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I can't see the link so I'm asking: are only special characters allowed as HQs? If the answer is yes it means that orks must have one of the following characters: badruk, grotsnik and zagstruk.

I'd really like to see some orks lists then, they should be extremely cool I've always been a huge fan of mad dok.

Does "formations" include Force Org Charts?
If not I've got a tournament list that's got a single -1 penalty under these rules.
Damned shame Lukas the Trickster still blows chunks though.

This sounds like a lot of fun - I am going to try to get a few folks at the local GW to buy into this, possibly start a league.

A few things I'd change:

For Craftworld Eldar, I would allow a Spiritseer (max=1) so long as the army includes at least one Wraith unit. I would also consider allowing an Autarch as an HQ, but disallow the windrider jetbike upgrade for him. As another poster mentioned, Swooping Hawks are fine, just make them Max=1 with max 5 models per army.

For Dark Eldar/Harlequins, I would like to add the Visarch as an additional HQ. This would allow you to field an Ynnari army, but it wouldn't be all that bad without access to all the CWE units that make those lists so nasty. The Visarch is a good fighter, too, but he is very costly for what you get. I think he could be very good here, though.

Harlequins should also have access to Starweavers as dedicated transports, maybe with a Max=3 per army. In addition, Skyweaver jetbikes should be permitted - they are very expensive points-wise for what you get. Finally, Death Jesters should be allowed.

Deathwatch should get their own list, just like Space Wolves and BA. Maybe with the Watch Master and Chaplain Cassius as the sole HQs.

Tyranids should have the Warrior Prime as an alternative HQ. The Prime is absolutely the worst HQ Nids have, but he might be playable here due to the lack of quality synapse creatures. Finally, Tyranids should have the option of taking regular Spore Mines in the FA slot - not sure why they aren't here.

For Genestealer Cult, I would consider whether any of the named special characters from Deathwatch Overkill are appropriate for inclusion. Magus Orthan Trysst, in particular, seems like a good choice (it seems to me the ordinary Magus is excluded because he can summon more units, but Orthan Trysst doesn't have access to the Broodmind discipline and thus can't summon).

 Blackie wrote:
I can't see the link so I'm asking: are only special characters allowed as HQs? If the answer is yes it means that orks must have one of the following characters: badruk, grotsnik and zagstruk.

I'd really like to see some orks lists then, they should be extremely cool I've always been a huge fan of mad dok.

It's mostly named hq. But some armies like gsc, skiitari, daemons and a couple others have a limited access to generic HQ with restricted gear.

Here are ork restrictions:


Orks can have a pretty viable speed freak list with a couple trukks, a battlewagon/bikers/nob bikers or stormboyz. Kommandoes, naughts and flash gitz are all (+1) to balance things out. I'm still not sure about the walker wall effectiveness - even with such heavy restrictions as others still have lazcannons and meltas. But not in such amounts to make them unplayable like in regular 40k. And all the meltas and grav, which is also restricted to max 10 shots per army and doesn't immobilize vehicles, has very limited mobility, so ork walkers might even be ok - still not as good as marine or csm walkers but still. You can easilly run a naught, a bunch of kans and a dread supported by some trukkboyz or footslogging boyz or even specialists like kommandoes, burnas, gits, a couple planes, buggies...

Footslogging mellee is still kinda messed up cause it's still 7-th edition but you can have a semi-horde in the middle of the map which is not that easy to remove with such limited firepower that others have. Oh, and shootaboyz are totally worth it here.

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 Asmodas wrote:
This sounds like a lot of fun - I am going to try to get a few folks at the local GW to buy into this, possibly start a league.

A few things I'd change:

For Craftworld Eldar, I would allow a Spiritseer (max=1) so long as the army includes at least one Wraith unit. I would also consider allowing an Autarch as an HQ, but disallow the windrider jetbike upgrade for him. As another poster mentioned, Swooping Hawks are fine, just make them Max=1 with max 5 models per army.

For Dark Eldar/Harlequins, I would like to add the Visarch as an additional HQ. This would allow you to field an Ynnari army, but it wouldn't be all that bad without access to all the CWE units that make those lists so nasty. The Visarch is a good fighter, too, but he is very costly for what you get. I think he could be very good here, though.

Harlequins should also have access to Starweavers as dedicated transports, maybe with a Max=3 per army. In addition, Skyweaver jetbikes should be permitted - they are very expensive points-wise for what you get. Finally, Death Jesters should be allowed.

Deathwatch should get their own list, just like Space Wolves and BA. Maybe with the Watch Master and Chaplain Cassius as the sole HQs.

Tyranids should have the Warrior Prime as an alternative HQ. The Prime is absolutely the worst HQ Nids have, but he might be playable here due to the lack of quality synapse creatures. Finally, Tyranids should have the option of taking regular Spore Mines in the FA slot - not sure why they aren't here.

For Genestealer Cult, I would consider whether any of the named special characters from Deathwatch Overkill are appropriate for inclusion. Magus Orthan Trysst, in particular, seems like a good choice (it seems to me the ordinary Magus is excluded because he can summon more units, but Orthan Trysst doesn't have access to the Broodmind discipline and thus can't summon).

