feel free to share what is so great about him

Genestealers are never going to make it into melee to DO that damage. Yes, they CAN do more damage than Daemonettes but not THAT much more and Daemonettes are so much more survivable than Genestealers. Daemonettes work well in their army and can reliably make it into combat. Genestealers are too slow and too fragile, they will never make it into combat and aren't cheap enough to be chaff.

Hormagants AND Genestealers are trash, but I can put a whole hell of a lot of hormagants down to screen and distract. I can not do that with Genestealers.

I would invest a lot of dice to stop a Dominion if it meant keeping 1 or 2 units of Genestealers out of assault, for yet another turn. The rest of our powers aren't really doing anything as big as that to be honest.

That being said, easily denied was more a reference to the fact that it can happen, and will happen often enough, as opposed to just moving something with Synapse into range of the unit.

The Horror might be more slightly more reliable than WL, that's not saying much. It's definitely less reliable than a Strangler though. Although, that is an opinion. Saying Broodlord sucks I don't feel it's really an opinion, every fact I can see to do with it says taking more Genestealers, taking Shrikes, or even taking a Lictor is a better choice. Halfway shooting phase Synapse is just not all that useful. Your unit goes down a wound and is still majority 4. You lose out on durability and damage vs everything except GEQ, aka the infantry class you have the least trouble with.

Until there is actually a decent reason to take a Broodlord, that isn't ridiculously niche and easily argued that it's done better by something else, I would say Broodlord sucking is no more an "opinion" than it saying a Haruspex is worse than a Carnifex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
@pinecone: There is very little truth in both the statement you made and the one you quoted. Every hundred points of Stealers out damage 100 pts of Daemonettes by 150% even just against standard GEQ. Against TEQ it's more like 250%.

There is a lot of misconceptions and uneducated opinions about Stealers. They aren't what you'd call OP, but they are our best dedicated assault infantry unit and one of the better ones in the game. Hormagants however are absolute trash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@roxor: Broodlords suck because they are the price of 4 more Genestealers with points to spare. They do nothing but water down your survivability which is already Stealers' Achilles, and damage output. I don't know why people still take him tbh lol, feel free to share what is so great about him

Genestealers are never going to make it into melee to DO that damage. Yes, they CAN do more damage than Daemonettes but not THAT much more and Daemonettes are so much more survivable than Genestealers. Daemonettes work well in their army and can reliably make it into combat. Genestealers are too slow and too fragile, they will never make it into combat and aren't cheap enough to be chaff.

Hormagants AND Genestealers are trash, but I can put a whole hell of a lot of hormagants down to screen and distract. I can not do that with Genestealers.

The question stands as to why you would do it with Hormagants and not just Termagants. Terms have more bodies for the same amount of points, 25 Terms cost the same as 20 gants and charge with 50 attacks as opposed to 60, with of course 25 shots first to make up for it, as such soften a unit up more and have more durability making the tarpit/screen last longer and do it's job better. Hormagants are as useless as the broodlord, Stealers at least have their own role, the other two are just ways to different ways to spend points to do a job worse.

Daemonettes really aren't that much more survivable than Stealers, only just. Not even close to the 180% damage return you are getting from Stealers on average (even the 125% return you get against GEQ i think even makes it worth it or at least on par). I think Stealers will still hit harder after the bolters fly and both units are in combat.

That's an opinion though.

So maybe the answer is to get back to ground zero. After so much “My dick is bigger than your dick” discussion, I’ve lost track of which we’re even talking about; Genestealers or Broodlord? I can happily admit fault where I am wrong in my comprehension. So to clear anything up:

SHUPPET wrote:

Roxor08 wrote:You made a statement "Broodlords suck". I have never have thought that, and so defended them, but conceded that they cost too many points..

