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 Casey's Law wrote:

evancich wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Yes, Ten got his stuff repainted, but that does not absolve BTP for failing to deliver on its contract. The repainting was a result of a tremendously good community, and Tenebre had to get to the point of lawyers and court work to settle the dispute with BTP. This is not a matter of 'vengeance', saying that undercuts what BTP has done and (why people do this I don't know) paints tenebre as the aggressor in this.

Also, why the hell did you trust BTP?

Chill out, guy.

Yeh curran, chill out. Why do you need to be so reasonable as to logically lay out a coherent response?


I can't even with this. If I didn't know they couldn't afford it then I'd be calling out BTP and/or Shaun Gately for paying these guys to white knight. It's pretty disgusting that anyone would want to paint Ten as the bad guy in this, their motives are lost on me.

His response was not logical. Because the USA court system, simply doesn't work that way. Source, engineer / lawyer in DC.

I'm not painting Ten in any light. I have a big axe to grind with Shawn.

I'm guessing Shawn likely got some legal advice to settle (I frankly don't care enough to dig thru lexisnexis to get the actual legal ground truth). If I were Shawn's lawyer (I am not), I assume Ten doesn't live in Utah (which is a difficult place for "outsiders" to litigate in), I'd tell him to settle under BTP or just get a bench decision. Either way, don't care. Fold up BTP LLC (or whatever it is called) and throw everything under some tax whatever (the IRS gets paid first) and walk away. Start BTP Inc (or whatever) and start from 0. And don't worry about the settlement / whatever.

The only winner in this are the lawyers. Most likely, Ten will pay more $ to enforce the judgement / settlement than he spent on getting the armies painted (which he was unhappy with BTP's performance). Ten apparently doesn't have the few thousands of dollars required to enforce the judgement. Depends on how serious each side was, since discovery can be wide open in civil cases. In other words, Shawn could have subpoenaed Ten's bank records and realized that Ten doesn't have the ability to fight a long legal battle in a state that he doesn't live in. Given that information, that would really drive how a good lawyer would fight this.

So, let's say Ten gets his GFM thing to cough up enough $ to enforce this and let's assume Shawn didn't play some game with shutting down BTP to avoid this judgement / settlement. If this is an agreement (aka not signed by a judge), then off to court to get Shawn held in contempt. This is at least one day of prep and one (maybe 2) days in court or about $2k to $3k. If they never actually went to court, this is a breach of contract, and they get to goto court, then Ten has to have the thing enforced or $5k to $6k. Either way, assuming Shawn ducks out on all of this, Ten has to go get "motion to enforce", which results in fines / jail time unless Shawn was smart enough to build BTP to protect himself from this, which is another day of prep and at least 1 day in court, or $2k.

Ten is somewhere in that process. He will need something like: $2k (already has a judge's signature), $4k (has agreement and needs contempt / enforcement), or $8k (he basically has nothing of legal value).

Ok, fine. Ten gets Shawn / BTP held in contempt and the whatever (judgement / settlement) enforced. Great. Does Shawn have the $XYZ (in cash) that Ten spent on the dwarves? Does Shawn have the $XYZ' that Ten spent in legal fees? So, if this isn't about vengeance / settling Shawn's hash, it is about getting Ten paid. Does anybody think that Shawn has around $20k sitting around in cash? Especially since Shawn just got divorced, had to move out of his studio, BTP isn't doing so hot, etc.

Again, what is the point? Ten has a settlement / judgement against BTP. Awesome, he won. The USA legal system doesn't really care and nobody will help Ten for free. So, in order to do anything with that judgement / settlement, Ten has to spend a bunch of money (money that he clearly does not have) to do what? Go get blood from a stone?

If a Judgement was passed, just petition the courts for force-ability from a marshal or Sheriff.
There was a time a certain bank attempted to hide from accountability, I beat them in court and when I had a hard time getting them to pay me (Though I admit, I refused any checks drawn from their bank LOL).
After some paperwork, and a marshals fee, we walked into a bank with their name on it ( I was escorted/escorting State Marshals and a Sheriff), with a court order, and simply took the cash from their vault. Well I believe the legal term was "Seized" the cash from their vault.
Blue mountain is a business, and has a business address, should be enough to at least look into to see if a Judge clears the order.

