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2016/07/07 17:57:10
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
Desubot wrote: The only thing im confused about is usually when police pull you over, they will ask for license and registration first before you get out of the car. so why would be have been reaching for his wallet once he was out of the car.
Also not sure about else ware but in CA they generally keep you in the car for safety.
Highlights:
- Governor is calling for the Feds to lead the investigation
- Girlfriend claims the victim identified he was a CC permit holder and was in fact carrying a weapon
- Nearby witnesses say the cop told the victim to put his hands up, and fired immediately after making the statement 4 or 5 times
- Dude had no criminal record
- Girlfriend claims no tail light damage existed
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2016/07/07 17:57:32
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
SemperMortis wrote: I read earlier about this (cant remember where honestly) that the man identified himself to the officer as having both a concealed weapon and a CC permit, and after telling the cop this he reached behind his back for his wallet. From that point onward the details are completely non-existent but based solely on that I think both acted poorly, but the officer should not have fired his weapon at all. By the same token though I just recently read this article and it shows how this stop SHOULD have happened.
Regardless of your rights and what you think should happen, you should always act extra cautiously when interacting with law enforcement when you are armed. They aren't all racists, they aren't out to get you, but they do want to be treated like a human being and at the end of their shift they want to be alive and go home to their families.
Minnesota law says concealed carry permits have duty to inform LEOs that they have a permit and are armed and need to produce the permit. If the victim informed the officer that he was armed and had a permit, as required by law, he would then need to reach for his wallet and produce his permit. I have seen some people on other forums question the wisdom of the deceased carrying his wallet in his back pocket where it was close to the holstered pistol on his hip. Personally I wouldn't advise somebody to carry that way either but I prefer IWB appendix carry, of course that's just personal preference, carrying the way the deceased did is perfectly legal. Once he informed the officer he was armed and reaching for his permit the officer shouldn't have been alarmed by the sight of a holstered pistol.
Do I need to have my permit with me when carrying my pistol? Yes, the permit holder must have the permit card and a valid driver’s license, state identification card, or other government-issued photo identification in immediate possession at all times when carrying a pistol and must display the permit card and identification document when requested by a peace officer.
Do I have to disclose to a peace officer that I am a permit holder and carrying a firearm? Yes, upon request of a peace officer, a permit holder must disclose to the officer whether or not the permit holder is currently carrying a firearm.
You have to put yourself in the cops shoes though. If you read the link i posted you can see how it should have happened. I think it is a better policy for the PD to disarm the man first and return the weapon afterwards. Of course this then strays into the grounds of unreasonable search and seizure and and a host of other problems. But like I said, It is always better to be extra careful when dealing with the police when you are armed.
I strongly disagree with your proposed protocol. The LAST thing the cops should want me to do when I inform them that I am an armed permit holder is for me to handle my weapon at all, even if it's just to hand it over to them. If you have your permit you can carry concealed, there is no reason for LEOs to be afraid of permit holders, they've already demonstrated to the state that they are trustworthy and have been given permission to carry. I'd have just as much of a right to tell the cop to disarm for my safety than for him to demand it of me. Once it produce the carry permit and the police verify it's authentic we're done. Nobody has to be disarmed, no weapons need to drawn or handled. The surest way to make sure nobody gets shot and everybody stays safe is to keep all the guns holstered.
In the example I linked the officers actually disarmed the man. Simply by telling the officer and then following his instructions they were able to quickly solve the problem and because he was so cooperative the Police Officer only gave the guy a verbal warning to fix his tail light instead of a ticket.
Desubot wrote: The only thing im confused about is usually when police pull you over, they will ask for license and registration first before you get out of the car. so why would be have been reaching for his wallet once he was out of the car.
Also not sure about else ware but in CA they generally keep you in the car for safety.
