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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Ok, so a little update.


Is Fear rolled before Overwatch is taken or is Overwatch taken first? I cant seem to find a ruling on this.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Fear rule states that when a fighter is charged they must take the test - so my reading is after charging movement is complete.
Overwatch can only be used during the movement phase, so my reading is Overwatch goes first.
As soon as you've declared the charge, they declare firing from overwatch at any time during the move, then test for fear after the charge is completed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 07:02:55


 
   
Made in au
Tough Tyrant Guard




 Dravis wrote:
Fear rule states that when a fighter is charged they must take the test - so my reading is after charging movement is complete.



but if you are the charger it is done before
because if you fail you dont charge
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






GodDamUser wrote:
 Dravis wrote:
Fear rule states that when a fighter is charged they must take the test - so my reading is after charging movement is complete.



but if you are the charger it is done before
because if you fail you dont charge


That's correct, I just didn't think that Harlequins would be sitting on Overwatch, but I'm sure there could be some situation that would require it.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Ok, so I've been looking through the rules looking for loopholes.

In answer to the questions above. I think it may be rare, but Harlies with Nuero or Fusion would be VERY dangerous on overwatch.
We can choose to fire at close range meaning +2 to hit, +1 with the overwatch modifier and BS5 on our Vituosos. Sounds scary, providing only 1 unit attempts a charge or to move close.

Anyway, onto Tau.

So from my reading, and agreed above. Fear is done AFTER Overwatch. Meaning he will always be able to overwatch me on the charge.
However, there are some more things that play in our favour.

The wording of Overwatch specifically states that it uses your LAST movement phase to determine for running modifier or not.
Scenario :

Turn 3 - I run my Virtuoso
Turn 4 - I charge my Virtuoso - Tau has a -3 to hit, -2 for Running last turn and -1 for Overwatch.

Also, if you set it up correctly, you can force them to take initiative tests to even fire Overwatch!

Rule that applies : Fleeting

If a unit moves from an out of sight position to an out of sight position then the overwatching player must take an initiative test to see if they were fast enough to fire.
So this doesnt need to be Full Cover to Full Cover. It could also be from a position where they are not 'spotted'.
It can be Full Cover to out of his 90deg arc. Ie, no longer has line of sight.

See image below.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also on another note.

Im cosidering an opening list of :

Troupe Master -

4x Virtuoso

No upg for 1st mission
I can fully upg 1 per mission won or spend a cache.

Think its viable rather than forcing cache spends for more units later with.

Troupe Master
Fusion/H-Blade

Virtuoso
Neuro/Embrace

Virtuoso
Neuro
H/Blade

Means Im forced to spend a cache for more bodies immediately.
[Thumb - Overwatch.png]
Overwatch Scenario

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 07:53:20


 
   
Made in se
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Uppsala, Sweden

It sure seems like you have a very good learning curve!

Good luck. I look forward to hearing about the re-match :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
About those fear/charge/overwatch rules, they are indeed unclearly written and open for various conflicting interpretations.

The good news is that the biggest facebook group for SWA did a serious collection of FAQ-worthy questions, including this one. GW were very grateful that we did their quality assurance and playtesting for them, and promised to get back with answers in an FAQ.

Link to the post.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10154886948715129&id=1575682476085719

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 08:12:17


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






The running modifier only counts the current turn.
Actual wording: " When determining whether or not a target of overwatch fire is running, the fighter's move that turn is used rather than that of their previous turn."

The other tactic of forcing initiative test looks good.
   
Made in se
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Uppsala, Sweden

mcsheehy wrote:

The wording of Overwatch specifically states that it uses your LAST movement phase to determine for running modifier or not.


I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation.

The regular shooting rules says:
-1 Overwatch: The shooter is firing at a target whilst on overwatch (se Overwatch, pg 36)
-1 Charging: The shooter is firing at a target that is charging them
-1 Running: The target ran in their previous movement phase.

However the fourth paragraph on pg 37 says:
"When determining whether or not a target of overwatch fire is running, the fighters move that turn is used rather than that of their previous turn."

And Prismatic Blur says
"If a fighter with this ability ran in their previous movement phase, enemy fighters suffer a -2 hit modifier instead of only -1."
Even with this bad wording, I'd say the prismatic blur modifier is _instead_ of the -1 for running target. And for overwatch "running target" is dependent on the ongoing movement phase. And charging is not running.

So I would say that a Tau that recieves a charge will suffer -1 from Overwatch fire and -1 from being charged. But it doesn't suffer an additional -2 from Prismatic Blur, since it wouldn't suffer -1 for running target.

A Tau that uses Supporting Fire to assist would only suffer -1 from Overwatch. (As a bonus they would not need to worry about the silly fear/charge/overwatch rules.)