SHUPPET wrote:
Uhhhh where in the hell did you concede that? Last time you mentioned their costing you said "For a relatively small investment, 134 points, to gain all of this flexibility is, IMO, extremely valuable.[...]Again, just my opinion, and yes, 64 points is a large investment, for a single model but MAKE it worth it." I don't know about you, but that reads to me like you are still pretty much defending the Broodlord as a solid investment, not "conceding that it's overcosted" at all.

roxor08 wrote:Yeah, they are definitely over costed, but we can only work with what we're given. Pretty much every troop choice in our codec is bad. I simply feel that Genestealers + Broodlord are our most flexible option.

I was referring to both the unit and the Broodlord here….

SHUPPET wrote:Dude, your exact words were:

Roxor08 wrote:I would like to challenge SHUPPETT to answer WHY Broodlords suck. I know several reasons why I might not say that they are as OP as a wave serpent or a Riptide. Otoh nothing in the Tyranid codex matches those units (maybe except a Flyrant).

Yes you’re right; this was a challenge to show why Broodlords suck. I don’t feel that you’ve done that. You’ve been blithering on about “he said” “you said” comments as if to prove your innocence in court. Maybe challenge was a bad word and I should have asked you to prove to me why there bad, but if you took “challenge” as: “Don’t back down to any point that he can possibly make, or admit that my opinion might not be shared by others” then maybe again, moderation is a word you should consider more.

SHUPPET wrote:
With the changes to the Psychic phase, not only DtW on Dominion making it easy to Deny an entire unit of Stealers for another turn having them open themselves up to another round of fire, but also happens after the move phase meaning you miss out on a critical 6". A squad of Shrikes for 100 pts matches the amount of attacks put out by a Broolord and 2 stealers for the same price, provides a far more reliable Synapse + SitW bubble that ALSO allows you to move out of afterwards if you need to GTG in the subsequent turn, is much more durable than BL + 2 Stealers, and even comes with a pinning weapon of its own. One that doesn't eat three WC, cause perils or get denied I might add. Oh and have guns, 12" movespeed and a bunch of useful upgrades

This is the part that caused me to point out that Shrikes can’t go to ground. Reading it again, you can see why right? As I’m reading it over again, it took me several reads to infer that you were advocating using Shrikes to bring the Genestealer unit back on their feet. The construction of the sentence was referring to the “Shrikes” as the subject with a comparison to “a Broolord and 2 stealers”. In my defense, even now, considering the structure of the sentence it can still be misread to say that the Shrikes are the one’s going to ground. Finally, if you wanted to argue that Genestealers + Broodlord will suffer the same consequences as the Shrikes I have to preemptively disagree. I'd rather lose a 14 point Genestealer model over a 45(?) point Shrike model any day. At minimum size you Broodlord (and unit) will be able to withstand 8 S8 shots (with no cover save) before the unit is wiped out. IMO for an opponent to divert 8 S8 weaponry is much more detrimental to his/her offensive output than 3 S8 shots. To clarify further, I understand that chances are better that your Genestealer unit will be whittled down with less powerful weaponry first THEN S8 weaponry will focus on the Broodlord. This is just forcing the opponent to succumb to what we want as Tyranid players.

SHUPPET wrote:
No I was saying how much better 3 Shrikes with a Cannon is at getting up a unit of Stealers from GtG instead of Synapse. It does it far more reliably, brings a more reliable pinning weapon (only just), tanks better, is more mobile, and matches the amount of CC attacks that a Broodlord + 2 Genestealers do for just about the same price. Am I saying that Shrikes are completely better than Genestealers anywhere there? They are only better in CC because you took a Broodlord (thus watering down your strength), if you had just taken 6 Genestealers instead of a Broodlord the stats would be back that way. The Shrikes do Broodlords role far better than it, the fact that they get ID'd by S8 is a bit of a moot point here, as you are taking 3 Shrikes instead of a BL and 2 stealers. The same S8 shots are acing the 2 stealers in 1 volley as well. The Brood CAN be tucked into a squad... but the trade off for not being able to shoot him is that A. His Synapse is unreliable + can cause perils + can be denied, and B. it happens AFTER the movement phase so it doesn't even do it's job properly. You are much better off with Shrikes, who CAN be killed but can also be hidden easy, can sit just below 24" behind the Stealers, avoiding all but the longest range S8 if the need be, and actually get the Stealers up off the ground reliably and properly, as well as still pinning properly with 36" range, and flapping up the board to get into combat and support afterwards. And that's if they have enough S8 to stop the Shrikes being hyper-aggressive which they also can do. The whole "well what else is the S8 being used for" doesn't work here. We are playing Tyranids, every wound taken off a Warrior is one that could have been spent taking a wound off, for example, a TL pinning BS4 Exocrine.

