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 Phiasco II wrote:
You beat me to this. I was literally about to write up the same thing and post it here on dakka to get a general feel for it. Thanks for taking the time to put it together

As far as I can see everything seems to be reasonable. As always you'd want to run this past your opponent before setting up the game, but if you're playing with friends then they should be okay with it. If not just run a vanilla or DA doubel demi with an allied BA CAD.


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Also, maybe should death company be auxiliary formation? Maybe something like:

Death Company 1-3
Death Company Dreadnought 0-1

I made a Death Company Auxilliary Formation.


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I made some alterations to the rules. I adjusted the Baal Predator's rules. I gave the Scout back and added a rule for a squadron that gives their template weapons the Torrent special rule and their Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters the Ignores Cover special rule. I wanted them to be different from the regular Predator. IC might be a little much on the AsC Baal though. Thoughts?

I did add a special rule like what C:SM have for bikes but gave it to Assault Squads. Now if you give an IC a Jump Pack, or run Commander Dante, you can use Assault Squads as Troops.

I made a few adjustments to the rules I had made up. I gave Death Company Dreadnoughts the Rampage USR, but took away their ability to form squadrons. I took away Hit and Run from the 8th Company formation, but gave them the ability to use their jump packs in both the Assault and Movement phases. I also fixed an oversight that gave the Sanguinary Priest formation the ability to give up to +5 to Weapon Skill, but did give it the ability to give Death Company +1 to their FNP rolls. The Angelic Host detachment lost the Red Thirst (it became just a general upgrade to the army as a whole), but they gained an ability that upgrades wargear. Now that nipple armor actually means something.

The only thing I think you missed is making the Techmarine 65 points to match C:SMs variant, and give him the power axe as a requirement.

And I imagine they took off scout in Baal predators for a reason, so...

It's a pity for BA that they were literally the last codex to get the 'balanced' treatment before Necrons came out.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The only thing I think you missed is making the Techmarine 65 points to match C:SMs variant, and give him the power axe as a requirement.

And I imagine they took off scout in Baal predators for a reason, so...

It's a pity for BA that they were literally the last codex to get the 'balanced' treatment before Necrons came out.

Fixed the Techmarine. Thanks for pointing that out.

In the era of Invincible Wraiths, unhittable Ravenwing, and frickin' Scatterbikes, the Baal Pred NEEDS Scout.

EDIT: I want to make something similar to the Hammer of Caliban formation, except have it be Blood Angels themed. It would take the place of the Armoured Task Force. Would probably be called the Fist of Baal and require 1 Techmarine and 3-5 units of Baal Predators, Predators, Whirlwinds, or Vindicators.

Another formation I want to make is basically Angel's Fury without the Tactical Squads, three Stormravens that come in from reserves on the first turn and can reroll reserves that must have Locator Beacons. Any Jump Infantry that arrives from Deep Strike within 12" of two Stormravens may charge the same turn they arrive from Deep Strike. It would be more restricted than Angel's Fury since it wouldn't allow you to use Drop Pods to get stuff to come in turn 1 since it is Jump Infantry only.

Shred might be a nice squadron bonus for the Baal Pred.

Add 10/15pts to the cost of a Flamestorm Cannon and make it Torrent all of the time (rather than just as a squadron bonus), for Ball Preds and LR Redeemers.

Pretty cool stuff although I do sorta agree with those that said to roll BA/FT chapter tactics in C:SM instead.. only WITH the changes you've done to BA specific units.
Or in other words don't rewrite all the formations that C:SM get, just exchange certain units like say DC for honor guard when a player chooses a BA chapter tactic for their force. Isn't that doable?

Either way if your going to this extent why not make the baal pred closer to a relic sicaran? And for all thats holy give gabriel seth artie and a JP option or move him to HQ status or something.

Relic Sicaran is still a thing, so I don't want to step on its toes too much. I think I am going to give ol' Gabe Artificer armor baseline. I can't really decide what to do with him otherwise. Moving him to HQ is probably one of those things though.