Highlights:
- Governor is calling for the Feds to lead the investigation
- Girlfriend claims the victim identified he was a CC permit holder and was in fact carrying a weapon
- Nearby witnesses say the cop told the victim to put his hands up, and fired immediately after making the statement 4 or 5 times
- Dude had no criminal record
- Girlfriend claims no tail light damage existed
wait the cop told the victim to put his hands up 4-5 times? before shooting him? something is not right here. as to the girlfriend something tells me she may be lying about something.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/07/07 18:00:08
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
d-usa wrote: I've had cops draw on my when I told them that I carried, as has my brother. Some cops can't handle legal carry and shouldn't be cops.
When I was in Cali I was stopped a few times (DWW in a nonW area) and they always had weapons drawn on the passenger side.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/07/07 18:00:28
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
d-usa wrote: I've had cops draw on my when I told them that I carried, as has my brother. Some cops can't handle legal carry and shouldn't be cops.
I agree with that statement 100%. Just because you are using your 2nd amendment right you shouldn't be drawn on. Now if you are acting aggressively or erratically at the time, then yeah I think the cops have a right to be ready (not saying you were doing that at all btw, just using that as an example of when it would be ok)
SemperMortis wrote: I read earlier about this (cant remember where honestly) that the man identified himself to the officer as having both a concealed weapon and a CC permit, and after telling the cop this he reached behind his back for his wallet. From that point onward the details are completely non-existent but based solely on that I think both acted poorly, but the officer should not have fired his weapon at all. By the same token though I just recently read this article and it shows how this stop SHOULD have happened.
Regardless of your rights and what you think should happen, you should always act extra cautiously when interacting with law enforcement when you are armed. They aren't all racists, they aren't out to get you, but they do want to be treated like a human being and at the end of their shift they want to be alive and go home to their families.
Minnesota law says concealed carry permits have duty to inform LEOs that they have a permit and are armed and need to produce the permit. If the victim informed the officer that he was armed and had a permit, as required by law, he would then need to reach for his wallet and produce his permit. I have seen some people on other forums question the wisdom of the deceased carrying his wallet in his back pocket where it was close to the holstered pistol on his hip. Personally I wouldn't advise somebody to carry that way either but I prefer IWB appendix carry, of course that's just personal preference, carrying the way the deceased did is perfectly legal. Once he informed the officer he was armed and reaching for his permit the officer shouldn't have been alarmed by the sight of a holstered pistol.
Do I need to have my permit with me when carrying my pistol? Yes, the permit holder must have the permit card and a valid driver’s license, state identification card, or other government-issued photo identification in immediate possession at all times when carrying a pistol and must display the permit card and identification document when requested by a peace officer.
Do I have to disclose to a peace officer that I am a permit holder and carrying a firearm? Yes, upon request of a peace officer, a permit holder must disclose to the officer whether or not the permit holder is currently carrying a firearm.
You have to put yourself in the cops shoes though. If you read the link i posted you can see how it should have happened. I think it is a better policy for the PD to disarm the man first and return the weapon afterwards. Of course this then strays into the grounds of unreasonable search and seizure and and a host of other problems. But like I said, It is always better to be extra careful when dealing with the police when you are armed.
I strongly disagree with your proposed protocol. The LAST thing the cops should want me to do when I inform them that I am an armed permit holder is for me to handle my weapon at all, even if it's just to hand it over to them. If you have your permit you can carry concealed, there is no reason for LEOs to be afraid of permit holders, they've already demonstrated to the state that they are trustworthy and have been given permission to carry. I'd have just as much of a right to tell the cop to disarm for my safety than for him to demand it of me. Once it produce the carry permit and the police verify it's authentic we're done. Nobody has to be disarmed, no weapons need to drawn or handled. The surest way to make sure nobody gets shot and everybody stays safe is to keep all the guns holstered.
In the example I linked the officers actually disarmed the man. Simply by telling the officer and then following his instructions they were able to quickly solve the problem and because he was so cooperative the Police Officer only gave the guy a verbal warning to fix his tail light instead of a ticket.
Respectfully, just because it worked out ok in one instance doesn't make it smart policy to be asking citizens to needlessly handle firearms in front of nervous cops. That's a recipe for disaster.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheMeanDM wrote: Minnesota does not require you to identify yourself as having a CCW...from what I have found.
