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I guess this year is going to be just like the last one. Oh joy.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I guess this year is going to be just like the last one. Oh joy.

Well, it was a stretch to pretend that all would be forgiven in the Middle East due to an arbitrary change of calendars.

Still, would have been nice to have a honeymoon period of at least a few days...as opposed to 75 minutes...

 General Annoyance wrote:
The Terrorists who call themselves Muslims/Christians/whatever are no longer really part of that religion

They are. Stop whitewashing religion.

Peropnsly, I think it's better to say that they are not representative of the religion (except the Amish, feth those guys ).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Peropnsly, I think it's better to say that they are not representative of the religion (except the Amish, feth those guys ).

What do you have against the Amish... as long as you consider them as speed bumps!*

*I keed, I keed... seriously... every Amish folks I've meet (at in Missouri) couldn't be nicer and interested in you.

They're good peeps.

EDIT: except, holy bey-jaysus.. Amish made furniture and stuff are expensive!!!!!

 whembly wrote:
What do you have against the Amish...

Rape, child abuse, horrible misogyny, all covered up by community leaders to keep up the good PR image and tourism money. Beneath the superficial appearance of "the good old days" is a rather nasty cult.

(Now, granted, not every Amish person is guilty of those offenses but the community as a whole has some very serious problems.)

Wow... you're eager to pounce there...

Okay... imma step back from that since this isn't the thread.

 whembly wrote:
Wow... you're eager to pounce there...

I'm tired of the Amish PR thing where we have to pretend they're all happy peaceful people living a simpler life that we should all envy. The myth needs to be corrected.

Okay... imma step back from that since this isn't the thread.

It really is, given previous conversation here. People seem to have the idea that Islam is a uniquely horrible religion and Muslims are somehow worse than members of other religions at doing horrible things. The reality is that most religions have their own horrible beliefs and horrible people associated with them, and the only real difference is how much we allocate the blame between the religion and things like war/poverty levels/etc, and how much we believe cultural stereotypes about "good" religions vs. "bad" religions.

 Peregrine wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Wow... you're eager to pounce there...

I'm tired of the Amish PR thing where we have to pretend they're all happy peaceful people living a simpler life that we should all envy. The myth needs to be corrected.

Okay... imma step back from that since this isn't the thread.

It really is, given previous conversation here. People seem to have the idea that Islam is a uniquely horrible religion and Muslims are somehow worse than members of other religions at doing horrible things. The reality is that most religions have their own horrible beliefs and horrible people associated with them, and the only real difference is how much we allocate the blame between the religion and things like war/poverty levels/etc, and how much we believe cultural stereotypes about "good" religions vs. "bad" religions.

I don't think anyone is discounting that there isn't bad apples in all religions...

There are extremists in all walks of life and in history.

I just think it's lunacy to ignore that Islam has a problem with Islamisms (the radical extremists) and that most of their victims (90+%) are other muslims.

There are plenty of great muslims groups and individuals doing all they can to denounce the extremisms that we read/hear/see in the media.

We should stop engaging in the whattaboutism game and start working with the moderate/peaceful muslims. I know we are, but more need to be done. One, to education the rest of us that hopefully reduce bigotry... and two, make it known to the likes of ISIS that they're in the wrong.

 whembly wrote:
I just think it's lunacy to ignore that Islam has a problem with Islamisms (the radical extremists) and that most of their victims (90+%) are other muslims.

See, this is exactly my point. When Muslims do something awful it's Islam at fault. When Christians do something like supporting the military targeting civilians (AKA "state sponsored terrorism") at a far higher rate than Muslims we don't blame Christianity for it. If we apply the same standard to Islam that we use for Christianity we find all kinds of explanations for things like ISIS that have far more to do with the general economic/government situation of the region than the particular religion involved.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And frankly it doesn't explain the huge number of attacks by Muslims against other Muslims in Islamic countries.

´Not like islam doesn't have different factions like christianity has oh no! Not like christians haven't been fighting with other christians over disagreements with beliefs oh no!

Good job at grouping huge number of people into same mold thus making problem worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:
In comparison though Islamic Extremism has resulted in 300,000 dead in Syria, in half that time frame. A country the size of Florida, with roughly the same population.

So how many people in Syria died in total? Because other parties including USA have resulted in deaths in Syria as well so if 300,000 is islamist extremists how many hundred thousands have died in total?

I'd think the Duterte thread would be enough to demonstrate that you don't have to be a particular religion to consider the use and threat of violence as a political tool.

Violence in the Middle East is better explained by political and economic factors than religious.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
They are. Stop whitewashing religion.

I'm not trying to - it just seems odd how people would still consider such inhumane people as part of a group that guides them to be a better person in the world. A lot of Muslims I know and have seen agree with that idea too.

In technicality they still are, but to still consider them as legitimate would be doing the religion a disservice; it's the reason we have Islamophobia in the first place. These people aren't truly driven by religion - it's a mixture of politics, hatred, and irrationality.