Further Edit, By no means is it a "bing bam,boom".. It takes some effort. Furthermore, I could be wrong but I believe if the judgement was entered prior to the divorce, The Ex wife assets can served as well. Exercise every option available to you. Also if the order is put through, you do not have to only seize cash, you should be able to seize anything of value to off set the debt. Anything seized will be recorded by the Sheriffs and they will monitor the sales transactions, to keep track of how much of the debt is considered fulfilled. Good Luck.

Tsilber wrote:
If a Judgement was passed, just petition the courts for force-ability from a marshal or Sheriff.
There was a time a certain bank attempted to hide from accountability, I beat them in court and when I had a hard time getting them to pay me (Though I admit, I refused any checks drawn from their bank LOL).
After some paperwork, and a marshals fee, we walked into a bank with their name on it ( I was escorted/escorting State Marshals and a Sheriff), with a court order, and simply took the cash from their vault. Well I believe the legal term was "Seized" the cash from their vault.
Blue mountain is a business, and has a business address, should be enough to at least look into to see if a Judge clears the order.

Further Edit, By no means is it a "bing bam,boom".. It takes some effort. Furthermore, I could be wrong but I believe if the judgement was entered prior to the divorce, The Ex wife assets can served as well. Exercise every option available to you. Also if the order is put through, you do not have to only seize cash, you should be able to seize anything of value to off set the debt. Anything seized will be recorded by the Sheriffs and they will monitor the sales transactions, to keep track of how much of the debt is considered fulfilled. Good Luck.

It doesn't work like that.

Ten will have to get somebody that is licensed to practice law in Utah. Or, Ten will have to fill out all of the forms, head to court house XYZ in Utah, turn them into the clerk, hope he got them right, wait, wait, wait, ... and nothing will happen because the Sheriff will try a few times and move on. Either way, somebody that understands Utah civil law will need to be in the courthouse and do the paperwork and likely explain it to a judge. This will cost money (hence the GFM) or Ten's time (and money he'll need to get to Utah). And, unless Ten knows how to make an emergency motion happen, he'll goto a scheduling conference and the judge might put the trial 4 to 6 months in the future, which is another trip to Utah and more time.

The point is I don't believe BTP has anything to "seize". BTP is working out of a different address. I'd be amazed if BTP had $20k sitting around in a bank. If the judgement / settlement was entered before the divorce, then (depending on the divorce settlement agreement) the ex-wife might be on the hook to Ten also. But, that really depends on how BTP was structured. Also, the term is forfeited. So, the seized property gets forfeited and sold (think auction), which takes time. In the great state of MD, all of the costs associated with the forfeiture get taken out of the $ generated. That is cops getting it, advertising the auction, court costs, etc. Therefore, if Shawn has a $5k asset, Ten will not see $5k from that asset.

What does BTP have for assets? I'd assume the painters are all subcontractors to BTP (aka not direct employees). I'm sure BTP has some "stuff" (brushes, air brushes, paints, etc) and maybe a laptop. At some point this is just throwing good money after bad.

Oh and another thing I forgot. Judges don't like people showing up in front of them. So, Shawn can say, "I owe Ten XYZ and I have XYZ - M. Your honor, may I settle for XYZ - M - N and we call this done?" And if the judge agrees, it is over and Ten might get almost nothing. In law, you almost never want to put fate in the hands of a judge. Think about it this way, Ten has been thinking about this for months and months (maybe years) and he will have less than 50% of the time of the trial to dump all of that to the judge and make his case. While Shawn (likely) has some sob story.

evancich wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
If a Judgement was passed, just petition the courts for force-ability from a marshal or Sheriff.
There was a time a certain bank attempted to hide from accountability, I beat them in court and when I had a hard time getting them to pay me (Though I admit, I refused any checks drawn from their bank LOL).
After some paperwork, and a marshals fee, we walked into a bank with their name on it ( I was escorted/escorting State Marshals and a Sheriff), with a court order, and simply took the cash from their vault. Well I believe the legal term was "Seized" the cash from their vault.
Blue mountain is a business, and has a business address, should be enough to at least look into to see if a Judge clears the order.

