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My guess is that the original Rune Priests made up this story as a convenient way to circumvent the Edict of Nikea. But then their descendants actually started to believe in it.

Pretty much. Russ and his inner circle played the 'ignorant barbarian chieftain' to the hilt when it was convenient but were far, far to intelligent and well-educated on the realities of the Imperial understanding of the warp, and technology, to not know they were being massive flaming hypocrites on issues like psykers.

Runes are a unique thing for imperial psykers, but psy-active runes are not unique to the space wolves. It's the basis of most elder psychic techniques, after all.


The ultramarines definitely obeyed the edict of nikea. The World Eaters didn't although we don't know if they did prior to their betrayal. The Death guard would have done.
The Dark Angels did until the Lion countermanded it, but never bothered to notify the marines on Caliban about it. Or anything else.

Psienesis wrote:The TS got Wolfed because Russ didn't do what the Emperor said and, instead, did what Horus said. Horus is the one that told Russ to burn Prospero, not the Emperor, which, of course, drove the surviving TSons right into rebellion.

Oldmike wrote:The wolfs are just rabid dogs who can only attack and kill how anyone thinks they can follow orders is silly

Russ did actually try to take Magnus and the TSons with him to Terra to answer for their treason without a fight. Magnus and the Thousand Sons however refused to surrender to the Emperor's authority(it was not their fault though, Chaos made sure they had simply never received Russ' message, oh great tragedy), which made them into enemies of the Imperium (as there was no way for Russ to know his message had never been received) and Russ' actions fully justified when viewed without hindsight or inside knowledge.

more to the point Russ assumed the bard was an agent of the 1k sons, when he really wasn't.

Eldar Farseers (in addition to many other non-human psychic species) make extensive use of runes for warp-casting, they're hardly unique to Mankind.

locarno24 wrote:The Dark Angels did until the Lion countermanded it, but never bothered to notify the marines on Caliban about it. Or anything else.

Tell that to Zahariel.

Also, Runes wouldn't be what makes Rune Priests not be traditional Psykers, it would be whether or not their World Spirit exists that determines that. As we learned from Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damnded, Gods are made up of the souls of the dead, and the Gods' personalities are determined by the different types of emotions and beliefs that permeate these souls' energies. For example, a strong belief in a couple of gods named Gork and Mork would likely result in two Gods named Gork and Mork forming in the Warp. In the same way, were the tribesmen of Fenris to believe strongly enough in the World Spirit of Fenris, then the World Spirit would probably form in the Warp, and, if they believed it to the kind of God to interact with its worshipers, then it would not be too surprising for it to use Rune Priests as a medium for interacting with the Materium, which would result in Rune Priests just channelling the World Spirit when they got folded into the Space Wolves Legion.

Except that even if what you're saying is true, Doge, and Fenris is an incarnate spirit formed of belief and death... it's still a warp god, they're still warp magic, and rune priests are still psykers.

Rune priests are psykers. At the end of the day they can still use biomancy etc. I think that some people still have the right idea though, with enough will power the warp will bend and create a manifestation of that will power. For example there's a bit in the War of the Fang in which a rune priest is creating a storm and it suddenly gets stronger as he gets angrier, but he claims this is Fenris being enraged by invaders. Reminds me of orks a bit.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Rune priests are psykers. At the end of the day they can still use biomancy etc. I think that some people still have the right idea though, with enough will power the warp will bend and create a manifestation of that will power. For example there's a bit in the War of the Fang in which a rune priest is creating a storm and it suddenly gets stronger as he gets angrier, but he claims this is Fenris being enraged by invaders. Reminds me of orks a bit.

thing is it's stated repeatedly that in 40k primitive sorcery is what many primitive ill informed socities intrepret as psykic powers. rune preists are differant only in that any other society doing this crap would have received a nasty visit from the inqusition by now.

BrianDavion wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Rune priests are psykers. At the end of the day they can still use biomancy etc. I think that some people still have the right idea though, with enough will power the warp will bend and create a manifestation of that will power. For example there's a bit in the War of the Fang in which a rune priest is creating a storm and it suddenly gets stronger as he gets angrier, but he claims this is Fenris being enraged by invaders. Reminds me of orks a bit.

thing is it's stated repeatedly that in 40k primitive sorcery is what many primitive ill informed socities intrepret as psykic powers. rune preists are differant only in that any other society doing this crap would have received a nasty visit from the inqusition by now.

Of course, like I said they are psykers and they use the warp. What I'm trying to get at is that the wolf spirits of fenris may actually exist, not that the rune priests are pulling their power from them/it. I think the wolves strong beliefs just became manifest in the warp. Perhaps same could go for Morkai too, and all the other fenrisian gods.