I am gradually coming up with new formations and removing C:SM placeholders. 1st Company Task Force will be replaced next, then Armoured Task Force. Archangels Orbital Intervention Force fills the same role as the 1st Company Task Force anyway. Plus, this way people can use existing stuff if they want. Armoured Task Force will be replaced by the Fist of Baal, which will combine elements of the Armoured Task Force and the Hammer of Caliban.

Did I miss what their version of the Gladius strike force does?

And feth the idiots talking stupid. This is a fine fan work and don't listen to the self important messageboard tough guys.

I think the squadron bonus for the ba'als is probably too good. Having 3 in the squad should give something smaller than that but its up to you.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Did I miss what their version of the Gladius strike force does?

And feth the idiots talking stupid. This is a fine fan work and don't listen to the self important messageboard tough guys.

I think the squadron bonus for the ba'als is probably too good. Having 3 in the squad should give something smaller than that but its up to you.

The Strike Force gives the Red Thirst, which synergies well with their Furious Charge ability. It also gives the Company Support ability of the Gladius.

Baal Preds are already overpriced, even with Scout back in because they compete for HS slots. The squad bonuses make up for that.

The overhead of three tac squads justifies a lot of the bonuses.

Martel732 wrote:
The overhead of three tac squads justifies a lot of the bonuses.

Would a rule that states any unit arriving from Deep Strike or disembarking a transport may charge instead of shoot that turn be a good rule?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The overhead of three tac squads justifies a lot of the bonuses.

Would a rule that states any unit arriving from Deep Strike or disembarking a transport may charge instead of shoot that turn be a good rule?

For sure, but maybe too good if you poll the crowd. However, skyhammer already has that rule. Honestly, I think people are just getting used to BA being awful at this point and would hesitate to change it.

I like these changes a lot. For the most part I like the codex:Space Marines this edition and I agree Blood Angels should be closer to it. The one thing I can't stand about the new codex is the overall nerf IH and continued removal of their uniqueness to make them just another wannabe Ultramarines (not to mention less fluff for IH this edition as well). But, back on topic. I think the terminator rules are fun since right now terminators of all flavors are pretty crap.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The overhead of three tac squads justifies a lot of the bonuses.

Would a rule that states any unit arriving from Deep Strike or disembarking a transport may charge instead of shoot that turn be a good rule?

For sure, but maybe too good if you poll the crowd. However, skyhammer already has that rule. Honestly, I think people are just getting used to BA being awful at this point and would hesitate to change it.

An assault army that can't assault is worthless. It makes Furious Charge a stupid ability. I think I am going to go ahead and give it to them. They are trading the ability to shoot for the ability to charge, so it isn't like they are getting it for free. Hell, I would be fine if they got it without having to trade something away.

C:SM get Cents, LSS, and a bunch of other stuff. Storywise, BA don't get them because the Mechanicum is pissed about the Baal Predator and the Lucifer-pattern Engines. So BA make due with what they've got and make the rest up by charging into the enemy.

"An assault army that can't assault is worthless."

Welcome to the current BA.

Martel732 wrote:
"An assault army that can't assault is worthless."

Welcome to the current BA.

Yup. Hence why I want to fix that. Blood Angels should be one of the best Assault armies in the game. Their Gene Seed makes them Murder on Two Legs. Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to giving them the ability to do stuff like count a Bolter as a CCW.

People have asked me a LOT what needs fixed with BA. The simple answer is access to another stupid death star. It's just gonna be really hard to make a list like BA work against Tau/Eldar/Necron/Vanilla dex. Shooting is in, assault is out. BA don't have great body count, nor great resiliency, nor reliable shooting. Nothing seems right to me.

Your formation helps, and updating the stats of course, but lack of grav cents and such are just killer. DC are not ever going to be as good as TWC and remain remotely faithful to their original stats.

All the other unique stuff BA has is just bad. Fast vehicles are bad because vehicles are bad. SG are bad because 2+ saves are bad. BA special characters are bad because they aren't MCs or GMCs. DC dreads are bad because they are vehicles. Sanguinary priests are okay, but consume an HQ slot and only give FNP to a single unit. And even that's not enough to surive 7th ed shooting.