Further Edit, By no means is it a "bing bam,boom".. It takes some effort. Furthermore, I could be wrong but I believe if the judgement was entered prior to the divorce, The Ex wife assets can served as well. Exercise every option available to you. Also if the order is put through, you do not have to only seize cash, you should be able to seize anything of value to off set the debt. Anything seized will be recorded by the Sheriffs and they will monitor the sales transactions, to keep track of how much of the debt is considered fulfilled. Good Luck.

It doesn't work like that.

Ten will have to get somebody that is licensed to practice law in Utah. Or, Ten will have to fill out all of the forms, head to court house XYZ in Utah, turn them into the clerk, hope he got them right, wait, wait, wait, ... and nothing will happen because the Sheriff will try a few times and move on. Either way, somebody that understands Utah civil law will need to be in the courthouse and do the paperwork and likely explain it to a judge. This will cost money (hence the GFM) or Ten's time (and money he'll need to get to Utah). And, unless Ten knows how to make an emergency motion happen, he'll goto a scheduling conference and the judge might put the trial 4 to 6 months in the future, which is another trip to Utah and more time.

The point is I don't believe BTP has anything to "seize". BTP is working out of a different address. I'd be amazed if BTP had $20k sitting around in a bank. If the judgement / settlement was entered before the divorce, then (depending on the divorce settlement agreement) the ex-wife might be on the hook to Ten also. But, that really depends on how BTP was structured. Also, the term is forfeited. So, the seized property gets forfeited and sold (think auction), which takes time. In the great state of MD, all of the costs associated with the forfeiture get taken out of the $ generated. That is cops getting it, advertising the auction, court costs, etc. Therefore, if Shawn has a $5k asset, Ten will not see $5k from that asset.

What does BTP have for assets? I'd assume the painters are all subcontractors to BTP (aka not direct employees). I'm sure BTP has some "stuff" (brushes, air brushes, paints, etc) and maybe a laptop. At some point this is just throwing good money after bad.

Oh and another thing I forgot. Judges don't like people showing up in front of them. So, Shawn can say, "I owe Ten XYZ and I have XYZ - M. Your honor, may I settle for XYZ - M - N and we call this done?" And if the judge agrees, it is over and Ten might get almost nothing. In law, you almost never want to put fate in the hands of a judge. Think about it this way, Ten has been thinking about this for months and months (maybe years) and he will have less than 50% of the time of the trial to dump all of that to the judge and make his case. While Shawn (likely) has some sob story.

So sounds like we are both telling the same story, except you are creating ways of how it wont happen.. or it cant happen... In either case, it can happen and does happen, I did it myself. So try and fail with an X%/ probability of success, or do nothing and fail with 0% chance of success, up to Ten to decide. We also present different scenarios/terminology per state, but the argument of at least trying and failing holds merit IMO. Cheers.

 Casey's Law wrote:
I can't even with this. If I didn't know they couldn't afford it then I'd be calling out BTP and/or Shaun Gately for paying these guys to white knight. It's pretty disgusting that anyone would want to paint Ten as the bad guy in this, their motives are lost on me.

I agree. tenebre is NOT in the wrong here, although this post may shed some light on why people are jumping down his throat:

 swampyturtle wrote:

Spoiler:

 Casey's Law wrote:

 swampyturtle wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
No swampy.

If you had watched the video and followed through with everything, you'd know that they settled in court, and Gately has not been paying his agreed-upon settlement. And has, in fact, been intentionally hiding from being served.

Don't try to make them into the victims here.

I was there from the beginning. I was there for all of it. I agree Gately is in the wrong. Im just saying asking for more money at this point is leaving a bad taste in MY mouth. Gately is in the wrong and if he is hiding then the law should handle it. Take it or leave it. Its just my 2 cents Curran12.