BrianDavion wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Rune priests are psykers. At the end of the day they can still use biomancy etc. I think that some people still have the right idea though, with enough will power the warp will bend and create a manifestation of that will power. For example there's a bit in the War of the Fang in which a rune priest is creating a storm and it suddenly gets stronger as he gets angrier, but he claims this is Fenris being enraged by invaders. Reminds me of orks a bit.

thing is it's stated repeatedly that in 40k primitive sorcery is what many primitive ill informed socities intrepret as psykic powers. rune preists are differant only in that any other society doing this crap would have received a nasty visit from the inqusition by now.

That's not really true. The fenrisians are watched and if there's any kind of heresy they get an unfriendly reminder of who rules the planet.

The problem with that, 713, is that it's watched by the Space Wolves, not the Inquisition. The Space Wolves who also hold to the heretical worship of Morkai, etc.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The problem with that, 713, is that it's watched by the Space Wolves, not the Inquisition. The Space Wolves who also hold to the heretical worship of Morkai, etc.

Except space wolves don't worship morkai. They don't ask morkai to bless their meals or curse their enemies.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while the wolves may have hated the way the Thousand Sons used the warp the wolves knew it was not their place to judge them. The executioner doesn't sit on the jury - he just does what he's told. Horus told Russ to execute and even then Russ tried to tell Magnus that he was going to take him to Tera. The rage and the hate directed at the wolves is misdirected. It should be pointed at Horus, but it never is.

So yes, the wolves use psychic powers. AND yes, they feel that they are different in that they harness the energy of fenris. Maybe the difference is semantic, maybe it's not. Either way, in 10,000 years the chapter has not fallen to chaos.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The problem with that, 713, is that it's watched by the Space Wolves, not the Inquisition. The Space Wolves who also hold to the heretical worship of Morkai, etc.

Apart from the fact they don't do that as Howler said that really wouldn't make a difference anyway. They get the job done just as well as the Inqusition with the same or less amount of questionable practices considering there are Inquisitors going around using Daemons as weapons.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Rune priests are psykers. At the end of the day they can still use biomancy etc. I think that some people still have the right idea though, with enough will power the warp will bend and create a manifestation of that will power. For example there's a bit in the War of the Fang in which a rune priest is creating a storm and it suddenly gets stronger as he gets angrier, but he claims this is Fenris being enraged by invaders. Reminds me of orks a bit.

thing is it's stated repeatedly that in 40k primitive sorcery is what many primitive ill informed socities intrepret as psykic powers. rune preists are differant only in that any other society doing this crap would have received a nasty visit from the inqusition by now.

That's not really true. The fenrisians are watched and if there's any kind of heresy they get an unfriendly reminder of who rules the planet.

They already gave the Ecclisiarchy a good whooping for calling them heretics in "The Months of Shame"

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Rune priests are psykers. At the end of the day they can still use biomancy etc. I think that some people still have the right idea though, with enough will power the warp will bend and create a manifestation of that will power. For example there's a bit in the War of the Fang in which a rune priest is creating a storm and it suddenly gets stronger as he gets angrier, but he claims this is Fenris being enraged by invaders. Reminds me of orks a bit.

thing is it's stated repeatedly that in 40k primitive sorcery is what many primitive ill informed socities intrepret as psykic powers. rune preists are differant only in that any other society doing this crap would have received a nasty visit from the inqusition by now.

That's not really true. The fenrisians are watched and if there's any kind of heresy they get an unfriendly reminder of who rules the planet.

They already gave the Ecclisiarchy a good whooping for calling them heretics in "The Months of Shame"

That was the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights. And was not about someone calling them heretics.

Yeah, the Ecclesiastical invasion of Fenris for being heretics was called something else.

pm713 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Rune priests are psykers. At the end of the day they can still use biomancy etc. I think that some people still have the right idea though, with enough will power the warp will bend and create a manifestation of that will power. For example there's a bit in the War of the Fang in which a rune priest is creating a storm and it suddenly gets stronger as he gets angrier, but he claims this is Fenris being enraged by invaders. Reminds me of orks a bit.

thing is it's stated repeatedly that in 40k primitive sorcery is what many primitive ill informed socities intrepret as psykic powers. rune preists are differant only in that any other society doing this crap would have received a nasty visit from the inqusition by now.

That's not really true. The fenrisians are watched and if there's any kind of heresy they get an unfriendly reminder of who rules the planet.