 General Annoyance wrote:
I'm not trying to - it just seems odd how people would still consider such inhumane people as part of a group that guides them to be a better person in the world.

Presenting religion as "a group that guides them to be a better person in the world" is whitewashing religion. Religion doesn't necessarily guide people to be better. Sometimes it guides them to be better, sometimes it guides them to horrifying evil, sometimes it just guides them to obedience to a god in a way that is morally neutral to the rest of the world. When you assume that people can't be a "true" member of a religion just because they do awful things you're whitewashing away all the bad things religion has been responsible for and insisting we only care about the good parts.

 Peregrine wrote:
Presenting religion as "a group that guides them to be a better person in the world" is whitewashing religion. Religion doesn't necessarily guide people to be better. Sometimes it guides them to be better, sometimes it guides them to horrifying evil, sometimes it just guides them to obedience to a god in a way that is morally neutral to the rest of the world. When you assume that people can't be a "true" member of a religion just because they do awful things you're whitewashing away all the bad things religion has been responsible for and insisting we only care about the good parts.

The Muslims that I have known over the past 9 years have mostly told me that they use Islam to guide them to improve, and that without it, they'd have no idea what they'd end up as. Obviously evil people use religion as a means of justifying their actions, but at that point, is it the religion to blame, or the person who most likely misinterpreted it?

Consider one of Christianity's 10 Commandments - "Thou Shalt Not Kill" - does disobedience of this still make you a Christian, and if so, why?

 General Annoyance wrote:
The Muslims that I have known over the past 9 years have mostly told me that they use Islam to guide them to improve, and that without it, they'd have no idea what they'd end up as. Obviously evil people use religion as a means of justifying their actions, but at that point, is it the religion to blame, or the person who most likely misinterpreted it?

Given that Islam (like other religions) explicitly says "do horrible things" alongside those commands to "do good things", yes, the religion does get blame. Not in all cases of course, and we can't ignore the other factors involved in things like war, but pretending that religion only does positive things is blatant whitewashing.

Consider one of Christianity's 10 Commandments - "Thou Shalt Not Kill" - does disobedience of this still make you a Christian, and if so, why?

Many Christians would argue that the actual commandment is "thou shalt not murder", and "kill" is too literal a translation of the word. IOW, killing for acceptable reasons is ok, killing for the wrong reasons is not. In fact, the bible even explicitly commands Christians to kill in certain cases. And recall the poll results from earlier in this thread: solid majorities of both Protestants and Catholics in the US believe that it's ok for the military to deliberately target civilians (AKA "state sponsored terrorism"). When your definition means that the majority of self-identified Christians in the US are not "true" Christians because they believe a bad thing it's a pretty clear sign you're whitewashing religion.

 Peregrine wrote:
Given that Islam (like other religions) explicitly says "do horrible things" alongside those commands to "do good things", yes, the religion does get blame. Not in all cases of course, and we can't ignore the other factors involved in things like war, but pretending that religion only does positive things is blatant whitewashing.

I would have thought that the bad things that came out of religion were more down to groups of followers misinterpreting the text that they believe says that the violence they are committing is justifiable. It has been a while since I read the Quran, and admittedly I did skim read it at times, but I didn't note anything that explicitly says that murdering innocents would ever be justified; the Quran does not shy away from war, but justifying terrorism, I did not see.

I'd be foolish to think that religion only does positive things and creates positive people - I've experienced first hand Muslims who are not good people, and Muslims who have said some really irrational things. Even so, I like to think that it's more the responsibility of the individual who has those beliefs rather than the religion they follow.

Many Christians would argue that the actual commandment is "thou shalt not murder", and "kill" is too literal a translation of the word. IOW, killing for acceptable reasons is ok, killing for the wrong reasons is not. In fact, the bible even explicitly commands Christians to kill in certain cases. And recall the poll results from earlier in this thread: solid majorities of both Protestants and Catholics in the US believe that it's ok for the military to deliberately target civilians (AKA "state sponsored terrorism"). When your definition means that the majority of self-identified Christians in the US are not "true" Christians because they believe a bad thing it's a pretty clear sign you're whitewashing religion.

That poll certainly is disturbing, but the problem with it is that the data does not have the qualitative evidence we need to conclude that religion is the primary factor in their belief; why do they think it's justified, and when? Does religion play any part in their belief in this, or is it more down to another variable, such as politics?

I'm tired of the Amish PR thing where we have to pretend they're all happy peaceful people living a simpler life that we should all envy. The myth needs to be corrected.

They are the enviro's wet dream and ultimate goal for the global warming crowd, but whatevs.

 Frazzled wrote:

I'm tired of the Amish PR thing where we have to pretend they're all happy peaceful people living a simpler life that we should all envy. The myth needs to be corrected.

They are the enviro's wet dream and ultimate goal for the global warming crowd, but whatevs.

Painting with a broad brush I see. That would be like me saying "All pro-gun users want to walk around like its the wild west with guns strapped to them and ready to challenge people to duels."

 Peregrine wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I just think it's lunacy to ignore that Islam has a problem with Islamisms (the radical extremists) and that most of their victims (90+%) are other muslims.

