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Weapons AP 5 and worse have no business wrecking tanks. That's why I picked 4+ armor.

Martel732 wrote:
Weapons AP 5 and worse have no business wrecking tanks. That's why I picked 4+ armor.

OH OK, so even if it was S8? or S9? What About Armorbane without an AP? Or Haywire? How about Melee units without AP like Grotesques with S5 and sometimes S6 should they not be able hurt them?

I understand why you picked 4+ save, but again it doesnt solve the problem it just make new ones.

Since when is 4+ armor invincible? It makes your grotesques and haywire half as effective. Find me some S8 AP5 or 6 as well.

Martel732 wrote:
Since when is 4+ armor invincible? It makes your grotesques and haywire half as effective. Find me some S8 AP5 or 6 as well.

Skullcannon of Khorne.

Sorry about your luck, Khorne. We'll errata it to AP 4.

Some DE Missiles are High Strength AP- or AP5 as well

You are just hurting already bad armies with proposal and Armies like Eldar, SM and Tau will just swap a couple units out and see no difference.

Edit: And you are Making MC inadvertently stronger b.c of Smash AP2 rule. The 10 Walker Mech KDK armor might even be tier 1 strong. Or Invis vehicles Squads too, Now I have a unit of 3 Warp Hunters with Invis and a 4+ save. How can you deal with that?

The problem is Imperial vehicles are just over costed (Out side of a few). Why take a 160pt tank with AV 12 that shoots at 1 thing a turn with a signal Large blast? Whwn you can just have a Bike Squad of Plasma with a 3+ rerolling jink, or Bike Squad with Scout, grav and with a IC that will ignore cover.

Its just poor balance of unit types.

This definitely hurts Eldar and Tau. To claim otherwise is nuts.

Martel732 wrote:
This definitely hurts Eldar and Tau. To claim otherwise is nuts.

Eldar has Warp Hunters, Hornets and other means that are all already in Tournaments and high end play, Warp Hunters already do a lot of damage to vehicles, Hornets are A4 S8/Ap2,
Now with Ynnari you can Archon WWP Fire Dragons, Kill 1 vehicle and get to shoot another.


I said they would swap a couple things, they would still be top tier armies.

You are hurting armies that already have trouple just to buff 1-2 armies from low tier to a mid "ish" tier.

Well, something must be done about the lascannon being inferior to the scatterlaser against a lot of vehicular targets. Single shot weapons are basically pure trash in 7th ed unless they are D.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, something must be done about the lascannon being inferior to the scatterlaser against a lot of vehicular targets. Single shot weapons are basically pure trash in 7th ed unless they are D.

The proble is Eldar can take 1 Scatter/Shuriken on EACH BIKE. Thats the problem with scatterbikes.

Lascannons problems are single shot without Tl for high cost. But Scatter cant hurt AV13.

If you are spamming Rhino Chassis *cough cough 35pts* yes a 81pts unit has a good chance to stop it.

IMO some vehicles like the 100pts+ ones just need to have 1pt better Front armor. this is a better fix.

" But Scatter cant hurt AV13. "

Who cares? Most AV 13 is overcosted garbage.

Predators: ovecosted
IKs: overcosted
Sicaran: overcosted

Scatterbikes also have a tendency to get on the side, where AV 13 is super rare. But there's the Russ. Oh wait, overcosted.

Vehicles are gonna need side armor too. Because scatbikes.

Martel732 wrote:
" But Scatter cant hurt AV13. "

Who cares? Most AV 13 is overcosted garbage.

Predators: ovecosted
IKs: overcosted
Sicaran: overcosted

Scatterbikes also have a tendency to get on the side, where AV 13 is super rare. But there's the Russ. Oh wait, overcosted.

Vehicles are gonna need side armor too. Because scatbikes.

Not all are, just for SM and again go re-read other things I was saying that most tanks are overcosted.

I'd rahter see decrease in points than buffs that will out balance the game in different ways.

Getting cheaper is always viable if we are leaving them weak to S6/7 spam.

I'm not sure whether *paid for* Rhinos or Trukks are going to get any cheaper, or ought to! I even feel the Chimera is not too far from fairly costed, and 5-10 points would be a good, fair price reduction, but anything further would be too much. Of course, I'm not necessarily for everything getting cheaper, as games will get more Apocalypse-y in smaller and smaller games.

That said, I wouldn't mind a universal 4+ or a range from 5+ to 3+ armor saves on vehicles. I've had a Chimera take *4* hull points from 3 rapid-firing Fire Warriors for total overkill... So since then the notion of small arms fire destroying tanks has left a slightly bad taste in my mouth... With the suggested rules, AT weapons like Meltas and lascannons remain as effective as they already have been, but it'll be a bit tougher for anti-personnel type weapons from punching through tank hulls...