As I recall, Ten had all but given up because he couldn't afford to chase this any more. It was the community that asked him to put up a go fund me page because people want to see justice served. It also serves us all by setting a precedent against this happening to anyone else.

The only way to handle this is to pay a lawyer to go through the necessary processes to make BTP pay. That costs a lot of money and some concerned individuals are willing to put something towards it.


I don't know what's wrong with some people that want to make Ten appear to be at fault here. If you don't want to help and are desperate to hear yourself speak then you can always wish him the best of luck and move on with your life. Being negative on Ten doesn't help anyone apart from BTP.

Fair enough. I put alot of time and emotion into the first time around.This time Im not. Never said Ten was at fault. Never felt Ten was at fault. If you want me to disappear however I will.

People are emotionally exhausted from having to witness other people struggle. Its a bummer, you know? Sitting back and watching people sink time, money, and effort into sticking up for themselves against unscrupulous businesses. I mean, 63 pages of posts = a ton of emotion spent! tenebre should be considerate of the voyeuristic nature of internet and only start fights that can have a satisfying conclusion. Really, tenebre is the ass here, right guys?

Tsilber wrote:


So sounds like we are both telling the same story, except you are creating ways of how it wont happen.. or it cant happen... In either case, it can happen and does happen, I did it myself. So try and fail with an X%/ probability of success, or do nothing and fail with 0% chance of success, up to Ten to decide. We also present different scenarios/terminology per state, but the argument of at least trying and failing holds merit IMO. Cheers.

Right, so here is the problem with your scenario wrt Ten. Ten is asking people to pay for a lawyer. You filled out the paperwork and did the legal work yourself. These are 2 very different things with 2 very different cost associated with them.

Again, Ten has dwarves that he is now happy with, he has some paper saying that he "won", Shawn got publicly shamed. And has to avoid this judgement / settlement (shows up on credit reports, has to disclose it to banks for loans, etc. Generally, make life more difficult than just paying the stupid thing, especially since this is a relative small amount of $).

And, SHOCKING, Shawn ducks out of a judgement / settlement against him?!? No way! That's an Agatha Christie level twist right there...

Likely, BTP has nothing near the level of value required to pay Ten. Any lawyer worth their salt, will ask for discovery and I'm certain BTP will come back with very few assets. This will go in front of a judge and Shawn will ask for relief. And likely the judge won't nuke Shawn into 0.

So, again, what's the point? For Ten, he is getting his vengeance funded and I'm pretty sure this will cost much more than the GFM suggests. Shawn may or may not get nuked, either way, I doubt this is the last we will hear from Shawn running a painting service.

Maybe a better use of the community's resources would be an anti-BTP ad on google. That assumes that we all want people to not use BTP in the future.

If we want Ten to get his money back, well the easy thing is get Ten to have a lawyer do discovery on the finicals of BTP with a 30-day suspense. Ten posts (what he can) up on GFM and everybody decides for themselves if there is blood in the BTP stone.

If we want Ten to get his money back, well the easy thing is get Ten to have a lawyer do discovery on the finicals of BTP with a 30-day suspense. Ten posts (what he can) up on GFM and everybody decides for themselves if there is blood in the BTP stone.

Right, and how is he going to do that without funds to pay them?

evancich wrote:
At some point this is just throwing good money after bad.

Sadly I kinda have to agree. I think the best thing to do at this point is just try to educate people, tell them why BTP is a horrible service and hope to convince them not to spend their money there.

Of course people won't always listen, but that's on them I guess.

I'd like to hear what Ten has to say about it, since he has the actual facts of the matter first hand. I'm sure he's emotionally spent but I'd appreciate his input re this discussion.

I also have a question. If BTP aren't paying up as agreed then does that mean Ten can post those videos all over the place now? Surely he is unbound by that restriction if they refuse to hold up their own end?

Clearly BTP have something as this guy who loves them keeps giving them money

 Casey's Law wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
I think it is time just to drop it honestly. If the guy is living in his shop and divorced he has nothing to give. At this point karma might come back and bite you in the arse. What happens sucks but beating a dead horse gets ya no where.