See, this is exactly my point. When Muslims do something awful it's Islam at fault. When Christians do something like supporting the military targeting civilians (AKA "state sponsored terrorism") at a far higher rate than Muslims we don't blame Christianity for it. If we apply the same standard to Islam that we use for Christianity we find all kinds of explanations for things like ISIS that have far more to do with the general economic/government situation of the region than the particular religion involved.

That's not what I said... but, go ahead and mischaracterize what I said.

 Vash108 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

I'm tired of the Amish PR thing where we have to pretend they're all happy peaceful people living a simpler life that we should all envy. The myth needs to be corrected.

They are the enviro's wet dream and ultimate goal for the global warming crowd, but whatevs.

Painting with a broad brush I see. That would be like me saying "All pro-gun users want to walk around like its the wild west with guns strapped to them and ready to challenge people to duels."

Wait we don't? (scratches head). I've had 37 whippy stick and plastic ruler duels this century alone.

I noticed you didn't actually disagree.
-nearly hydrocarbon free
-no energy
-no evilz chemicals.
-no GMO crops.

This is your dream.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

I'm tired of the Amish PR thing where we have to pretend they're all happy peaceful people living a simpler life that we should all envy. The myth needs to be corrected.

They are the enviro's wet dream and ultimate goal for the global warming crowd, but whatevs.

Painting with a broad brush I see. That would be like me saying "All pro-gun users want to walk around like its the wild west with guns strapped to them and ready to challenge people to duels."

Wait we don't? (scratches head). I've had 37 whippy stick and plastic ruler duels this century alone.

I noticed you didn't actually disagree.
-nearly hydrocarbon free
-no energy
-no evilz chemicals.
-no GMO crops.

This is your dream.

Yes that is totally what I want. To be back in the middle ages.
Sorry, I am a cornucopian that wants clean renewable energy.

Good luck with that.

 Frazzled wrote:
Good luck with that.

Thanks, it's already happening.

 Vash108 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Good luck with that.

Thanks, it's already happening.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

tneva82 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And frankly it doesn't explain the huge number of attacks by Muslims against other Muslims in Islamic countries.

´Not like islam doesn't have different factions like christianity has oh no! Not like christians haven't been fighting with other christians over disagreements with beliefs oh no!

Good job at grouping huge number of people into same mold thus making problem worse.

Thats a straw man. I don't have a high opinion of Christianity either, and I certainly don't pretend it doesn't have it's own problems with extremism. But Christianity isn't the topic of debate here. Christians did not bomb a nightclub in Turkey.

Like I said earlier, everytime a Muslim commits an act of terror in the name of Islam, or his own interpretation of Islam, people just shrug their shoulders and say "but Christianity". What-about-ism does nothing to address the fact that we've seen a several year long wave of Islamist terror attacks across Europe.


We've had somebody slagging off the Amish in this thread, saying things about them that are described as bigotry when they are said about Muslims. And yet nobody is calling him a bigot. Why? Because he's attacking Christians, not Muslims?

 Peregrine wrote:

 whembly wrote:
What do you have against the Amish...

Rape, child abuse, horrible misogyny, all covered up by community leaders to keep up the good PR image and tourism money. Beneath the superficial appearance of "the good old days" is a rather nasty cult.

(Now, granted, not every Amish person is guilty of those offenses but the community as a whole has some very serious problems.)

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Thats a straw man. I don't have a high opinion of Christianity either, and I certainly don't pretend it doesn't have it's own problems with extremism. But Christianity isn't the topic of debate here. Christians did not bomb a nightclub in Turkey.

They just bomb abortion clinics and get away with child rape.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Good luck with that.

Thanks, it's already happening.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Laugh all you want, I for one would like a better future. Sorry you don't give a feth about it.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Good luck with that.

Thanks, it's already happening.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What? It is. You can argue it's not available on a large scale, but saying it's not happening is just daft. Solar, Nuclear, Wind, Hydro, etc.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And frankly it doesn't explain the huge number of attacks by Muslims against other Muslims in Islamic countries.

´Not like islam doesn't have different factions like christianity has oh no! Not like christians haven't been fighting with other christians over disagreements with beliefs oh no!

Good job at grouping huge number of people into same mold thus making problem worse.

Thats a straw man. I don't have a high opinion of Christianity either, and I certainly don't pretend it doesn't have it's own problems with extremism. But Christianity isn't the topic of debate here. Christians did not bomb a nightclub in Turkey.

Like I said earlier, everytime a Muslim commits an act of terror in the name of Islam, or his own interpretation of Islam, people just shrug their shoulders and say "but Christianity". What-about-ism does nothing to address the fact that we've seen a several year long wave of Islamist terror attacks across Europe.

It happens everytime because there's always, without fail, someone blaming "immigrants" in general, people from the "wrong culture", or "them Arabs" etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam. There's never going to be a constructive debate on the issue as long as people keep blaming "Islam" as opposed to Jihadism or Wahhabism.