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I've been getting tons of mileage out of Crusader squads given that I can take 1 special, 1 combi, and 1 heavy weapon in squads 5 marines strong. Though that is just a perk of being a Templar I suppose. Thing is, that's a lot of dakka to plop down for not a lot of points. The weapons themselves are the most expensive part.

 ultimentra wrote:
I've been getting tons of mileage out of Crusader squads given that I can take 1 special, 1 combi, and 1 heavy weapon in squads 5 marines strong. Though that is just a perk of being a Templar I suppose. Thing is, that's a lot of dakka to plop down for not a lot of points. The weapons themselves are the most expensive part.

The squad still gives up points pretty quickly, though. Marines end up being glass cannons in practice, which isn't super viable, imo. Savvy people who play gunlines/mobile gunlines can afford to almost always priority targets now because being assault is an inconvenience, not a death sentence. You said it yourself; the guns cost the most and provide zero durability.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
I think this thread really separates the people that actually know how to play the game and people who only know how to crunch numbers.

Yeah it really doesn't.

Anything I really want Tactical Marines to do offensively I can get Scouts to do for the most part. If I want to camp or take objectives, Intercessors do that better. While not troops anymore, if I want special weapon spam I can still go with Bikers.

The only thing Tactical Marines do is be the cheapest source of Razorbacks. And honestly I would rather just do Sternguard and infiltrate them with either Lias or Ravenguard shenanigans, so I get my cake and eat it too.

Do we really need a "cheap source of razorbacks" I mean...we can take a razor for every other unit in our army. Like - isn't a tech marine a cheaper source of a razorback anyways? Plus it can repair the razor as well.

 Stus67 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
I think this thread really separates the people that actually know how to play the game and people who only know how to crunch numbers.

Out of interest, which group is which? Do you think the people who know how to play like tactical marines, or find them a liability?

I think the people that find them a liability are the ones who focus too much on numbers and not actually playing. I play close to 4 times a week if not more and the local meta has a decent chunk of marine players and almost all of them get some good mileage out of their tac marines, sometimes pulling miracles with them. Not saying they don't have their problems, but when you're actually at the table crunching numbers doesn't help you much if you're just getting outplayed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not that it maters because everybody just losses to the Sisters players anyway.

It's wrong to assume that people you don't know have, or do not have, real experience of playing the game. I feel that I do know how to play, but I try not to assume that I'm a better player than people I'm talking to online.

I don't play as much as you. I play most of my games at tournaments, many of which I've won. Of the 8 games of 8th edition I've played so far, 6 were at an event at warhammer world, two at my local games club, three were doubles games, and all were victories apart from one where my opponent made a pretty major mistake with the rules (or quite likely just cheated ). Because I don't get to play as much as all that, I do tend to crunch numbers a bit.

Numbers do not lie. They can be, and often are, misinterpreted. You definitely can't just rely on the numbers on their own to inform your army build. But you can use them to work out whether a twin-lascannon or an autocannon would be the better weapon to put on your predator's turret - or to compare the efficiency of both options against a variety of targets.

Real-game experience can also be misleading, because you can be lucky or unlucky in any given game, or with any given unit. In game, the things we remember are the things that stand out, and these are often at the extremes of probability. At the same time, it's extremely difficult to visualise all the outcomes of a real game before it starts, so you can't get good without playing.

Anyway, overall I think tactical squads are not a great unit, but they are one that can be used for decent effect. The main advantage they have is that they fit in cheap-ish transports. An AC razorback and 5 tactical marines is a decent unit to put in an army, but it's not all that amazing.

So are they a liability? Not necessarily. I don't think I'd ever use them footslogging if given the alternative of using intercessors, except possibly in a salamanders army. I think they are outclassed even for riding in transports, most obviously by grey hunters. I absolutely wouldn't start building an army around them.

 ultimentra wrote:
I've been getting tons of mileage out of Crusader squads given that I can take 1 special, 1 combi, and 1 heavy weapon in squads 5 marines strong. Though that is just a perk of being a Templar I suppose. Thing is, that's a lot of dakka to plop down for not a lot of points. The weapons themselves are the most expensive part.