Suggesting that Tenebre will incur some magical wrath upon himself by seeking his dues is silly. He's doing nothing wrong, he's completely in the right as a victim seeking restitution. Shaun Gately has plenty to give and not only should he do so legally but also morally. Just because he's possibly not having happy fun times doesn't mean he gets to shirk his debts and responsibilities. If I was to rob someone's home today and receive an unrelated assault tomorrow then I wouldn't expect to go on my merry way without repercussion of my actions. We don't live in a magical fantasy world where supernatural powers decide our fortunes.

OgreChubbs wrote:
It is kinda one of the risks you face letting someone do this type of stuff. It is one of those artistic things, everyone has their own point of view. It sucks but it is a risk.

Actually it's not just a matter of opinion or a point of view. He was legally wronged as proven by the decision of the court. He is entitled to his restitution by law.

Wait. Shawn is Divorced and lives in his shop now? Damn. Guy realy fallen on hard times. He should realy just pack up his bags and stop being a blight on this community. Commission painting just isn't his line of work.

I agree with Casey. My 2 cents is that if he would of just kept paying or atleast contacted the court about issues paying and made arrangements Tenebre would not have had to be pushed to consider seizure of property. You know. Be responsible.

Nah, Shawn not holding up his end of the whatever doesn't absolve Ten of his side.

So, no he can't post the videos, sadly

 swampyturtle wrote:
After some time you reach a agreement and have to take down the videos as part of the agreement

Two years pass:

My understanding was that the videos weren't taken down as part of an agreement but rather that when Ten decided to start taking legal action he was advised by his lawyers to go quiet on the matter and make the videos private to avoid having them (or idiots like us making stupid comments) inadvertently influencing the case.

And "Two years pass", my understanding isn't that time was just passing, my understanding was that Shawn kept doing his best to delay things with the hope of Ten giving up on it.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but that was my understanding.

Now your asking for more money because BTP hasnt come through on their end of the deal.

Unfortunately it's how the legal system works.

I think Ten's problem with asking for money isn't that he's asking for money but rather hasn't outlined clearly why he's asking for money and whether $1000 is realistically going to get him anywhere. People who have followed the case since 2 years ago might already know, but someone viewing the gofundme page for the first time or just after viewing a thread like this isn't really going to understand the background sufficiently to want to give money.

I personally won't be donating for two reasons, one being as much as I feel sorry for Ten, there's other things I'll give my money to first and secondly I'm not convinced $1000 is going to fix his problems and I'd hate to see the community donate $1000 and a year later nothing has progressed. I don't feel like giving money just to line a lawyer's pockets.

I watched the GFM video again and with a critical eye this time around.

35'ish to 50'ish, Ten talks about Shawn delaying, which is smart and totally the "right" thing to do when you get sued from out of state. Which means to me (as a lawyer) that Shawn has good legal advice or had it in the past.

At 1:20, Ten says Shawn agrees to a settlement before going to court. This means that they don't have a judgement. And, Shawn ran the clock out as long as he could.

1:40, Shawn pays off the initial lawyer fees and stops paying. Again, this is "smart".

1:55'ish, Ten goes after Shawn via enforcement of judgement. He's mixing terms here, which is understandable since Ten isn't a lawyer. But, unfortunately, this term is very important. If this is really an "enforcement of judgement" that means some other legal thing happened between the settlement, Shawn paying, Shawn stopping paying, and this. Which is really too bad since Ten blah, blah, blah'ed the lobster bisque. Shawn ducks out on it. Not clear if Ten actually got a judge to rule on it, which is what really matters here.

Ok, so from a legal PoV, what does all of this mean?

Ten has a settlement, which as he found out, doesn't mean that much. But, hey, he "won"! Congrats!

Ten attempted to enforce it. Shawn ducked out on the enforcement. Which Ten finds out that the people doing the enforcement give up on after awhile. I'm guessing the county Shawn lives in, I'm guessing people all know each other and maybe Shawn got a heads up to not be somewhere at a certain time...But, just an unfounded guess.

