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BaC helped a few friends and I develop an interest in 30k and we've been fans of the game ever since. I play a Salamanders army for both 30k and 40k and I use all marks of armor regardless of which game I'm playing. A Space Marine with a boltgun is a space marine with a bolt gun. I could care less what armor version they are using. As long as my opponent has Space Marines of some kind on the board, then it's "game on" for 30k.

I get that people have every right to refuse to game with others if they don't like their models but to me it screams of elitism and snobbery. I thoroughly enjoy 30k and the more people I can get interested to play the better. If they want to save themselves a few bucks and use BaC or anything else then bravo for them.

I started my 30k army with forge world models before B@C came out but it was a slow process as I only have a small hobby budget. The release of B@C has enabled me to reinforce my tac squads for about a third of the price (I've bought them off eBay separately) and get my army to a playable level faster than it otherwise would have. I think the plastic kits are fantastic although I wish they had more CC weapon arms so I could give more of my world eaters a nice chain axe each. I hope they bring out more plastic kits soon, especially despoiler squads.

I've never met a 30k snoot that had a problem with BaC minis. Maybe it just because of who I game with but sometimes I feel like this perspective of a 30k snoot is largely fictional, like a literary device for asking "I'm insecure about this, is it ok?" Yeah I'm sure there is always someone who feels strongly against anything, but you shouldn't care what they think anyways.

At the end of the day the 30k crowd are simply people who have put a lot of effort into their hobbying, as long as you respect that fact by putting forth effort no one worth listening to is going to care if you took a different approach.

Where do people even find out what mark armour a legion had at a specific time?

 Griddlelol wrote:
Where do people even find out what mark armour a legion had at a specific time?

Reading the fluff I reckon, there are over 30 HH novels plus all the stuff in each of the 6 legion rule books.

Unless someone has an obscene amount is disposal income the affordable ways to start 30k are
1. BaC
2. Recasters.

More power to anything that let's the hobby stay alive in a legit sense. Some of us can not drop 1000 bucks on an army.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Where do people even find out what mark armour a legion had at a specific time?

I don't really know. The novels only really talk about what individuals wear. The FW books talk a bit about what armour was prevalent sometimes but they generally have examples from a few armour marks (There's an Iron Warrior and an Iron Hand shown with MkIV for example). Every legion had access to Mks II-IV in some capacity, enough for you to do a whole army in whatever Mk you want without anyone being able to have an issue with it that's actually grounded in the fluff.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
Where do people even find out what mark armour a legion had at a specific time?

I don't really know. The novels only really talk about what individuals wear. The FW books talk a bit about what armour was prevalent sometimes but they generally have examples from a few armour marks (There's an Iron Warrior and an Iron Hand shown with MkIV for example). Every legion had access to Mks II-IV in some capacity, enough for you to do a whole army in whatever Mk you want without anyone being able to have an issue with it that's actually grounded in the fluff.

It does get mentioned every so often, but not all that consistently, For example as soon as MkIV was developed the Emperor's Children jumped at the chance for the extra mobility, the Death Guard just used whatever they had because it worked (MkII and MkIII). So you do really have to look for it, but it's generally mentioned somewhere, even if only in one sentence.

As for what I think of the original topic: BaC was an excellent introduction for myself and many people I know. I have however used he MkIV for Assault Squads (Extra mobility and all) and then bought MkIII for my other infantry (because Blood Angels had a bunch of MkIII kicking around apparently). So I won't judge someone for only using BaC marines, but it's definitely much cooler to see the FW armour marks on the table.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I've never met a 30k snoot that had a problem with BaC minis. Maybe it just because of who I game with but sometimes I feel like this perspective of a 30k snoot is largely fictional, like a literary device for asking "I'm insecure about this, is it ok?" Yeah I'm sure there is always someone who feels strongly against anything, but you shouldn't care what they think anyways.

