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I'm using this calculator here, which comes out to 19.75

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

The Cents also get 10 Lascannon shots with the equivalent of Twin-Linked and Shred. Seems to neutralize threats to them short of a Falchion (T9, 2+, 26W) fairly effectively.

What about Frag Launchers.

4 points for D6 str 4 shots at 18"

Seems points efficient.

UndersIzed unit deepstriking single justicar casting the new vortex power backed up by a few snipers

Audustum wrote:
I'm using this calculator here, which comes out to 19.75

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

The Cents also get 10 Lascannon shots with the equivalent of Twin-Linked and Shred. Seems to neutralize threats to them short of a Falchion (T9, 2+, 26W) fairly effectively.

I got 15.80 from that site as well. 30 attacks, 3+ to hit with reroll, S4 T3 with reroll, 5+ save,

sossen wrote:

Audustum wrote:
I'm using this calculator here, which comes out to 19.75

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

The Cents also get 10 Lascannon shots with the equivalent of Twin-Linked and Shred. Seems to neutralize threats to them short of a Falchion (T9, 2+, 26W) fairly effectively.

I got 15.80 from that site as well. 30 attacks, 3+ to hit with reroll, S4 T3 with reroll, 5+ save,

Ah there we go. I was hitting 6 on the dropdown. Our numbers match now.

 Tactica wrote:
I was looking at several armies this weekend and its startling at how good the horde is in 8th ed.

Orks have 3 point gretchin with good BS and you can litterally blanket the field in wounds and even take 4 flamers for 4d6 auto hits a turn.

IG have 3 point conscripts in 50-man squad coupled with commissar get rediculously resilient to morale and add straken and you get better. I'm not sure anyone can ever get you off of the objectives in a 5 turn game.

Chaos cultists are 3 pnts a model and fielded in up to 40 man squads and you can give them all pistols and brutal combat weapons so you can shoot every turn even in combat and get 2 attacks each...

Tau drones are 8 points each for gun and shield drones or 10 points each for marker drones, and they act as ablative wounds for characters or other units as needed...

Necrons an take a horde of swarms with multi-wound bases and get stuck in pretty good in melee.

I stopped looking.... but for around 1K points, you can litterally 'blanket' the field in crap with legs... but in the new rules, they are actually decent to field as there's now no WS comparison in combat, and to hit rolls in shooting is a flat stat. Even S3 guns can wound most things in the game on 5+... and with the kinds of shots we are talking, in the 100s a turn... and when you can field upwards of 300 wounds, it starts becoming a bit ludicrous in a 1700 point game.

Forget moving all that a turn and getting a tournament done on time... but wow... deploy, camp objectives and start removing wounds from the rear as needed... forget about the enemy 'reserve striking... or whatever' into the game anywhere but their own deployment zone...

What am I missing?

I mean IG can then take another 30 or so auto-cannon heavy weapons and have points to spare... tau can take some commanders to sprinkle in the drones... list goes on and on.

This seems crazy!

Most armies have tools for dealing with hordes, only one or two are a bit lacking in that category. The change is that now you have to either bring tools to deal with that, or just accept that you'll lose in the face of it.

I've only recently come back to 40k, but it seems like previous editions everyone just picked sledgehammer style units and relied on having the bigger hammer to solve all their problems. While 8th may turn into that, right now it seems more like you need to pack a box of multiple tools. Some units need mulit-damage weapons, some units need lots of dakka, some you need to charge into combat.

Tau Drones aren't exactly suited for horde-ing. Taken as a Fast Attack option, I think you can only field 12 models max. Tau do have a lot of MSU drone units we can spam, but they're more of a nuisance than a winning strategy.

 XT-1984 wrote:
What about Frag Launchers.

4 points for D6 str 4 shots at 18"

Seems points efficient.

I think it is better than Storm bolter at range between 12 and 18, but worse at <12 or between 18 to 24. If I have the choice, I tends to take 2 Storm Bolters over Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 orchewer wrote:
Tau Drones aren't exactly suited for horde-ing. Taken as a Fast Attack option, I think you can only field 12 models max. Tau do have a lot of MSU drone units we can spam, but they're more of a nuisance than a winning strategy.

A Outrider detachment full of 36 drones and 1 Ethereal on Hover Drone costs only 338 points. Drone hordes can be a thing.

If Hordes really do become a thing, a sniper or two for calibre to remove the leadership buffer.