Do I need to have my permit with me when carrying my pistol? Yes, the permit holder must have the permit card and a valid driver’s license, state identification card, or other government-issued photo identification in immediate possession at all times when carrying a pistol and must display the permit card and identification document when requested by a peace officer.
Do I have to disclose to a peace officer that I am a permit holder and carrying a firearm? Yes, upon request of a peace officer, a permit holder must disclose to the officer whether or not the permit holder is currently carrying a firearm.
If the permit holder was taught that he had a duty to inform and produce his permit then that would explain why he would be reaching for his wallet after informing the cops even if he wasn't driving.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/07 18:04:00
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2016/07/07 18:05:11
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
I will never consent to having a butterfinger officer try to disarm me. I won't stop them obviously, but I won't tell them that's okay. If they are okay with me removing and clearing my weapon then I am perfectly fine with doing that. Ideally, notification should be the end of the story. I always carry my license on the opposite side of my gun, and when I notify them that I carry I tell them it's on my right side and that I will get my wallet from the left.
2016/07/07 18:11:49
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
wait the cop told the victim to put his hands up 4-5 times? before shooting him? something is not right here. as to the girlfriend something tells me she may be lying about something.
No, he was shot 4-5 times. It's in the article.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2016/07/07 18:12:50
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
Typically in Texas interactions usually involve the CHLer telling the PoPo. The PoPo will usually just have them be cool and keep their hands away from the location. Some PoPo (especially in San Antonio and Austin which are pretty antiCHL) will stop you and the PoPo will remove the firearm. Safer than you doing it but scary as crap given police ND rates.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/07/07 18:16:36
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
Okay so Let's keep some things in mind the guy shoot him 4 times. Okay we are still trying to figure out what happend there. But here's my question, why didn't the donkey-cave try to at least give some medical care? He had plenty of time to take him out the car and apply pressure to the wound but he didn't?
3000 points
2016/07/07 18:17:34
Subject: Re:Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
Again to clarify, in the link i posted the OFFICERS disarmed the individual in question. The civilian never touched his weapon until the police returned it to him in an evidence bag unloaded and cleared.
I think that is a better way of doing things rather then asking for the man to give over his CC permit which will most likely be in your wallet, which will most likely be near your weapon, which will most likely put the officer stopping you on edge and give him a reasonable fear for his life.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/07 18:20:56
Frazzled wrote: Typically in Texas interactions usually involve the CHLer telling the PoPo. The PoPo will usually just have them be cool and keep their hands away from the location. Some PoPo (especially in San Antonio and Austin which are pretty antiCHL) will stop you and the PoPo will remove the firearm. Safer than you doing it but scary as crap given police ND rates.
More bad policy. Why have people needlessly handling a firearm, especially if they are already feeling nervous/threatened, when all you have to do is have somebody hand over a paper card?
Teaching police to fear the populace and view us as a threat is a major factor in why we keep seeing this situations where cops feel the need to overreact and use excessive force.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2016/07/07 18:18:22
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
Mr.bacon wrote: Okay so Let's keep some things in mind the guy shoot him 4 times. Okay we are still trying to figure out what happend there. But here's my question, why didn't the donkey-cave try to at least give some medical care? He had plenty of time to take him out the car and apply pressure to the wound but he didn't?
This has been something I've noticed in quite a few of these shootings. There doesn't appear to be any requirement for the officer to provide first aid.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2016/07/07 18:19:21
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
Mr.bacon wrote: Okay so Let's keep some things in mind the guy shoot him 4 times. Okay we are still trying to figure out what happend there. But here's my question, why didn't the donkey-cave try to at least give some medical care? He had plenty of time to take him out the car and apply pressure to the wound but he didn't?
In a situation in which the suspect is still believed to be armed the officer is to avoid the suspect and keep him covered. Rendering first aid could expose the officer. It is unfortunate but that is what they do. Very similar to ROEs in combat. You don't render first aid to enemy wounded until they are definitely disarmed.