At the end of the day the 30k crowd are simply people who have put a lot of effort into their hobbying, as long as you respect that fact by putting forth effort no one worth listening to is going to care if you took a different approach.

Very well said. I've only ever seen the snobby side of the hobby on the internet. A minority of posters, for sure, but there's usually gonna be someone who chimes in about how you're doing it wrong (whatever "it" is at the time). Whatever. We've all got opinions, I s'pose. Some uber dork who can't resist the allure of asinine criticism hopefully isn't ruining anyone's day.

The novels barely mention what Mk armour people are wearing, they're not really focussed on details like that (thankfully, or they'd be a terrible read).

 Griddlelol wrote:
The novels barely mention what Mk armour people are wearing, they're not really focussed on details like that (thankfully, or they'd be a terrible read).

The general disposition of armor patterns:
Early heresy all legions had Mk2, Mk3, and Mk4 where different legions had different proportions of each filling out their armory; some legions likely still had Mk1 armor, but it wasn't in active use and it'd only be some individual eccentric marine of Terran origin that'd even think of using it. Raven Guard were starting to make use of what becomes Mk6 armor on an experimental basis, Alpha Legion are said to have diverted some shipments...

Mid Heresy: Mk4 though still common becomes less common due to the difficulty of maintaining them under strained supply lines. Mk5 starts to become more common by virtue of being a stop gap. Raven Guard rebuilding of their legion sees the greater use of Mk6; some traitors are said to capture armor shipments.

Late Heresy into Scouring: All previous armor sees continued use; Mk7 is said to make its first appearance during the siege of Terra, the Traitor legions are said to have captured a number of the facilities producing it taking factory ships capable of producing it as they flee.

In general any of the legions described as using a lot of swift assault actions prefer Mk4 and Mk6. The legions that take a slow and steady approach lean toward Mk2 and Mk3. Only after a Legion has seen combat are they really making use of Mk5. None of this is mutually exclusive to the other and all legions are likely to have some mix of armor.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
The novels barely mention what Mk armour people are wearing, they're not really focussed on details like that (thankfully, or they'd be a terrible read).

The general disposition of armor patterns:
Early heresy all legions had Mk2, Mk3, and Mk4 where different legions had different proportions of each filling out their armory; some legions likely still had Mk1 armor, but it wasn't in active use and it'd only be some individual eccentric marine of Terran origin that'd even think of using it. Raven Guard were starting to make use of what becomes Mk6 armor on an experimental basis, Alpha Legion are said to have diverted some shipments...

Mid Heresy: Mk4 though still common becomes less common due to the difficulty of maintaining them under strained supply lines. Mk5 starts to become more common by virtue of being a stop gap. Raven Guard rebuilding of their legion sees the greater use of Mk6; some traitors are said to capture armor shipments.

Late Heresy into Scouring: All previous armor sees continued use; Mk7 is said to make its first appearance during the siege of Terra, the Traitor legions are said to have captured a number of the facilities producing it taking factory ships capable of producing it as they flee.

In general any of the legions described as using a lot of swift assault actions prefer Mk4 and Mk6. The legions that take a slow and steady approach lean toward Mk2 and Mk3. Only after a Legion has seen combat are they really making use of Mk5. None of this is mutually exclusive to the other and all legions are likely to have some mix of armor.

Baically this, except no body used mkI armour as that was thunder armour for the thunder warriors, space marines come in mkII and above.

I just meant no one just scraps anything in the 40k universe... It's not in active use, so it's sitting in vaults, armories, or displayed in Halls of Honor. Beyond that I was just trying to say the galaxy is big enough if someone really really really wanted to justify it they probably could as something on a very individual level, no different than the visual variety and distinctiveness presented as artificer armor.

Some of the space marines in one of the novels clearly remember the thunder warriors so there is some period of concurrence between those earliest marines and thunderwarriors.

I didn't even know heresy players getting upset about MK IV armor was a thing. I can't wait for heads to roll when I show up with my 11th Legion...