It's not just BA. Orks can't Ork. Tyranids can't Tyranid. Khorne can't Khorne. They all get shot to death trivially in the 7th ed paradigm. People can cry "terrain!" all they like, but the 5++ cover saves aren't saving your units from the scatterbikes. And for BA, terrain is worse than useless as it can kill our jump troops.

Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of what makes Blood Angels unique also makes them utter garbage in this edition. They really need a way to get into Assault range, and there isn't a lot out there to do that. Some kind of speed bonus could be beneficial here. More readily available access to FNP, and maybe stronger FNP in certain situations would also help. But really, we need the ability to Assault out of Deep Strike; that's simply the most reliable way to get into Assault these days, and it's a joke that vanilla Marines can get that ability, but we can't.

Oh, you're not going to get any disagreement from me there. Being able to Assault out of Deep Strike is a must for BA, otherwise they can't get anywhere near their targets before being blown up. And unfortunately, you are right, terrain is more of a hindrance than a help for us, since landing your squads on or near it is a good way to wipe out a bunch of points. Descent of Angels mitigates that a little, but it isn't a guarantee unless you use Dante.

Maybe 8th Ed will swing back toward Assault and Vehicles being good. We will know next spring when GW releases it...


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 BrokenRecord wrote:
Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of what makes Blood Angels unique also makes them utter garbage in this edition. They really need a way to get into Assault range, and there isn't a lot out there to do that. Some kind of speed bonus could be beneficial here. More readily available access to FNP, and maybe stronger FNP in certain situations would also help. But really, we need the ability to Assault out of Deep Strike; that's simply the most reliable way to get into Assault these days, and it's a joke that vanilla Marines can get that ability, but we can't.

I am mulling the idea of giving Sanguinary Priests the ability to boost FNP if a unit already has it (such as Death Company). A speed bonus is not really what I am going for, I think charging out of Deep Strike or Disembarking will do that well enough. It basically turns everything the BA have into an Assault Transport with the kicker that they can Assault when coming from Reserves as well.

Neat little side effect: If they perform Emergency Disembarkation, they still can Assault. The look on the enemy's faces when they blow a Rhino up, only for ten Red Power Armored bodies to come charging out of the wreckage. Priceless!

Maybe make it so that they can charge out of Deep Strike regularly, but when they charge out of a non-Assault transport, it's a disordered charge. Then, have the Red Thirst as the Demi-Co level bonus, and at the full Battle Co. level, have it stick around even for disordered charges; kind of like how Dark Angels have scaling levels of Overwatch.

 BrokenRecord wrote:
Maybe make it so that they can charge out of Deep Strike regularly, but when they charge out of a non-Assault transport, it's a disordered charge. Then, have the Red Thirst as the Demi-Co level bonus, and at the full Battle Co. level, have it stick around even for disordered charges; kind of like how Dark Angels have scaling levels of Overwatch.

They are already trading their ability to shoot for their ability to Charge. If I was to keep their ability to shoot, I would make them do disordered charges. It makes sense that a force that prides itself on its ability to rush into combat would be able to figure out how to do so effectively, no matter what they were deploying from.

I changed the name of the Battle Demi-Company to the Seraphim Battle Demi-Company in keeping with the alternate BDC from the Raven Guard (Pinion BDC). Also decided to give Captains and Chaplains the ability to take a Blood Chalice. This was because the Blood Angels Upgrade Kit comes with a Chalice, but you really have no use for it. So now some of the HAs can take it. Also makes a Chaplain and Death Company get their WS5 back without having to use a Sanguinary Priest and waste that FNP.

So, sorry, going back. SM demi-company gives Tactical doctrine and the BA get Red Thrist? Not terrible I suppose.

Without breaking too many rules, you could have a formation of vanguards and/or Assault marines gain Scout. That might give them the speed to get there. As much as I miss assaulting out of transports, I would shy away from it. Even with that stupidly powerful skyhammer formation.

Death company Dreads, could they cause Fear? Or gain the ability to gain more attacks off of their claws like they used to.

If the Ba'als are overpriced, just drop them down in points then. Then make the squadron bonus roughly okay.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
So, sorry, going back. SM demi-company gives Tactical doctrine and the BA get Red Thrist? Not terrible I suppose.