Frazzled wrote: Typically in Texas interactions usually involve the CHLer telling the PoPo. The PoPo will usually just have them be cool and keep their hands away from the location. Some PoPo (especially in San Antonio and Austin which are pretty antiCHL) will stop you and the PoPo will remove the firearm. Safer than you doing it but scary as crap given police ND rates.
More bad policy. Why have people needlessly handling a firearm, especially if they are already feeling nervous/threatened, when all you have to do is have somebody hand over a paper card?
Teaching police to fear the populace and view us as a threat is a major factor in why we keep seeing this situations where cops feel the need to overreact and use excessive force.
AS I said, they typically don't in Texas. especially in the last several years. San Antonio appears the major exception.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/07/07 18:22:22
Subject: Re:Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
SemperMortis wrote: Again to clarify, in the link i posted the OFFICERS disarmed the individual in question. The civilian never touched his weapon until the police returned it to him in an evidence bag unloaded and cleared.
I think that is a better way of doing things rather then asking for the man to give over his CC permit which will most likely be in your wallet, which will most likely be near your weapon, which will most likely put the officer stopping you on edge and give him a reasonable fear for his life.
I don't want to derail the thread with this tangent so we may have to agree to disagree. It doesn't matter who is handling the firearm, the fact remains thatnobody needs to be handling it at all. The surest way to make sure nobody gets shot is to keep the gun in the holster. If I declare that I'm a permit holder and carrying I can lift my shirt up so the cops can see my pistol and with my other hand take my wallet out of my pocket. The cops can see the pistol is safe and secure in my holster and keeping it that way ensures it's not a threat to anyone.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/07 18:26:52
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2016/07/07 18:23:15
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
Mr.bacon wrote: Okay so Let's keep some things in mind the guy shoot him 4 times. Okay we are still trying to figure out what happend there. But here's my question, why didn't the donkey-cave try to at least give some medical care? He had plenty of time to take him out the car and apply pressure to the wound but he didn't?
Its not their job to perform medical care on site.
as well its a liability thing
(IIRC)
which is complete bull gak but makes sense in our sue you sue me culture.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/07 18:23:21
Mr.bacon wrote: Okay so Let's keep some things in mind the guy shoot him 4 times. Okay we are still trying to figure out what happend there. But here's my question, why didn't the donkey-cave try to at least give some medical care? He had plenty of time to take him out the car and apply pressure to the wound but he didn't?
This has been something I've noticed in quite a few of these shootings. There doesn't appear to be any requirement for the officer to provide first aid.
I am not a lawyer, but calling an ambulance is legally all he's required to do, even as a PO.
I think.
maybe.
Dunno.
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2016/07/07 19:00:23
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
Asterios wrote: The only thing im confused about is usually when police pull you over, they will ask for license and registration first before you get out of the car. so why would be have been reaching for his wallet once he was out of the car.
Poor English on my part due to speed.
The cop fired 4 or 5 times, but gave the order once.
As soon as he told the guy to put his hands up he fired.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr.bacon wrote: Okay so Let's keep some things in mind the guy shoot him 4 times. Okay we are still trying to figure out what happend there. But here's my question, why didn't the donkey-cave try to at least give some medical care? He had plenty of time to take him out the car and apply pressure to the wound but he didn't?
CPR was provided on scene before the ambulance arrived. I am unsure if it was the shooter or a different cop who arrived as back-up.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/07/07 19:03:36
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2016/07/07 19:13:52
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
Asterios wrote: The only thing im confused about is usually when police pull you over, they will ask for license and registration first before you get out of the car. so why would be have been reaching for his wallet once he was out of the car.
Poor English on my part due to speed.
The cop fired 4 or 5 times, but gave the order once.
As soon as he told the guy to put his hands up he fired.
so the cop shot him 4-5 times at that close of a range with others in the car? this whole story sounds like something out of the movies.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/07/07 19:16:01
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
• Police made a traffic stop around 9 p.m. near the intersection of Larpenteur Avenue and Fry Street in Falcon Heights.
• An officer fired his weapon and struck the man, who was a cafeteria supervisor at J.J. Hill Montessori School in St. Paul.
• Castile was taken to Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis, where he died at 9:37 p.m.