Why? Because even us nerds have to put up with our own brand of jocks and snobs. It's ironic, really.

Fluffwise there is no reason to use MkIII over MkIV for any legion unless you are portraying a loyalist force at the beginning of the Heresy or a loyalist force that has not been able to resupply for some reason (in which case it should be mostly in MkII or MkIII, or even MkV in the last case)
During the Heresy MkIV became by far the most common type of armour in every legion. Even the legions that preferred MkIII like the Death Guard used MkIV in large numbers.
So really there is no reason not to build your force out of BaC boxes. Your force does become a lot better and more characterful though if you mix in some older marks. Or maybe some MkV if your force has already seen a lot of action.
MkVI should only really be used by the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion though. Altough you could justify a very small number in one of the traitor forces that was present at the Dropsite Massacre (as they looted some RG suits)
After the end of the Heresy during the Scouring, use of armour marks becomes a lot less restrictive. MkVI and even MkVII entered into general issue at that point while MkIV was still extremely common (because it had been produced in such large numbers during the Heresy) and older marks also continued to be used in small numbers by old veterans.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
The novels barely mention what Mk armour people are wearing, they're not really focussed on details like that (thankfully, or they'd be a terrible read).

The general disposition of armor patterns:
Early heresy all legions had Mk2, Mk3, and Mk4 where different legions had different proportions of each filling out their armory; some legions likely still had Mk1 armor, but it wasn't in active use and it'd only be some individual eccentric marine of Terran origin that'd even think of using it. Raven Guard were starting to make use of what becomes Mk6 armor on an experimental basis, Alpha Legion are said to have diverted some shipments...

Mid Heresy: Mk4 though still common becomes less common due to the difficulty of maintaining them under strained supply lines. Mk5 starts to become more common by virtue of being a stop gap. Raven Guard rebuilding of their legion sees the greater use of Mk6; some traitors are said to capture armor shipments.

Late Heresy into Scouring: All previous armor sees continued use; Mk7 is said to make its first appearance during the siege of Terra, the Traitor legions are said to have captured a number of the facilities producing it taking factory ships capable of producing it as they flee.

In general any of the legions described as using a lot of swift assault actions prefer Mk4 and Mk6. The legions that take a slow and steady approach lean toward Mk2 and Mk3. Only after a Legion has seen combat are they really making use of Mk5. None of this is mutually exclusive to the other and all legions are likely to have some mix of armor.

Cool, thanks. where did you get all this info from?

I dislike anything higher than Mk2 lol... So that box isn't for me. I don't mind it getting more people into 30k. I do wish they would all try something other than POtL... Use a different rite of war already

 Griddlelol wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
The novels barely mention what Mk armour people are wearing, they're not really focussed on details like that (thankfully, or they'd be a terrible read).

The general disposition of armor patterns:
Early heresy all legions had Mk2, Mk3, and Mk4 where different legions had different proportions of each filling out their armory; some legions likely still had Mk1 armor, but it wasn't in active use and it'd only be some individual eccentric marine of Terran origin that'd even think of using it. Raven Guard were starting to make use of what becomes Mk6 armor on an experimental basis, Alpha Legion are said to have diverted some shipments...

Mid Heresy: Mk4 though still common becomes less common due to the difficulty of maintaining them under strained supply lines. Mk5 starts to become more common by virtue of being a stop gap. Raven Guard rebuilding of their legion sees the greater use of Mk6; some traitors are said to capture armor shipments.

Late Heresy into Scouring: All previous armor sees continued use; Mk7 is said to make its first appearance during the siege of Terra, the Traitor legions are said to have captured a number of the facilities producing it taking factory ships capable of producing it as they flee.

In general any of the legions described as using a lot of swift assault actions prefer Mk4 and Mk6. The legions that take a slow and steady approach lean toward Mk2 and Mk3. Only after a Legion has seen combat are they really making use of Mk5. None of this is mutually exclusive to the other and all legions are likely to have some mix of armor.