Then simply apply wounds above the targets LD + 6

Exactly hence the justicar bomb take out the buffers and they are much easier to kill since moral does the job for you

Boys and cheaper 7 point bloodletters are nasty assault hordes.

AM is beefy, but commissars are vulnerable to snipers.

Razerous wrote:
If Hordes really do become a thing, a sniper or two for calibre to remove the leadership buffer.

Then simply apply wounds above the targets LD + 6

Assuming every faction has good snipers (they don't), or that some factions have mitigation/bodyguards (they do), sniping becomes somewhat problematic.

I worry less about horde numbers of wounds than I do of domination of the game time. If you have to move, shoot and assault with 200+ models, you'll eat up all of the game time doing your stuff. This is a big problem at tournaments, and while it's not a new one, this edition may make it a more common problem. I guess if everyone adopts a horde meta it balances out, but this edition was supposed to speed up play, right?

I disagree with Tyranids being labeled a competative horde army,

(4pts) Termagants are trash compared to Conscripts and (5-6 Point Hormagaunts (hits like a wet noodle compared to Boyz).

It's effective models is at 8 pts(devilgants) and 12 pts(genestealers). It's more of balanced army than horde.

 John Prins wrote:

This is a big problem at tournaments, and while it's not a new one, this edition may make it a more common problem. I guess if everyone adopts a horde meta it balances out, but this edition was supposed to speed up play, right?

Yes, but 40k should be a simulation of a battle, not a match between 5-10 superheroes. Many units are also become more expensive which means than other than some cheap troops you'll unlikely end up playing with tons of models. And most of those hordes armies were hordes oriented even in the older editions, like orks, tyranids and AM. Tau lists with a stormsurge and 3-5 riptides or tyranids with only big monsters were an issue, I'm glad that 40k doesn't go that way anymore.

Hordes won't dominate the meta since orks, tyranids and daemons are not suited for many players. Tau and necrons can't be played with real hordes. Only AM hordes could become quite popular because they're very effective and that army has always been among the most beloved ones. But honestly I don't see hordes as the new standard since only a few armies can field them and most of these factions can be decent, if not competitive, even with another approach. The positive aspect of 8th edition is that hordes are viable once again, it doesn't mean that this is the new standard way of playing.

Razerous wrote:
If Hordes really do become a thing, a sniper or two for calibre to remove the leadership buffer.

Then simply apply wounds above the targets LD + 6

You can't possibly remove all those Flyrants before that 3 units of 20 strong Genestealers charge you and claws you to death

For Orks, good luck reducing 15 boyz from each of three 30 boyz strong mobs.

You want hordes dead? Brings Noise Marines friends, sonic bolters + Endless Cacophony will see plenty off and at a very reasonable price point at that. If you particularly need them removed use buff commanders and Votlw and season for taste.

Hordes are the paper to the rock of Flyer spam.

They're a valid play style now that templates are gone.

CovenantGuardian wrote:

I disagree with Tyranids being labeled a competative horde army,

(4pts) Termagants are trash compared to Conscripts and (5-6 Point Hormagaunts (hits like a wet noodle compared to Boyz).

It's effective models is at 8 pts(devilgants) and 12 pts(genestealers). It's more of balanced army than horde.

Purestrains, even at 12PPM, are fully competitive and where you should go to be hording Tyranids in my book. 960 points gets you 4 units of 20.

 Blackie wrote:

Yes, but 40k should be a simulation of a battle, not a match between 5-10 superheroes.

Full agreement here. I'm generally of the opinion that characters are way too overpowered, and should just be slightly better than the rank and file guys (or rather, the sergeants), not ten times better.

 Arthas367 wrote:
You want hordes dead? Brings Noise Marines friends, sonic bolters + Endless Cacophony will see plenty off and at a very reasonable price point at that. If you particularly need them removed use buff commanders and Votlw and season for taste.

I think Noise Marines have some potential against hordes, with 3 shot bolter ignore cover, the blast master and bonus in fight phase, a 10 strong squad should have some edge in reducing hordes.

That trigger me to analysis what unit in Marine army that is "qualify" in dealing with fast moving high-model count army / unit. The qualifying standard is: in one turn of shooting with average rolling, the unit / model can heavily deplete a 20 strong Genestealer unit (which is around 240pts, they puch real hard, lightning fast in moving, and somehow quite survivable compare to IG or Ork Boyz), under a Malanthrope buff and hiding in terrain waiting to charge you next turn.