Well, their "Chapter Tactic" is Furious Charge. The Seraphim Battle Demi-Company bonus is the Red Thirst. It should improve in some fashion when you run the complete Angelic Host Strike Force, but the only way I can think of what to do with that is to make it affect Unwieldy weapons as well (so they attack at I2 instead of I1). That would be on par with Full BS Overwatch of Lion's Blade and T/A/D Doctrines for Gladius.

Without breaking too many rules, you could have a formation of vanguards and/or Assault marines gain Scout. That might give them the speed to get there. As much as I miss assaulting out of transports, I would shy away from it. Even with that stupidly powerful skyhammer formation.

Scout would get them moving up the board pretty fast, but so would giving them the ability to fire their jump packs in Movement and Assault, but that steps on the toes of the Raven Guard (and Skyhammmer...). I think giving BA a 1d6 Charge move when arriving out of Deep Strike or disembarking might be better than giving them a full charge move. But really, the ability to Assault out of Deep Strike isn't that uncommon anymore. There is already another new formation that grants it besides the Skyhammer, except it is a lot cheaper points-wise compared to the Skyhammer.

Death company Dreads, could they cause Fear? Or gain the ability to gain more attacks off of their claws like they used to.

Naw, I am okay giving them Rampage.

If the Ba'als are overpriced, just drop them down in points then. Then make the squadron bonus roughly okay.

The only points adjusting I am doing is bringing stuff in line with the C:SM. If something doesn't have a C:SM entry, I am leaving its points alone. The Baal needs something special. I may come up with something different for the Assault Cannon, but Torrent is not really that powerful for the Flamestorm.

Okay, fair enough

 Kriswall wrote:
I think you're going about this the wrong way. If your plan is to pretty much completely change Codex:BA and make them align more closely, why not do the following...

1. Roll every Blood Angels only unit in the core Codex and give them the Chapter Tactics (Blood Angels) special rule. Stick all the BA army specific rules into the Chapter Tactics.
2. Copy over the Relics and Warlord Traits, but restrict them to Blood Angels only.
3. Ummm... done?

BA Warlord traits suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

That said, makes me wanna start Lamenters, these rules. But you can't give them Blood Rage because no RT for them (thank god).
Have you playtested these?

I could see making them have Chapter Tactics (Blood Angels) and making them have the Red Thirst: (Furious Charge and +1 Initiative on the Charge) and Heretical Armoury (Overcharged Engines on Rhinos and Razorbacks, 10 pts for Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Hunters and Stalkers). Also would have exclusive access to all of their units.

BUT where is the fun in that. I do have hope they could get something like what Tau are getting.


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The new Kauyon book has more examples of Strike Forces. I am going to look into making more based on them. They have a lot of Command Benefits. I think I might take the free vehicles out and give BA something different. Also going to make a second Core choice fore them that is composed of stuff that arrives by deep strike with jump packs and land speeders. That one will scatter less. If it has Dante, no scatter at all.

I can agree to everything that gives parity, it's pretty clear that units that are essentially unchanged from codex chapters should have the same. Stats, costs, options, even formations... i already play it as Blood Angels can use librarian conclaves etc.

I'm against adding stuff in that was either never an option or shouldn't be an option though, giving blood chalices for instance as a cheap option could potentially make captains WAY to good, and i'm on the fence for them having access to chapter masters aswell.

GAdvance wrote:
I can agree to everything that gives parity, it's pretty clear that units that are essentially unchanged from codex chapters should have the same. Stats, costs, options, even formations... i already play it as Blood Angels can use librarian conclaves etc.

I'm against adding stuff in that was either never an option or shouldn't be an option though, giving blood chalices for instance as a cheap option could potentially make captains WAY to good, and i'm on the fence for them having access to chapter masters aswell.

I find the best way to know if something is too strong or not is to test it out. Ideally against several different armies and varying lists of different strengths (weak, average, and strong). I find it especially helpful to test the changes out against the most uber broken cheese (usually some flavor of eldar). If it steamrolls cheese like that it is too good same if the change allows that one unit to foil a strong list. Weaker lists and armies should still have some kind of a chance as well. So I guess what I am saying playtest the changes. What seems like a bad idea may be good and vice versa.