Cool, thanks. where did you get all this info from?

Yeah, what's the source(s) for this? I haven't seen anything that says Marines used Thunder Armour. My copy of Mechanicum says that Mark IV armour was cutting edge when Mars rebels, but apparently BL have edited it MK III in newer printings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Apologies if I come of confrontational - that's not my intent!)

beast_gts wrote:

Yeah, what's the source(s) for this? I haven't seen anything that says Marines used Thunder Armour.

"..The first Space Marines formed part of that retinue and were equipped with the same sort of armour as other warriors of the time." ~ Space Marine Power Armour Described by Rick Priestley (White Dwarf 129, White Dwarf Compilation, Index Astartes: Apocrypha)

"When the Emperor began his conquest of the planet, his armies, including the first Space Marines, were clad in the same fashion." ~ Rites of Battle supplement for the Deathwatch RPG, page 149.

The former article was a pretty comprehensive coverage of Mk1-7 (no mention of 8), the most recent attempts at a comprehensive coverage in Rites of Battle and Imperial Armour 10 are little more than truncated paraphrasals of that original article. The only major contradiction deals with MkV/VI:

beast_gts wrote:
My copy of Mechanicum says that Mark IV armour was cutting edge when Mars rebels, but apparently BL have edited it MK III in newer printings.)

The way I heard it MkIV was the update, with the original printings being MkVI.

Deliverance Lost had the Raven Guard being issued 'artificer-made, pre-production' MkVI by Dorn's order after *after* Isstvan, with MkV being the Mechanicum designation for any non-standard design. Forge World however contradicts the former by having the Raven Guard using it extensively prior to Isstvan, having been issued it for field tests. FW seemingly takes the middle ground in regards to MkV referring to the 'classic' design as 'production MkV' whilst referring to ad-hoc suits as 'non-Production MkV'

As a IW player I use mk4 for my rank and file tacticals, tact support, and iron havocs. However for things like HQs, vets, assault, destroyers or more venerable members of the IW, I prefer Mk3. It gives a feel of the older and more grizzled vets sticking to the heavier and easier to repair armor and makes them stand out abit more like "oh man that's iron armor, those guys are vets and have seen some crap and survived"

The same goes for comtemptor dreads, I have two BaC and a FW IW dread who represents a venerable legionnaire for more elite lists like PotL.

commander dante wrote:
I think people would only have a grudge against it when people use BaC fir legions that didnt have a lot of MKIV power armour (Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, ect)
Whereas legions that used MKIV power armour (Word Bearers, Ultramarines, Alpha Legion, Raven Guard (before they got beakie armour) ect) no one would hate against, as it is fluffy

Were all the Horus-Loyal legions not well stocked with IV armour? Like half the slog for the loyalists during the whole thing was that Horus was pulling some serious logistics fethery regarding new marks of equipment from mars etc?

Like I'm using BaC for a 4th legion project with different mark parts thrown in to show the attrition rate taking it's toll on equipment.

 Zaku212 wrote:

commander dante wrote:
I think people would only have a grudge against it when people use BaC fir legions that didnt have a lot of MKIV power armour (Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, ect)
Whereas legions that used MKIV power armour (Word Bearers, Ultramarines, Alpha Legion, Raven Guard (before they got beakie armour) ect) no one would hate against, as it is fluffy

Were all the Horus-Loyal legions not well stocked with IV armour? Like half the slog for the loyalists during the whole thing was that Horus was pulling some serious logistics fethery regarding new marks of equipment from mars etc?

Like I'm using BaC for a 4th legion project with different mark parts thrown in to show the attrition rate taking it's toll on equipment.

traitor legions did tend to have more, as well as those legions that morty was trying to sway to his cause (blood angels, TS) the UM also had a ton as they had their own forges. White Scars probably had a really low number as most of their legion was way out in the space-sticks and got back in mid heresy. RG had a lot of MK VI. Unless forge world is changing up fluff to try and sell more calth, MK IV was still a farely new thing, and as such wasn't "always" common in every legion like some people claim.