So if I understand, you’re advocating using Shrikes INSTEAD OF the Broodlord for the purpose of getting them back up from the ground. The flaw I see here (if we are still talking about taking Genestealers) is that a smart opponent will be able to easily see that it’ll only take 9 S8 wounds to remove the entire Shrike unit with a cover save. That’s if they even get a cover save. For any army with the ability to remove that cover save, 3 S8 shots completely destroys your only hope of getting your Genestealers back into the fight. Most armies will be able to afford diverting 3 S8 shots from your other bigguns….

roxor08 wrote:
Your point about "watering down" the army is strange because you need to bring troops. Do you want to brig 40 point, 10 man termagant unit. It'll do literally nothing for you except die. At least a Genestealer unit with a Broodlord with be on the threat list.

SHUPPET wrote:
I haven't said either of these things and the fact that your logic is so bad that you need to rely on putting words in my mouth is maybe an indicator that you need to reconsider your overall standpoint on the matter. You said you cant understand my logic, but it's pretty simple logic, it seems as though you are choosing not to: everything a Broodlord does for your army is done better by something else once you factor in the cost of the model. I swear so many people don't understand how points work. That Broodlord could have been 4 stealers.

I'm not saying taking troops is watering down your army. Genestealers are fine, never did I once say they weren't. BL makes them weaker. And any non-combat bonuses he offers are done VASTLY better by Shrikes with a larger damage output level and arguably better durability (at worst it's very comparable, to the same amount of points in the Broodlord and 2 Stealers you could take instead of them).

Again, here’s a situation where we got confused with the continual reference back and forth from the Genestealers and Broodlord. Again, I am partly at fault here. (<--You see that? I’m admitting fault) I simply don’t see how adding a Broodlord “waters down” the army. I can see if you’re strictly looking at offensive power that it could possibly water down the army….But I feel that not only does it [the Broodlord] strengthen your army in ways that can’t be quantified, (psychological effect on the opponent, creating a 12” bubble of board control, pinning probability, synergy with other units) but in survivability too. I’ve pointed out why a Broodlord is more survivable than 4 genestealers.

SHUPPET wrote:
You challenged me to explain why the Broodlord sucks, I did exactly that. You have beat around the bush, not bothered responding to half the logic presented your way, barely even read the counter-argument, and used a Strawman to defend your ideals. There is no need to get so emotional about someone asking you to formulate a proper response (to the discussion you initiated) without putting words in my mouth, and arguing against them. It's impolite and hurts your own point of view more than it helps. And getting all defensive because someone calls you out on such dickish behavior also isn't the most mature way to contribute to a discussion you opened, but I'll leave it at that.

No, there is no need to get emotional about it and I didn’t. Continual snarky comments and the smut that you seem to think is okay to say on the internet will/should get you punched in the face if you were to make them in person. Just because you can hide behind the anonymity of the internet doesn’t make it right to be rude. As a matter of fact, since I have no idea what a “Strawman” is, I had to look it up to make sure I understood you. I never intended to do anything of the sort: “ It's a way of misrepresenting your opponent's position. - See more at: http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/what-is-a-straw-man-argument#sthash.YkDA6p1R.dpuf” If anything, the continual confusion of the subject matter references can be brought to blame in this situation….


