Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dead Men Walking. It's the only book I've read where characters devolve because of war. The conflict eats at their souls, smashes their hearts, and turns characters into ghosts. It's tragic, ugly, and beautiful.

If by ''deep'' you mean a book that makes you start thinking about certain things then:
Horus Rising - you can be suprised how many different thoughts are packed in there. My favourite quote ''we are mighty because we are right''.
Dead Man Walking - how war changes a human and how much our species can dehumanize themselves.
A Thousand Sons - probably the best written ''tragedy'' in BL.
From shorts I recommend The Last Church and Last Remembrancer.

 Gobbla wrote:
Anything by Ian Watson. At the dawn of time, GW contracted a real, established Science Fiction author to write the first novels about their nascent 40K Universe.

Seconded. It shows.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Define "crappy". In a lot of discussions like this, accusations of poor quality seem to relate to the accuracy of the setting details rather then Han the quality of writing.

IIRC, Dan Abnett's first novels were written for Black Library. He'd written for several comics for decades before then, but perhaps there are elements of the novel-writing craft that took time to be perfected.

I was just asking about what I heard about Dan Abnett.

To me personally, his novels have a rather gimmicky comic-action tone throughout. And possess the melodrama of those cheesy 80s action films.

that.... pretty much describes 40k though.

Deeply cheesy.

 djones520 wrote:
15 Hours

That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title.

My suggestions for some BL books that stood out to me as being more than 'Bro, do you even Grimdark?!' are:

15 Hours
Eisenhorn
Lord of the Night
Faith and Fire

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
"Grimdark" isn't necessarily "deep". In fact, the very term, as a pejorative, was coined to describe the sort of shallow stuff that thinks it's being important or meaningful by having lots of death and no "good" guys but doesn't really do anything interesting.

Well, yes, sometimes it is executed so poorly and contrivedly that it becomes silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Define "crappy". In a lot of discussions like this, accusations of poor quality seem to relate to the accuracy of the setting details rather then Han the quality of writing.

IIRC, Dan Abnett's first novels were written for Black Library. He'd written for several comics for decades before then, but perhaps there are elements of the novel-writing craft that took time to be perfected.

I was just asking about what I heard about Dan Abnett.

To me personally, his novels have a rather gimmicky comic-action tone throughout. And possess the melodrama of those cheesy 80s action films.

that.... pretty much describes 40k though.

well, depends. 40k is not always consistent

messhallcook wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
15 Hours

That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title.

My suggestions for some BL books that stood out to me as being more than 'Bro, do you even Grimdark?!' are:

15 Hours
Eisenhorn
Lord of the Night
Faith and Fire

haha thanks

Steve Parker's Deathwatch.

The Gaunt Ghost series had me caring the most about the characters... also where it gives some insight in living within a chaos held world (that isn't just psyco cray)

And there are a couple of shorts within the omnibus' that put in some feels..

Also there is a short in Revenor where he investigates a series of ritualistic murders

The First Heretic and The Talon of Horus for me. Lorgar's pilgrimage and subsequent fall to Chaos, as well as Argel Tal's story, is probably the most tragic and moving tale in the entire setting. The Talon of Horus just because of the scale and epicness of the story, as well as the unique cast of characters.

Another favorite that's just as good is the The Underworld War, about a Gal Vorbak legionnaire stranded beneath the surface of Calth. I don't want to spoil too much but the depictions of symbiosis between a daemon and its host was the best, even better than in The First Heretic. It's part of the Mark of Calth anthology, so beneath most people's radars. But I'd definitely check it out! It's also a direct prequel to Betrayer, along with Aurelian.

(I think the order goes The First Heretic -> Aurelian -> The Underworld War -> Betrayer)

And you hear ADB getting praise about the Night Lords all the time, but personally, I think he's even better with the Word Bearers. They went from one of my least favorite legions to my second favorite (cause First Legion forever )!

 Jimsolo wrote:
The Night Lords trilogy.

I find the Night Lords trilogy lacks the same depth, even though it's by the same author. It's more similar to Gaunt's Ghosts in that sense, where you follow a small group that heroically overcomes all odds, but at the cost of believability. Instead of epic, it just had me going "huh? really?" all the time.

Plus a lot of the depictions of characters central to the setting (Abbadon, for example) seem to clash directly with the depictions in other works (including his own) and seem there just for the purpose of making his own characters look good (which is a big minus for me).

Also, how self-righteous (I know, the characters are flawed on purpose) Talos is really grates on your nerves after a while. He's no Sevatar. So yea, for my Night Lords dose, I prefer Prince of Crows.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
If you want a deep story you really should not be looking at the stuff that BL puts out. Go read some real literature (do try Tolstoy) instead if you want a deep story. Ultimately, every 40k work is written primarily to entertain teens and young adults. It is just for fun, not meant to be deep.