@ Zaku212 true to a point, however both the Death Guard and Iron Warriors disliked MK IV armour for how fragile it was. Both didn't like how the armour was not something you could quickly repair, and both preferred the higher durability and heavier front armour of MK III since it meshed better with their tactics. Yes, HH legions had access to a decent number of them, but that does not mean it was the most common thin in certain traitor legions (not directed at your comment, but the many that state something similar)

I got the BaC set and painted it up as Iron Warriors and use mars pattern vehicles. Only FW unit I have is a kitbashed Iron Hand mk3/Immortal/mk3 breacher squad.

The mk4 looks great in IW colors so if your thinking of painting them up in 4th legion colors go for it. Don't worry about people saying X legion only used X armor, unless there is a page number for that your building a fluffy army. If people "hate" on you for "cheating" you might be better off avoiding them.

Don't worry about people saying X legion only used X armor, unless there is a page number for that your building a fluffy army. If people "hate" on you for "cheating" you might be better off avoiding them.

Exactly so.
A legion was tens (hundreds in some cases) of thousands of astartes, split into over a dozen major battlefield formations and hundreds of minor detachments spread across the imperium, each resupplying catch-as-catch can from whatever forge world happened to be nearest.

If you're specifically trying to replicate a single, described-in-the-books company, then someone might have a valid argument that they're 'equipped wrong', but even if a mark of armour is 'really rare' within a legion, that still means they might 'only' have a couple of thousand suits of the stuff!

I picked up some Praetorian bits from FW to make up for it, but seeing as I play Ultramarines, there's no reason to be upset at my dudes running around in MK4.

Again, I repeat: I think 90% of the 'hate' is the fact that post calth, a HUGE number of armies became pretty damn close to the same exact thing, either in look or in models or how the list was built. Pre-Calth there was a bit of a forced hand of either conversions, or people choosing their favorite armour (or mix of armour), but now, it's rare to see an army that ISN'T mostly plastic MK IV, which honestly is a bit disappointing, but livable. Actual hate of BAC should be rare, but being a bit jaded that most armies now-a-days seem to be 1-2 Calths + some extra vehicles seems fair enough. A loss of visual variety is something to be (a bit) sad about.

As I said before: I've bought 2 or 3 for myself, but at the same time, MK IV is never going to be the bulk of my DG as the fluff states: DG (and to an extent IW) disliked how stupidly hard to maintain MK IV is compared to MK II and III. If a suit of MK IV took critical damage, it would take ages to repair, compared to MK II or III where you can just yoink from another suit and do much faster repairs. Additionally, the fact that it was not as well suited to frontal assaults or zones mortalis battles, these legions did make use of MK IV less: they didn't avoid it, they just did not prefer it. A similar argument could be made for White Scars (being that their entire legion was WAAAAY out in the space-sticks until post Prospero, meaning, in all fluffy fairness, they would have a rather low count of MK IV.

My biggest issue with Calth is now, nearly every upgrade kit is seemingly designed for MK IV. One key example (for me personally) is the Death Guard's up-and-coming power scythes. What MK are the arms in the kit? MK IV, even though the legion basically goes hand in hand with MK III whenever they define the legion in the fluff or the black books. It's pretty damn close to a slap in the face to anyone who ISN'T collecting MK IV :(

I wouldn't claim to know all IW fluff but where is the reference to them not liking mk4 found? To me their warfare style favors mk4 but I don't expect FW or GW writers to know why that would be the case. I deliberately prefer mk4 IW over mk3 because of IW's favored combat style.Then again I'm also not concerned about other people's opinion of my fluff lol.