To get back to the discussion at hand: Regarding the Broodlord, your opinion is that ANY reason to take a Broodlord should be OVERRIDDEN by another unit in the codex that would otherwise fill that role. Further, while Hormagaunts (and Termagants I think?) as are our troops options, they are outclassed by a unit of Genestealers of the same cost.
I believe that the extremity of this (inferred) opinion is wrong in regards to the Broodlord. I’ve explained why and we can agree to disagree. You don’t have to use the Broodlord. No one’s forcing you.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I would invest a lot of dice to stop a Dominion if it meant keeping 1 or 2 units of Genestealers out of assault, for yet another turn. The rest of our powers aren't really doing anything as big as that to be honest.

That being said, easily denied was more a reference to the fact that it can happen, and will happen often enough, as opposed to just moving something with Synapse into range of the unit.

The Horror might be more slightly more reliable than WL, that's not saying much. It's definitely less reliable than a Strangler though. Although, that is an opinion. Saying Broodlord sucks I don't feel it's really an opinion, every fact I can see to do with it says taking more Genestealers, taking Shrikes, or even taking a Lictor is a better choice. Halfway shooting phase Synapse is just not all that useful. Your unit goes down a wound and is still majority 4. You lose out on durability and damage vs everything except GEQ, aka the infantry class you have the least trouble with.

Until there is actually a decent reason to take a Broodlord, that isn't ridiculously niche and easily argued that it's done better by something else, I would say Broodlord sucking is no more an "opinion" than it saying a Haruspex is worse than a Carnifex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
@pinecone: There is very little truth in both the statement you made and the one you quoted. Every hundred points of Stealers out damage 100 pts of Daemonettes by 150% even just against standard GEQ. Against TEQ it's more like 250%.

There is a lot of misconceptions and uneducated opinions about Stealers. They aren't what you'd call OP, but they are our best dedicated assault infantry unit and one of the better ones in the game. Hormagants however are absolute trash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@roxor: Broodlords suck because they are the price of 4 more Genestealers with points to spare. They do nothing but water down your survivability which is already Stealers' Achilles, and damage output. I don't know why people still take him tbh lol, feel free to share what is so great about him

Genestealers are never going to make it into melee to DO that damage. Yes, they CAN do more damage than Daemonettes but not THAT much more and Daemonettes are so much more survivable than Genestealers. Daemonettes work well in their army and can reliably make it into combat. Genestealers are too slow and too fragile, they will never make it into combat and aren't cheap enough to be chaff.

Hormagants AND Genestealers are trash, but I can put a whole hell of a lot of hormagants down to screen and distract. I can not do that with Genestealers.

The question stands as to why you would do it with Hormagants and not just Termagants. Terms have more bodies for the same amount of points, 25 Terms cost the same as 20 gants and charge with 50 attacks as opposed to 60, with of course 25 shots first to make up for it, as such soften a unit up more and have more durability making the tarpit/screen last longer and do it's job better. Hormagants are as useless as the broodlord, Stealers at least have their own role, the other two are just ways to different ways to spend points to do a job worse.

Daemonettes really aren't that much more survivable than Stealers, only just. Not even close to the 180% damage return you are getting from Stealers on average (even the 125% return you get against GEQ i think even makes it worth it or at least on par). I think Stealers will still hit harder after the bolters fly and both units are in combat.

That's an opinion though.

I agree with you completely that Termagans are just better than Hormagaunts in everyway except one, they are slower. I like to run one swarm of 20 naked hormagaunts just to put pressure on my opponent and draw fire away. I mostly do it because I am stubborn and refuse to not use hormagaunts because I love the model, I acknowledge that their is no numerical reason to use them over termagants.

As for Genestearlers vs Daemonettes, you have to look at the armies that they are in and what else is going on around them. Genestealers do so much more damage than any other small tyranid creature and as such will draw ALL small arms fire onto them to kill them quickly. Daemonettes can be a small part of a large damaging force that your opponent has to make the decision on whether to fire on them, or the plague bearers, or the screamers, or what ever else the daemons can throw at you. Also daemons can buff the hell out of the Daemonettes and I can tell you that my Daemonettes backed up by the Grimoire do nasty things in any game.