• In the moments after the shooting, a woman who was in the car with Castile shot a video with her cellphone and live-streamed it on Facebook from an account linked to Lavish Reynolds.
Philando Castile, right, was shot Wednesday night during a traffic stop in Falcon Heights.
• The woman, Diamond Reynolds, who identified herself as Castile’s girlfriend, said in the video that “police shot him for no apparent reason, no reason at all.” The video shows the man in the driver’s seat slumped next to her, his white T-shirt soaked with blood on the left side.
• Reynolds said Castile was just reaching to get his ID when an officer fired four times.
• A child was in the car at the time of the incident.
• Reynolds said during a news conference outside the governor's residence Thursday that she and Castile were coming from the grocery store when they were stopped by police for a broken light. She said the light wasn't broken.
• Reynolds said she and Castile had been at a shop to get his hair done for his birthday. He would have turned 33 years old on July 16.
• St. Anthony interim police chief Jon Mangseth read a statement in which he confirmed a St. Anthony police officer pulled an individual over for a traffic stop. “During the stop, shots were fired,” he said. He did not name the individual, but said that an adult male had died.
• Protesters gathered in front of the governor’s residence in St. Paul demanding answers and blocking traffic.
• The Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension will lead the investigation.
• Gov. Mark Dayton said in a release that he has requested the U.S. Department of Justice "begin an immediate independent federal investigation" into the killing.
• During a news conference at the governor's residence, Dayton said: "My deepest condolences go out to the family and friends. On behalf of all decent minded Minnesotans, we are shocked and horrified by what occurred last night. This kind of behavior is unacceptable. It is not the norm in Minnesota. I promise … to see that this matter is brought to justice and all avenues are pursued and do a complete investigation. Justice will be served in Minnesota.”
• Sen. Al Franken, D-Minn., also called for a federal investigation. He said in a statement: "I am horrified that we are forced to confront yet another death of a young African-American man at the hands of law enforcement. And I am heartbroken for Philando’s family and loved ones, whose son, brother, boyfriend, and nephew was taken from them last night."
• A vigil for Castile is planned for 5:30 p.m. Thursday at J.J. Hill Montessori Magnet School in St. Paul, where he was employed as a cafeteria worker.
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2016/07/07 19:25:10
Subject: Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
• The Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension will lead the investigation.
• Gov. Mark Dayton said in a release that he has requested the U.S. Department of Justice "begin an immediate independent federal investigation" into the killing.
I like the idea of a third party investigating the incident. If the cop if found to be at fault, I hope they throw the book at him.
People have probably already made up their minds, either way. And that is unfortunate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/07 19:25:38
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2016/07/07 19:30:50
Subject: Re:Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
ok something i'm confused about here, the woman's boyfriend is shot and all she cares about is videotaping it? not trying to call for medical help or anything?
also lets hope the FBI don't investigate this
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/07 19:31:14
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/07/07 19:33:43
Subject: Re:Woman Live Streams Aftermath of Fatal Police Shooting
Asterios wrote: ok something i'm confused about here, the woman's boyfriend is shot and all she cares about is videotaping it? not trying to call for medical help or anything?
also lets hope the FBI don't investigate this
People deal with traumatic events in different ways. She thought he had just been murdered by the cops so she wanted to record it to show and preserve the evidence of that crime she just witnessed.
Asterios wrote: ok something i'm confused about here, the woman's boyfriend is shot and all she cares about is videotaping it? not trying to call for medical help or anything?
also lets hope the FBI don't investigate this
People deal with traumatic events in different ways. She thought he had just been murdered by the cops so she wanted to record it to show and preserve the evidence of that crime she just witnessed.
SemperMortis wrote: Rendering first aid could expose the officer. It is unfortunate but that is what they do. Very similar to ROEs in combat. You don't render first aid to enemy wounded until they are definitely disarmed.
Minnesota is not Afghanistan - your posts really illustrate terrifically why police departments generally should not hire former military.
I'd like to see the dashcam or body cam footage if it exists, but I am immediately wondering why the cop's gun was out at all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/07 23:56:41
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3000 points 