The process serving is just lol, no. Do it via certified mail. If that doesn't work, leave it at home or business via a competent adult. If that doesn't work, ask a judge to let you take out an ad in a newspaper or have a cop staple it to Shawn's door.

Ten's situation isn't awesome. Here is what he needs to do to get Shawn to pay:
1) Figure out BTP assets
a) Lawyer writes a motion to subpoena BTP's bank records and tax returns and credit cards and loans and ... 2 hours to write the document
b) Lawyer will need to take this to the court house and maybe explain it to a judge. 4 hours
c) Lawyer will get this info back. Review it. Just a guess, but I'd assume Shawn doesn't keep clean books. 8 hours
d) Talk with Ten to come up with a plan. 1 hour

2) Go get the assets
a) Lawyer writes another motion, asking for XYZ assets. Let's assume no cash. 2 hours
b) Lawyer will need to take this to the court house and maybe explain it to a judge. 4 hours
c) If Shawn is smart, he'll appear in court with a lawyer and show why he can't pay. 8 hours

d) Now Ten isn't paying. Cops go get assets. Setup auction. Do auction. State drinks from the milkshake first. What is left, goes to Ten.

21 hours to 25 hours of a lawyer's time. That's assuming easy path. Double or triple if Shawn can play the system.

I'd guess Ten needs around $6k to make this happen, if Shawn is "easy".

Oh and there is a non-zero chance that Ten isn't the only BTP creditor. So, that gets complex very quickly. If I was Shawn's lawyer, let's assume no real assets. I'd let Ten do his thing and waste a bunch of money on that side of the fence (because why shouldn't some lawyer in Utah get paid over this mess? And make 100% Ten doesn't have the money to do anything in the future), let the judgement come in, show that BTP doesn't have any real assets. Then very quickly, before Ten has any more money or another GFM thing, do bankruptcy and do it quick before Ten can scrape together the $ to do adversary proceeding.

So, poof! Ten wasted a bunch of money and time and his ability to do anything about this in the future is barred. And BTP re-forms under BTP 2.0 with no debts.

Evancich, that is a really great post!

I've thought about this a lot, and I really think the time has come to just let it go. At some point, you have to cut your losses. Frontline stepped up to the plate, and so in the end, the chaos dwarfs were completed to a good standard, and the result is great!

It's a shame BTP dodged paying, but they certainly suffered as a result of the publicity of this badly done commission, so if the objective was for them to "pay"... in a sense, they have already. It doesn't make it OK for them to dodge refunding this army, but since Frontline essentially finished it pro bono, I think in the end it came out in the positive for him.

So, despite the community maybe wanting to see more punishment for BTP, if I were the OP I'd move on at this point... just not worth the continuing legal hassle when it's clear BTP might just declare bankruptcy at any time, anyway (as Evancich described in a much better, more lawer-ly way ).

I see where you're coming from. I sort of agree, I'm kind of on the fence about it I guess. I really want to hear from Ten how accurate all this is, it's basically all conjecture because we don't have the facts to support any of this. For all we know Ten knows a lawyer who's willing to see the whole thing through for a grand. Unlikely but we just don't know.

For me the point of continuing is that although Frontline were awesome enough to fix the minis free of charge they said themselves that they wouldn't be as good as if they had done the whole job from the start. They did a stunning repair but it was a repair and at the end of the day Ten never got what he paid BTP for. I also feel, as we all surely do, that BTP should fully repay what they promised.

I'm not being mindlessly zealous here, if the costs are counter intuitive then it's got to be laid to rest, no argument. I just want to know if that's really the case and only Ten can tell us that. We can spit legalese back and forth 'til the cows come home and it won't change the fact that a lot of this is conjecture an therefore pointless.

tigerstyle wrote:
Clearly BTP have something as this guy who loves them keeps giving them money

Possibly what they have is an idiot that loves them and keeps giving them money?