Seems good. Yeah, there should be some limited stuff added there. But it's hard to not go overboard.


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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Does "formations" include Force Org Charts?
If not I've got a tournament list that's got a single -1 penalty under these rules.
Damned shame Lukas the Trickster still blows chunks though.

Only CADs allowed there. If that's what you mean.

Looks a lot like the tiering system of Smogon's competitive Pokemon leagues. More specifically, the UU environment. Which is pretty good, because with the way GW 'balances' things, this is the only real way I could see 40k competitive play ever really thrive.

Ban specific units to 'Ubers' (basically the pokemon equivalent to Apocalypse).

Run a mostly reasonable and not overly centralized 'standard' league (OU/Overused).

And then impose more restrictions based on that standard league for (UU/Underused) play and lower leagues.

 koooaei wrote:

Seems good. Yeah, there should be some limited stuff added there. But it's hard to not go overboard.

I know what you mean. I am probably going to try the format with minimal changes before tinkering with it too much. Maybe just allow Spore Mines and keep the rest of it as is.

I also think the limitation of 2 synapse creatures or take a 1 VP penalty is a little unnecessary. The synapse creatures available are not that great, and the penalty discourages the use of Tyranid Warriors and Shrikes, both of which you would think the format would want to encourage, as they are rarely-seen models. I will probably test the existing rules set out first, but it might be worth considering increasing the number allowable without a penalty to 3 units if it seems like Nids struggle too much with only 2 synapse creatures on the board.

Here's a list for Tyranids I would like to try:

1000 points

Deathleaper

Rippers x3 (deep strike)
Tyranid Warriors x3 (1 barbed strangler, 2 devs)

Lictor
Lictor
Lictor

Spore Mines x3
Spore Mines x4
Spore Mines x4

Trygon Prime (adrenal glands)
Tyrannofex (acid spray, e-grubs, adrenal glands)
- in a Tyrannocyte

I would null deploy except for the Warriors and the Spore Mines, which would hide. Everything else deep strikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I played a game with these restrictions today. I used the tyranid list set forth above. My opponent ran an Eldar list that was basically Jain Zar, a unit of banshees as her bodyguard, a unit of Guardians in a wave serpent, a single vyper with bright lance, a unit of rangers, five wraithblades with axes and two war walkers. The game was close but Tyranids edged out a win by 1 VP. The -2 VP penalty my opponent had for fielding Jain Zar and the war walkers ended up being decisive.

This was one of the most fun games I have played with my Nids in years. The Tyrannofex and the Trygon were both very good in this environment. The game ended in a massive brawl where Jain Zar charged and killed Deathleaper in a challenge, only to find her and her escort exposed to the T-Fex's acid spray, which vaporized her banshee buddies and left her vulnerable to being charged by the T-Fex, the Trugon and one of the Lictors. She went down after 2 rounds of valiant fighting.

The thing I like most about this format is it makes me excited about list building again. I got bored of Nids after all of my lists started with Flyrant x2 every time, but this feels really fresh and I don't feel like I am hobbling myself by using fun units like the T Fex and Trygon prime that are generally considered sub par.

 Asmodas wrote:

I played a game with these restrictions today. I used the tyranid list set forth above. My opponent ran an Eldar list that was basically Jain Zar, a unit of banshees as her bodyguard, a unit of Guardians in a wave serpent, a single vyper with bright lance, a unit of rangers, five wraithblades with axes and two war walkers. The game was close but Tyranids edged out a win by 1 VP. The -2 VP penalty my opponent had for fielding Jain Zar and the war walkers ended up being decisive.

This was one of the most fun games I have played with my Nids in years. The Tyrannofex and the Trygon were both very good in this environment. The game ended in a massive brawl where Jain Zar charged and killed Deathleaper in a challenge, only to find her and her escort exposed to the T-Fex's acid spray, which vaporized her banshee buddies and left her vulnerable to being charged by the T-Fex, the Trugon and one of the Lictors. She went down after 2 rounds of valiant fighting.

The thing I like most about this format is it makes me excited about list building again. I got bored of Nids after all of my lists started with Flyrant x2 every time, but this feels really fresh and I don't feel like I am hobbling myself by using fun units like the T Fex and Trygon prime that are generally considered sub par.

That's great to hear! Glad you picked up this idea too. We've been having a lot of fun with it lately. I'm feeling that limiting the units you can pick is not taking away from listbuilding that much and in some cases even makes it more variable. Like in your Nid example. Contradictory as it is.

I've played deathguard vs ig yesterday. But it was a bit odd cause even with Typhus 'tax', death guard are just too tough. Bikers should be limited to somewhere around 3-5 models and should probably have a -1 cause they're not that rare to see on board and they're a strong unit that discourages the use of raptors (which i ran too but jinks and t6 for a marginal point increase is just too good).
I ran Typhus (-1), 5 marines with plazma in a rhino, 10 zombies, 5 ac havoks in a rhino, forgefiend with hades and ectocannon(+1), 5 raptors with plazma and a fist, 5 bikers with a fist, 5 warp talons(+1) and 3 terminators with plazma and chainfist. The opponent ran IG. Yarrikk, 2 vets with melta in chimeras, tempestus scion platoon - 2 squads with meltas and a comsquad with...something i don't remember, a Valkirie, a leman russ battle tank and 2 basilisks.