Any Mk info I can find puts Mk3 more rare leading up to the heresy for traitors then Mk4. With Mk3 being phased out for boarding aasaults in favor of terminator armor. Mk3 being a stop gap measure and predominantly official modification of mk2. Clunky, marginal protection increase at the cost of increased power plant drain and decreased mobility, the mk3 seems to only be favored for aesthetic reasons. Something not really well suited for general combat use but fairly well designed at the time for specific mission requirments.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I wouldn't claim to know all IW fluff but where is the reference to them not liking mk4 found? To me their warfare style favors mk4 but I don't expect FW or GW writers to know why that would be the case. I deliberately prefer mk4 IW over mk3 because of IW's favored combat style.Then again I'm also not concerned about other people's opinion of my fluff lol.

Any Mk info I can find puts Mk3 more rare leading up to the heresy for traitors then Mk4. With Mk3 being phased out for boarding aasaults in favor of terminator armor. Mk3 being a stop gap measure and predominantly official modification of mk2. Clunky, marginal protection increase at the cost of increased power plant drain and decreased mobility, the mk3 seems to only be favored for aesthetic reasons. Something not really well suited for general combat use but fairly well designed at the time for specific mission requirments.

Kinda sorta.

As for the IW: by 'official fluff' (do with that as you will, no stab towards you intended) IW do full on, frontal siege assaults. As such, they HEAVILY favored Cataphractii terminator plate, and MK III due to it's increased frontal armour. In the fluff, IW bomb the gak out of a castle, continually, and then once their trenches are dug, everybody bum-rushes the fort to kill survivors, those of whom are normaly entrenched with very big guns. IW also had DG-itis of not being to fond of hard-to-maintain gear (i.e. Volkite, plasma, and MK IV armour)

MK III was rarer amongst some traitor armies as Horus was using his power to give everybody the best stuff (hence why traitors have more sicarians). This was great for SOH, WE, NL, EC, AL, and WB. However, for the more attrition and/or heavy Armour focused legions (DG and IW on the traitor side, IF, IH, Salamanders on the loyalist side), it was nice, but they still saw the flaws in the super hard to maintain suits. The flaw with the second half of what you mentioned was that MK III was almost universally preferred for boarding actions and battles that were to be fought in super close quarters. Unlike Cataphractii the increased drain, and 'reduction' in mobility was hardly there for MK III. The flaw of MK III is that the much increased frontal armour came at the cost of rear armour (basically, to represent it on the table, it would be like having a rerollable 3+ from your infantry's front ark, and a 4+ from the rear. kinda hard to represent on infantry without killing game time)

It would also be noted that MK III, much like MK II, was super easy to maintain, unlike the bleeding edge technology of MK IV, which from some sources took 10+ years to make from scratch, and required specialized training (beyond the normal) for maintaining all functions of MK IV. This is part of the reason why they ditched MK IV after the heresy: Far to difficult to actually maintain effectively.

I've haven't read that point of view on the mk4 (which isn't to say it doesn't exist).

However, while slower but slightly more frontal protection makes sense for a frontal assault, it really doesn't . The superior mobility, communications and optics of the mk4 would be a much bigger asset to an IW doing IW stuff than the mk3. The speed to close in on your target, ability to coordinate the movement and capability to fire on target during movement to target on a frontal assault would be more appreciated than the ability to potentially take a little bit more damage.

One could wonder why they wouldn't just field modify the mk4 like they did to the mk2 fo make mk3. Similar to mk4 destroyer modifications or likely the eventual mk4 breacher.

As I said I don't expect GW and FW writers to know why their explanations don't make sense. If they say X legion does X warfare and thus uses X gear, the rational for it all can be a little wonky sometimes. IW are bunker breakers and fortification breachers, sounds like that means siege with trenches and artillery, in reality it would mean mobile assaults under heavy cover fire. They do get the attrition aspect correct though lol. So I'm usually dubious of "offical" fluff specifics and go with fluff intent.