The analysis is assisted by
http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/
which is introduced into this post by Audustum

I just not bother to count the tactical squad or equivent, 16 bolter shots (assume they marched 6 inch closer to target), 2 plasma shots, and D6 shot of that frag missile is just not enough to the point that mathhammer is not needed to conclude that they are bad at the job. And they will surely die to the charge of 10+ Genestealers.

Lets start with some "gun boat" tanks with , the 1st one: the new shiny Repulsors with Heavy Onslaught Gatling, Onslaught Gatling, Twin Heavy Bolter, 3 storm bolters, 2 Fragstrom Grenade Launchers, 2 Krakstrom Grenade Launchers, 1 Ironhail heavy stubber. It has 24 S5 Ap-1 shots, 12+2D6 S4 AP0 shots, 2 S6 AP-1 shots, and 3 S4 Ap-1 shots at 12 inch range. The respective kills against the aforemention Genestealer unit will be 5.33, 2.38, 0.44, and 0.50, thus resulting a total of 8.65 dead genestealers. The genestealer left is still 11 in number and pose a significant threat.

So, the Repulsor Failed

Next, the Land Raider Crusader: 24 shots S4 AP0, 12 shots S6 AP-1, which have killed 3.25 (optional 2 more S4 AP0 from top storm bolter) and 2.67 respectively that yields 5.92 kills. the LRC Failed

OK, that is 300+ points big tanks, lets maybe look at some of the smaller brothers, for example, the Land Speeders with 2 Heavy Flamers.
The math shows a squad of 3 LS with this loadout will kill 9.32 Genestealers in shooting. Not bad, that unit is half dead, though not yet to the point of "heavily depleted", the first SM unit at 300pts mark that can kill 120pts worth of Genestealers appears. And I bet the survived guys would choose another target to charge now.

How about Aggressors? The 3 men flame Aggressors dish out 6D6 auto hit S4 Ap0. That will kill 5.24 Genestealers. So if they are 6men strong, they will half the Genestealer squad in one round. However, they need Repulsors or being in RG army to have a chance to get into 8 inches for that alpha strike. Or the Genestealers will just run around them.
The Bolt Aggressors dish out 18+3D6 shots, which gives 3.56 dead genestealer, if they had not moved, they will gun down a third of that Genestealers. If they are 6 strong and standing still, they might qualify as horde killers and provide a no entering zone of 18 inch radius. No bad. Just need to be careful that Genestealer's averaged charging threat range should also be around 18 inches. Sooooo..... better take them as Ultramarines?

That is what I've thought so far. Anyone has some supplement or comments?

My group is dominated by hoards, mostly the 120 ork mobs kind.

The big complaint seems to be time. A few of the locals are taking orks to a tournament at the end of the month counting on t takes an hour to play a full turn. =\

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts.

You mean aside from all the other options they have.

 Arthas367 wrote:
That is what I've thought so far. Anyone has some supplement or comments?

how about 20 Acolytes with stormbolters in a Stormlord ? at 200 pts they are doing •Average number of wounds: 17.78 against s4 t3 5+ save things. At rapid fire range.

I didn't include the cost of the Stormlord since I was running one anyway with Conscripts in it. However I had problems vs Hord armies





Automatically Appended Next Post:
also for 135 pts could put 5 morter teams in the Stormlord for •Average number of wounds: 11.68

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts.

You mean aside from all the other options they have.

on a competitive level, with stormraven spam nerfed, Pure space marines will lose to pure AM overwhelmingly most of the time.

stratigo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts.

You mean aside from all the other options they have.

on a competitive level, with stormraven spam nerfed, Pure space marines will lose to pure AM overwhelmingly most of the time.

Like 90% of other armies will do. SM have actually more chances than many other factions to win against AM.

I don't really think so. Maybe Ravenguard. Maybe. But after using marines many times and going against them many times, I'm thoroughly unimpressed.

Ravenguard easily take a conscript army. As you can start with all your assault troops in melee on turn 1.

That's less useful than it sounds.

Hordes are not OP, conscripts and brimstones have been, but we now have a lot more against hordes:

1) Aggressors, they are the ultimate solution against hordes.
2) One tactical marine or CSM can hold the objective against 50 conscripts.
3) Brimstones were nerfed as soon as the codex came out, and we know that an AM codex is coming out. If i painted and assembled 100+ conscripts i would be sweating bricks right now.