That said, I am very fond of Wrath of Iron. It is pretty good as far as 40k novels go.

LOL, I'm with you here. I read oodles of 30/40k and I read them because they are shallow and entertaining! Eisenhorn is a great detective novel comparable to John Grisham but hardly deep.

I think all art will show human nature, conscience, sin and goodness no matter how shallow it appears, so in that way everything can have depth if your looking for it but I don't expect Tolstoy when I pick up ADBs latest hit.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Ultimately, every 40k work is written primarily to entertain teens and young adults. It is just for fun, not meant to be deep.

While I won't argue with your on GW's purpose, someone has to tell them that young people and children by and large DON'T BUY BOOKS! Adults buy books for children, but mostly for themselves. I guess that explains why many of the novels are subpar.

H.

Fulgrim from the HH series.

Knockagh wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
If you want a deep story you really should not be looking at the stuff that BL puts out. Go read some real literature (do try Tolstoy) instead if you want a deep story. Ultimately, every 40k work is written primarily to entertain teens and young adults. It is just for fun, not meant to be deep.

That said, I am very fond of Wrath of Iron. It is pretty good as far as 40k novels go.

LOL, I'm with you here. I read oodles of 30/40k and I read them because they are shallow and entertaining! Eisenhorn is a great detective novel comparable to John Grisham but hardly deep.

I think all art will show human nature, conscience, sin and goodness no matter how shallow it appears, so in that way everything can have depth if your looking for it but I don't expect Tolstoy when I pick up ADBs latest hit.

Now this is a reasonable perspective, I agree entirely. I've read some very 'shallow' books that have affected me deeply nonetheless.

For my contribution, I'll put up 13th Legion. Wait, wait, settle down now, hear me out - I know Gav Thorpe has a bad rep, but seriously, this book has some great characters in it, and as far as 'depth' goes it has a very interesting narrative on 'grimdark'-ness from the perspective of the 'everyman' stuck in the black hole of fethery that is the 40k setting.

Gaunt's Ghosts is a good "deep" series that keeps within the dark and desperate lore of the setting. Not sure I'd call it "deepest" mind you.

Well I am still plodding through the Horus Heresy Series and haven't read all of the 40k books, but the one that really hit me was:

Fifteen Hours

This has to be one of the most realistic, no heroics, slap I the face books I have ever read from Black Library. A young farm boy reminisces about how lucky and favoured his great grandfather was from retiring in the Guard/ (The truth is more gritty), as he prepares to be conscripted. Everything goes wrong from there on in due to the administratum and sods law. The veterans are dead, his friends are dead, forced to fight a losing war on the wrong planet with people who are so shell-shocked and blunted they no longer have personalities. The goal is to survive 15 hours against the orks with no skills, no friends and limited equipment. A deeply gripping book about the average forgotten people, from the over worked administratum worker, the boy, the soldier, to the governor war hero left to die on a forgotten planet. A must read, I recommend immensely.

 TheSGC wrote:
Steve Parker's Deathwatch.

For a book about the Deathwatch, the characters have a surprising amount of character. I can't really give examples of this (loaned out the book and never got it back), but I do remember the sheer amount of banter that took place between the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fist.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
Well I am still plodding through the Horus Heresy Series and haven't read all of the 40k books, but the one that really hit me was:

Fifteen Hours

This has to be one of the most realistic, no heroics, slap I the face books I have ever read from Black Library. A young farm boy reminisces about how lucky and favoured his great grandfather was from retiring in the Guard/ (The truth is more gritty), as he prepares to be conscripted. Everything goes wrong from there on in due to the administratum and sods law. The veterans are dead, his friends are dead, forced to fight a losing war on the wrong planet with people who are so shell-shocked and blunted they no longer have personalities. The goal is to survive 15 hours against the orks with no skills, no friends and limited equipment. A deeply gripping book about the average forgotten people, from the over worked administratum worker, the boy, the soldier, to the governor war hero left to die on a forgotten planet. A must read, I recommend immensely.

Just started reading this last night. Looks like a quick read, but I'm looking forward to it more now!

Maximus Bitch wrote:
40K's written franchise ranges from childish heroics meant to appeal to growing young boys to deep stories that question the nature of conflict and the universe.

What are the deepest 40k stories you've come across?

Talos' struggles with an abusive father, his wayward brothers, his own demons, and finding his place in the universe was pretty deep.

Night Lords Trilogy by ADB. Read it or die. It's that important.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Want deep? Read the last church.

That is easily my favorite of the short stories.