The Auld Grump

 Casey's Law wrote:
I see where you're coming from. I sort of agree, I'm kind of on the fence about it I guess. I really want to hear from Ten how accurate all this is, it's basically all conjecture because we don't have the facts to support any of this. For all we know Ten knows a lawyer who's willing to see the whole thing through for a grand. Unlikely but we just don't know.

For me the point of continuing is that although Frontline were awesome enough to fix the minis free of charge they said themselves that they wouldn't be as good as if they had done the whole job from the start. They did a stunning repair but it was a repair and at the end of the day Ten never got what he paid BTP for. I also feel, as we all surely do, that BTP should fully repay what they promised.

I'm not being mindlessly zealous here, if the costs are counter intuitive then it's got to be laid to rest, no argument. I just want to know if that's really the case and only Ten can tell us that. We can spit legalese back and forth 'til the cows come home and it won't change the fact that a lot of this is conjecture an therefore pointless.

Yeah...this isn't "conjecture". I know how civil law works and if you understand civil law and watch Ten's video...

"...BTP should fully repay what they promised." Did you read any of the previous posts or watch Ten's GFM video? If so, I'm not sure how you'd type that. Ten is attempting to get BTP to pay. BTP is using legal (and not legal) tricks to avoid paying (I'm guessing because Shawn doesn't have the $ sitting around). Ten doesn't have the money to enforce the settlement / judgement and hence GFM. BTP will not pay Ten anymore $ with Ten using the state of Utah to force Shawn to pay. We have like 2 pages of posts on this very subject and Ten made a long video about it. I guess all of that was tl;dr for you?

It isn't pointless. Many people here (I'm guessing you are part of that group) don't understand how the law works in the USA. I'm guessing many people think, "Oh, Ten won the law suit and BTP will pay him". Nope, 100% wrong. A judgement / settlement is only worth what the enforcement is. Ten doesn't have the $ to do the enforcement. And the state of Utah doesn't care anymore. And Shawn is ducking out.

Therefore, people that want to help Ten and/or hold Shawn's feet to the fire should at the very least understand what the process of settlement -> judgement -> enforcement -> $$$ is. And, where this case is in that process. Additionally, if they get in front of a judge, the judge might just say, "Ok, I'm not gonna nuke BTP and this settlement is over. " Ten doesn't get anymore $ and Shawn walks away. People putting $ into the GFM should understand that this is a possibility. Always avoid appearing in front of a judge.

If Shawn is smart / has good legal advice, just push everything to the right. Ten doesn't live in Utah (so, he has to go there {$} or pay somebody {$$}) and just drain whatever the GFM generates, which won't take much time. And let this die out.

If Ten is smart and really wants to mess with BTP, assuming he has a judgement and some enforcement ruling, he should sell it to a collection agency. Sure, he might only get a little back, but they certainly will go after BTP, especially since all the legal stuff is done and they are experts at getting blood from a stone. And, frankly that will have a lot of lulz.

I think your last paragraph is an excellent point!! What is the possibility of using a collection agency? It wouldn't get you AS much back, since they'll want their cut, but it'll be something far more concrete!

Selling to a collection agency sounds like a brilliant idea!

Even a smaller percentage is worth more than nothing.

Whatever you say. If your in the wrong. Your in the wrong and you have to pay the debt associated with that.

Wait, does he actually have a court judgement or was it just an out of court settlement? IIRC someone mentioned it was the latter earlier ITT.

We don't know.

Ten says settlement right before the court date in the video then when BTP stops paying, he mixes his legal terms.

evancich wrote:
We don't know.

Ten says settlement right before the court date in the video then when BTP stops paying, he mixes his legal terms.

I honestly don't think that he, or I, for that matter, really gives one whit for using the correct legal term.

The court told BTP to pay money.

BTP is not paying that money.

Really, that is all the message needed.

BTP is run by a crook - this is not a legal term, but it is one that is easy to understand.

The Auld Grump, sheesh....

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I honestly don't think that he, or I, for that matter, really gives one whit for using the correct legal term.

We should. Distinctions in legal terms are kinda crucial in Court cases after all.

The court told BTP to pay money.

BTP is not paying that money.