They already gave the Ecclisiarchy a good whooping for calling them heretics in "The Months of Shame"

That was the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights. And was not about someone calling them heretics.

Was there not an investigation into the wolves because of their "false gods"? (morkai, allfather)

 NightHowler wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The problem with that, 713, is that it's watched by the Space Wolves, not the Inquisition. The Space Wolves who also hold to the heretical worship of Morkai, etc.

Except space wolves don't worship morkai. They don't ask morkai to bless their meals or curse their enemies.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while the wolves may have hated the way the Thousand Sons used the warp the wolves knew it was not their place to judge them. The executioner doesn't sit on the jury - he just does what he's told. Horus told Russ to execute and even then Russ tried to tell Magnus that he was going to take him to Tera. The rage and the hate directed at the wolves is misdirected. It should be pointed at Horus, but it never is.

So yes, the wolves use psychic powers. AND yes, they feel that they are different in that they harness the energy of fenris. Maybe the difference is semantic, maybe it's not. Either way, in 10,000 years the chapter has not fallen to chaos.

Actually the Space Wolves were accusers in the Nikaea Council. One of their Rune Priests testified against the Thousand Sons. And yes they did judge them. Russ is pretty much using his whole "screentime" in Prospero Burns telling people how foolish Magnus and his sons are. And his rune priests are screaming Maleficarum every page or so.

Engrenages wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The problem with that, 713, is that it's watched by the Space Wolves, not the Inquisition. The Space Wolves who also hold to the heretical worship of Morkai, etc.

Except space wolves don't worship morkai. They don't ask morkai to bless their meals or curse their enemies.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while the wolves may have hated the way the Thousand Sons used the warp the wolves knew it was not their place to judge them. The executioner doesn't sit on the jury - he just does what he's told. Horus told Russ to execute and even then Russ tried to tell Magnus that he was going to take him to Tera. The rage and the hate directed at the wolves is misdirected. It should be pointed at Horus, but it never is.

So yes, the wolves use psychic powers. AND yes, they feel that they are different in that they harness the energy of fenris. Maybe the difference is semantic, maybe it's not. Either way, in 10,000 years the chapter has not fallen to chaos.

Actually the Space Wolves were accusers in the Nikaea Council. One of their Rune Priests testified against the Thousand Sons. And yes they did judge them. Russ is pretty much using his whole "screentime" in Prospero Burns telling people how foolish Magnus and his sons are. And his rune priests are screaming Maleficarum every page or so.

Weren't the Thousand Sons summoning daemons?

pm713 wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The problem with that, 713, is that it's watched by the Space Wolves, not the Inquisition. The Space Wolves who also hold to the heretical worship of Morkai, etc.

Except space wolves don't worship morkai. They don't ask morkai to bless their meals or curse their enemies.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while the wolves may have hated the way the Thousand Sons used the warp the wolves knew it was not their place to judge them. The executioner doesn't sit on the jury - he just does what he's told. Horus told Russ to execute and even then Russ tried to tell Magnus that he was going to take him to Tera. The rage and the hate directed at the wolves is misdirected. It should be pointed at Horus, but it never is.

So yes, the wolves use psychic powers. AND yes, they feel that they are different in that they harness the energy of fenris. Maybe the difference is semantic, maybe it's not. Either way, in 10,000 years the chapter has not fallen to chaos.

Actually the Space Wolves were accusers in the Nikaea Council. One of their Rune Priests testified against the Thousand Sons. And yes they did judge them. Russ is pretty much using his whole "screentime" in Prospero Burns telling people how foolish Magnus and his sons are. And his rune priests are screaming Maleficarum every page or so.

Weren't the Thousand Sons summoning daemons?

Shhhh... We don't talk about that when we're busy hating on Space Wolves.

So, they cast psychic powers with Runes and claim to have a World Spirit that protects them and grants them power...

Really, folks, it's obvious the Space Wolves are just pretending to be Eldar at this point. I give it one more codex before it turns out that there's a sub-branch of Space Wolves called 'Dark Space Wolves' who are like the Space Wolves but a lot more evil and live in the 'Wolf Dimension' which totally isn't the Webway.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Rune priests are psykers. At the end of the day they can still use biomancy etc. I think that some people still have the right idea though, with enough will power the warp will bend and create a manifestation of that will power. For example there's a bit in the War of the Fang in which a rune priest is creating a storm and it suddenly gets stronger as he gets angrier, but he claims this is Fenris being enraged by invaders. Reminds me of orks a bit.

thing is it's stated repeatedly that in 40k primitive sorcery is what many primitive ill informed socities intrepret as psykic powers. rune preists are differant only in that any other society doing this crap would have received a nasty visit from the inqusition by now.