I am also a bit curious about what happens if a nearby Tau is on Overwatch _and_ can do Supporting fire.
Can they fire twice, first with Overwatch then with Supporting Fire? Probably not.
Will shooting Supporting Fire cause them to loose Overwatch. Maybe.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Tentatively I'd say no to the first and yes to the second.
My reasoning is that Supporting fire counts as overwatch; once they've shot in overwatch they are no longer in overwatch, there is no double dipping.

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Hi guys,

So ignore my interpretation of the Overwatch rule. Guess thats what happens when your sleep deprived.

However, the charging from cover still applies. We played a few games in store today and the Staff were in agreement since this game works with 90 deg arcs.
So... seems legit.

I do not think that they are able to Overwatch and use Supporting Fire. However, they may be able to give supporting fire more than once. Since it is only LIKE Overwatch?

Also my friend had a point. Units within 3" fire as if in Overwatch. It does not state it HAS to be at the charging target.

For example, See image below, a group of 4 Pathfinders are grouped, facing different directions for cover. All within 3" of one another.

They would all get to Overwatch, but cannot see the charging target. If they can see another target it seems they may fire at them?
In the scenario below, the two on the left cannot see the charging harlie but are able to see another. Thanks to their rule, they should be able to shoot? right?]

Chris

[Thumb - Charge Scenario.png]

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Also, another dirty tactic.

If you have sufficient movement to execute it.

The below move (if legal, I cannot see why not) would abuse the Tau needing to take initiative tests to shoot us.

Following the ruling from "Fleeting". Charging from a hidden position (Easy for harlies since we do not suffer from terrain) and finishing out of that 90deg cone.

See attached image.













Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, you'l be happy to know. This should be my spam finished for the day.

I only split these up so the images attached were relevant and not confusing.

So my re-match today, I discovered very quickly I was wrong about Overwatch and running from the previous phase. My bad.
Re read the rules before anyone in my shop found out though.

So, my re-match with Tau. Went really well.
I'm sad to say I cheesed the hell out of Fleeting for Overwatch. Poor guy :(
But, I played 4 games and I think he managed to actually kill 1 harlie in 4 games.

Played

Master -
Fusion Pistol
H/Blade

Virtuoso -
Neuro Disruptor
Embrace

Virtuoso -
Neuro Disruptor
H/Blade

For this matchup, it worked fine. I took a Death Jester in a few games.
He is OP when the max distance Tau can spot you is 12"

Template weapon is S1, so harder to set off the alarm. Unless I can find ruling somewhere I've overlooked because this seems OP. S1 Large Blast, hits on 2, wounds on 2. -1 Armour save.
Most low armour low Initiative armies will hate us


Onto new and brighter things.

I dominated most games against Chaos and also against Necrons.

My biggest challenge was Astra Militarum.

He ran multiple snipers with Toxic Rounds. Although, I've since read he was using his special rule wrong. He was giving +1 to hit, not re-rolling 1's.
This might not be such an issue. However, I failed some saves and the mass of fire eventually got through my saves. In hindsight I think I need to start being more conscious and learn all the other army's rules because im sure, now reading, that there were a few failed ammo saves too.

Anyway this aside.

Quick question.
Red dot sight gives the target a 6+ Invuln. Does this improve ours to 3++? No reason why it wouldn't surely?

Thanks for helping guys.

Going to make a quick tips sheet for myself as a reference point to ensure I am not cheated and dont forget rules.
Such as playing an entire game and forgetting my Death Jesters rule!

Also considering starting a campaign with;

Troupe Master
No Upg

4x Virtuoso

This should get me by mission 1 and I can upgrade each one with Neuro Disruptor/H-Blade per game or spend a cache.

Thoughts?

Chris
[Thumb - InitiativeAbuse.png]

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 16:53:03


 
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger






mcsheehy wrote:

Also considering starting a campaign with;

Troupe Master
No Upg

4x Virtuoso

This should get me by mission 1 and I can upgrade each one with Neuro Disruptor/H-Blade per game or spend a cache.

Thoughts?

Chris


Virtuosos are a specialist, can't have more then 2 of them.

Shadow War Armageddon rule book page 71 wrote:
Specialists: A kill team can have up to two specialists, except Astra Militarum Veteran kill teams, which can have up to three specialists.



The three clown team looks fun though, I might try that.


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Ah,

I completely over looked this!

Sigh... Guess Its back to the drawing board.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/23 17:56:33


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






mcsheehy wrote:


Quick question.
Red dot sight gives the target a 6+ Invuln. Does this improve ours to 3++? No reason why it wouldn't surely?



Different armour saves do not stack, you have to choose the save you want to use, so in your case the 6++ is useless.

There are quick reference sheets at the back of the book, they don't list everything, but they show some of the important tables, pretty handy.
I think some of the stores should have a separate version of the quick references.

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Ok, good to know
   
 
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