I got super lucky with 1-st turn maelstorm objectives, so i was far ahead on VP from the beginning - like 6-0 turn one. But than he started picking up, i mishapped my termie deepstrike and they got destroyed, warp talons failed a lot of dangerous terrain tests and charges. But in the end a couple lucky raptors, including a fist champion got to his basilisks, zombies and marines dealt significant damage to deepstriking scions, havoks relentlessly blasted away his chimeras and bikers carried Typhus to combat with Yarikk and vets where Typhus eventually killed the imperials and Yarrikk wasn't lucky enough to stand up once more. He still had some units scattered across the board, killed a couple models here and there and almost finished off all the bikers but the first turn VP advantage and my +1 for unit selection was too much to catch up. So, death guard won - mostly on maelstorm. And yes, bikers are just too tough. They ate a lot of fire in 1-2 turn and still a couple remained. They definitely need a limit of 5 or even fewer bikes and -1. At least for MoN bikers. Raptors are way more tame and still a really solid unit. Especially for DG.

 koooaei wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I can't see the link so I'm asking: are only special characters allowed as HQs? If the answer is yes it means that orks must have one of the following characters: badruk, grotsnik and zagstruk.

I'd really like to see some orks lists then, they should be extremely cool I've always been a huge fan of mad dok.

It's mostly named hq. But some armies like gsc, skiitari, daemons and a couple others have a limited access to generic HQ with restricted gear.

Only CADs allowed there. If that's what you mean.

I'm a bit confused about these restrictions. Basically if only the units named in the restrictions are allowed, basically for CSM many legions are effectively banned. Banned would be World Eaters, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors as these legions do not allow unique units or the unique allowed is not listed on that restrictions document, all the while Black Legion, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children are allowed as their Unique units are listed on that restrictions. So what I don't get is why would you allow Death Guard but ban Word Bearers or Night Lords?


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I mean, to my understanding the Death Guard is quite widely considered the strongest Legion from Traitor Legions book, so allowing them while banning others is weird.
Of course by only allowing Unique Characters you can dodge all kind of cheesy HQ builds, so I kind of understand the logic, but still I don't understand why Death Guard would be allowed.

This kind of tournament is a great opportunity to see Generalship shine through. Tournaments have all kinds of minor tweaks and interesting twists, and the challenge always is to win, same as it ever was. Wins are as legit in one format as another since it is in reality the Generals facing off with whatever twists the TO decided on.

Cool.

Ghorgul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I can't see the link so I'm asking: are only special characters allowed as HQs? If the answer is yes it means that orks must have one of the following characters: badruk, grotsnik and zagstruk.

I'd really like to see some orks lists then, they should be extremely cool I've always been a huge fan of mad dok.

It's mostly named hq. But some armies like gsc, skiitari, daemons and a couple others have a limited access to generic HQ with restricted gear.

Only CADs allowed there. If that's what you mean.

I'm a bit confused about these restrictions. Basically if only the units named in the restrictions are allowed, basically for CSM many legions are effectively banned. Banned would be World Eaters, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors as these legions do not allow unique units or the unique allowed is not listed on that restrictions document, all the while Black Legion, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children are allowed as their Unique units are listed on that restrictions. So what I don't get is why would you allow Death Guard but ban Word Bearers or Night Lords?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, to my understanding the Death Guard is quite widely considered the strongest Legion from Traitor Legions book, so allowing them while banning others is weird.
Of course by only allowing Unique Characters you can dodge all kind of cheesy HQ builds, so I kind of understand the logic, but still I don't understand why Death Guard would be allowed.

probably cause there were no legions by the time this restrictions were released. I don't know. As said before, i think the list should be a tad more broad - especially to allow more canonic styles of play - like allowing Kharne with (-1) or some generic characters with gear restrictions - like no bikes and relics. Same goes to SM - not all orders are getting represented and they don't even have 1 pod. Orks should have Ghazzy. He's definitely not ott and he's a LoW which will still force you to take an interesting HQ like Zag or Badrukk. But it's really dificult to not go overboard with allowed stuff. Like with the wulfen with full gear suggestion.

Though, once again, the main purpose of this restrictions is to shift focus to more rare units that aren't used all that much in modern 40k games. I've fielded some of this units: footslogging eldar guardians, avatar, vipers, striking scorpions, csm landraider, abaddon, warp talons, forgefiend...and the thing is they were ok and some of them - especially warp talons, forgefiends and striking scorpions did surprisingly good. I'm looking forward to running Yarikk with ogryns or a thematic ig jungle fighter list with lots of walkers and Straken running around showing 'how it's done'. Unfortunately, our local club doesn't have any ig walkers avaliable for use. So it will probably be Yarikk with ogryns. And Straken will probably have to move to tabletop simulator.