That's not really true. The fenrisians are watched and if there's any kind of heresy they get an unfriendly reminder of who rules the planet.

They already gave the Ecclisiarchy a good whooping for calling them heretics in "The Months of Shame"

That was the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights. And was not about someone calling them heretics.

Was there not an investigation into the wolves because of their "false gods"? (morkai, allfather)

the allfather is just their name for the Emperor.

pm713 wrote:
[]
Weren't the Thousand Sons summoning daemons?

No, they were binding tutelaries - minor warp entities whose nature is to help channel magic.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

pm713 wrote:
[]
Weren't the Thousand Sons summoning daemons?

No, they were binding tutelaries - minor warp entities whose nature is to help channel magic.

That's a little up for debate in-so-far as we can never be quite sure about the allegiance of things coming out of the Warp.

Although I do vaguely recall Ahriman looking at Fenrisian Wolves and remarking that they seemed "similar" to Tutelaries.

By what he meant by "similar" is left a mystery.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

pm713 wrote:
[]
Weren't the Thousand Sons summoning daemons?

No, they were binding tutelaries - minor warp entities whose nature is to help channel magic.

warp entities are by definition deamons. Talon of Horus makes it pretty clear those "minor warp entities" where deamons IMHO

I know, I was being facetious. Tutelaries are Spell Familiars, which when you're not being lied to be a Daemon of Tzeentch, are the damned souls of witches who died from Perils.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I know, I was being facetious. Tutelaries are Spell Familiars, which when you're not being lied to be a Daemon of Tzeentch, are the damned souls of witches who died from Perils.

News to me!

I always wrote them off as being independent warp daemons a la the Enslavers.....

Which part? That Tutelaries are spell familiars, or that spell familiars are damned witches?

The latter part comes from a little blurb in the... 4th edition chaos codex, I think. They also name Tutelary as a kind of familiar, although the source definitely predates the HH books.

BrianDavion wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Rune priests are psykers. At the end of the day they can still use biomancy etc. I think that some people still have the right idea though, with enough will power the warp will bend and create a manifestation of that will power. For example there's a bit in the War of the Fang in which a rune priest is creating a storm and it suddenly gets stronger as he gets angrier, but he claims this is Fenris being enraged by invaders. Reminds me of orks a bit.

thing is it's stated repeatedly that in 40k primitive sorcery is what many primitive ill informed socities intrepret as psykic powers. rune preists are differant only in that any other society doing this crap would have received a nasty visit from the inqusition by now.

That's not really true. The fenrisians are watched and if there's any kind of heresy they get an unfriendly reminder of who rules the planet.

They already gave the Ecclisiarchy a good whooping for calling them heretics in "The Months of Shame"

That was the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights. And was not about someone calling them heretics.

Was there not an investigation into the wolves because of their "false gods"? (morkai, allfather)

the allfather is just their name for the Emperor.

Oh, I know it's just that you probably know how touchy the inquisition can get. "An imperial citizen didn't attend morning prayer to the glorious God Emperor of Mankind? EXTERMINATUS!" Point is is that even calling him by a different name is enough to get in trouble.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Rune priests are psykers. At the end of the day they can still use biomancy etc. I think that some people still have the right idea though, with enough will power the warp will bend and create a manifestation of that will power. For example there's a bit in the War of the Fang in which a rune priest is creating a storm and it suddenly gets stronger as he gets angrier, but he claims this is Fenris being enraged by invaders. Reminds me of orks a bit.

thing is it's stated repeatedly that in 40k primitive sorcery is what many primitive ill informed socities intrepret as psykic powers. rune preists are differant only in that any other society doing this crap would have received a nasty visit from the inqusition by now.

That's not really true. The fenrisians are watched and if there's any kind of heresy they get an unfriendly reminder of who rules the planet.

They already gave the Ecclisiarchy a good whooping for calling them heretics in "The Months of Shame"

That was the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights. And was not about someone calling them heretics.

Was there not an investigation into the wolves because of their "false gods"? (morkai, allfather)

the allfather is just their name for the Emperor.

Oh, I know it's just that you probably know how touchy the inquisition can get. "An imperial citizen didn't attend morning prayer to the glorious God Emperor of Mankind? EXTERMINATUS!" Point is is that even calling him by a different name is enough to get in trouble.

no it's not. the worship of the emperor is incrediably varied, and always has been described as being varied. now cults to the emperor that diverge sharply from the local norm are gonna be looked at. but the use of the term "all father" isn't gonna be thought of as that odd at all