But did it, though? If they agreed to settle out of Court in return for Tenebre dropping the lawsuit, then obviously the Court did not order BTP to pay.

Really, that is all the message needed.

BTP is run by a crook - this is not a legal term, but it is one that is easy to understand.

The Auld Grump, sheesh....

Well no gak. Nobody is disputing that. I support Tenebre all the way, do you think I'm somehow defending BTP or criticising Tenebre here?

I'm just asking for someone to clarify whether Tenebre actually pursued the case all the way to the end, won the case and a Court Judgement against BTP, or did he drop the case and settle out of Court? I'm getting mixed messages from this thread.

IANAL but I'd imagine that "settling out of court" still involves signed and legally ratified agreements that carry stipulations as to what happens in the case of either party failing to uphold its end.

So, while Tenebre may well not have a judgment in his favor, I'm sure he has something that is legally enforceable.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I honestly don't think that he, or I, for that matter, really gives one whit for using the correct legal term.

.....

BTP is not paying that money.

Maybe from a moral stand point that's fine.... but now that Ten has started a GFM page having the correct legal terminology is important for the sake of transparency to people who might consider contributing.

BTP should pay, BTP aren't paying, cool, I agree. But guess what? They're going to continue to not pay and when it comes to the process of getting BTP to pay the correct legal terms are pretty bloody important.

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I'm not yet convinced that $1000 is going to be enough and evancich's posts don't encourage me that throwing $1000 at the problem is going to fix it things like a lack of proper terminology doesn't instil faith that that it will either.

The last think I want to see is a message saying "Hey guys, thanks for the $1000, unfortunately Shawn just evaded it again and now I'm out of money again, but at least my lawyer is $1000 richer".

evancich wrote:
Yeah...this isn't "conjecture".

Except it is, or do you not understand the difference between conjecture and fact? Just looking back at your previous posts you've consistently guessed at things only Ten could tell us directly and then applied it as factual details of the situation. I'm going to stop reading this thread now and let you spin your personal fiction until we actually get some facts to deal with.

Oh and I don't appreciate the snide comments in your previous reply but I'll let it slide.

 Casey's Law wrote:

evancich wrote:
Yeah...this isn't "conjecture".

Except it is, or do you not understand the difference between conjecture and fact? Just looking back at your previous posts you've consistently guessed at things only Ten could tell us directly and then applied it as factual details of the situation. I'm going to stop reading this thread now and let you spin your personal fiction until we actually get some facts to deal with.

Oh and I don't appreciate the snide comments in your previous reply but I'll let it slide.

Except it isn't...It is pretty clear you are ignorant of how USA civil law works.

I laid out what happens at the 3 different scenarios that Ten could be in right now and how those legally play out in the USA. The problem is Ten mixes up his legal terminology and the term he mixes up is kind of the most important one. This isn't a "give me $1k and 100%, totally sans fail that I'll get my money back and punish BTP." In the USA, the law just simply doesn't work that way.

From a legal PoV, BTP is doing everything "right". Ten can get all of the judgements against BTP and if he doesn't have the further $ needed to enforce those judgements, it really doesn't matter. If BTP doesn't have any real assets, the enforcement doesn't really matter. Those are the realities of the situation. How do we know this? Well, exhibit A is Ten's GFM page where he asks for $ for his legal woes. Aka he doesn't have the $ for enforcement and learned the hard way why enforcement matters. Exhibit B, are the many, many troubles BTP has had (moving out of the studio, loss of painters, discounts, etc). Which you might have been clued into some of this, if I don't know, you actually read the posts here and the other thread.

I suggest you go watch Ten's GFM video. Your posts might actually add something to the discussion if you did that.

Haha, okay one last time.

I'm not claiming any extensive knowledge of US politics. I'm just pointing out that while you may know a few things, a lot of what your saying is based on guesses about circumstances because we don't have the facts to support it. If you can't understand that it's a real shame but I can't dumb it down any more.

Any for the very last time... Stop being snide and condescending, it's obvious you're just trying to bait out a negative reaction and that makes you look like a fool. I'm warning you for your own good, grow up.