Crusader squad is not a tactical squad. 3 special per 5 is not bad. That's where you start getting into the realm of being able to make your points back in a single round of shooting - which is what small specialist squads are supposed to do. A 5 man tactical is missing the 3rd weapon - it will rarely get the job done - but it always dies. This has been the story of tactical for their entire history.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
I've been getting tons of mileage out of Crusader squads given that I can take 1 special, 1 combi, and 1 heavy weapon in squads 5 marines strong. Though that is just a perk of being a Templar I suppose. Thing is, that's a lot of dakka to plop down for not a lot of points. The weapons themselves are the most expensive part.

Crusader squad is not a tactical squad. 3 special per 5 is not bad. That's where you start getting into the realm of being able to make your points back in a single round of shooting - which is what small specialist squads are supposed to do. A 5 man tactical is missing the 3rd weapon - it will rarely get the job done - but it always dies. This has been the story of tactical for their entire history.

The crusaders are a bigger liability if alpha struck, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
I think this thread really separates the people that actually know how to play the game and people who only know how to crunch numbers.

Out of interest, which group is which? Do you think the people who know how to play like tactical marines, or find them a liability?

I think the people that find them a liability are the ones who focus too much on numbers and not actually playing. I play close to 4 times a week if not more and the local meta has a decent chunk of marine players and almost all of them get some good mileage out of their tac marines, sometimes pulling miracles with them. Not saying they don't have their problems, but when you're actually at the table crunching numbers doesn't help you much if you're just getting outplayed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not that it maters because everybody just losses to the Sisters players anyway.

It's wrong to assume that people you don't know have, or do not have, real experience of playing the game. I feel that I do know how to play, but I try not to assume that I'm a better player than people I'm talking to online.

I don't play as much as you. I play most of my games at tournaments, many of which I've won. Of the 8 games of 8th edition I've played so far, 6 were at an event at warhammer world, two at my local games club, three were doubles games, and all were victories apart from one where my opponent made a pretty major mistake with the rules (or quite likely just cheated ). Because I don't get to play as much as all that, I do tend to crunch numbers a bit.

Numbers do not lie. They can be, and often are, misinterpreted. You definitely can't just rely on the numbers on their own to inform your army build. But you can use them to work out whether a twin-lascannon or an autocannon would be the better weapon to put on your predator's turret - or to compare the efficiency of both options against a variety of targets.

Real-game experience can also be misleading, because you can be lucky or unlucky in any given game, or with any given unit. In game, the things we remember are the things that stand out, and these are often at the extremes of probability. At the same time, it's extremely difficult to visualise all the outcomes of a real game before it starts, so you can't get good without playing.

Anyway, overall I think tactical squads are not a great unit, but they are one that can be used for decent effect. The main advantage they have is that they fit in cheap-ish transports. An AC razorback and 5 tactical marines is a decent unit to put in an army, but it's not all that amazing.

So are they a liability? Not necessarily. I don't think I'd ever use them footslogging if given the alternative of using intercessors, except possibly in a salamanders army. I think they are outclassed even for riding in transports, most obviously by grey hunters. I absolutely wouldn't start building an army around them.

A good example of this is my stormraven. I've gone to using typhoon/lascannon because I want more standoff weapons. That's a play-style decision, not a crunching decision. I know the assault cannon is better vs hordes, but I'm also running into mechdar and nidzilla a LOT. I can put anti-horde elsewhere, PoTMS heavy weapons are rare.

they're gret with 2+ in cover. just sit there and hold a point. Throw a couple heay bolter shots and be happy.

 koooaei wrote:
they're gret with 2+ in cover. just sit there and hold a point. Throw a couple heay bolter shots and be happy.

Aren't intercessors way better for this?

Martel732 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
they're gret with 2+ in cover. just sit there and hold a point. Throw a couple heay bolter shots and be happy.

Aren't intercessors way better for this?

Yes they are. Give a grenade launcher and you're set. They'll bunker down and do better. No heavy weapon can make up for that.

Plus if you want that heavy weapon just buy the Devastators. OS won't matter on them because they're killing things dead. If you cared enough about OS, you want something more durable.

So, ya know, Intercessors.

You want tacticals to hold objectives. Put them in a transport (preferably a rhino) and push them forward fast. Either the enemy shoots them, keeping your killing assets alive, or you are scoring, or you've got a spoiler force To lock down shooting for a while.

But, I mean, if you are looking to be ultra competetive, just take conscripts

Blood Angels TAC squads are probably the best because of heavy flamers. But that's still not saying much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:


But, I mean, if you are looking to be ultra competetive, just take conscripts

This. As Imperium you have access to these guys, just use them.

 Marmatag wrote:
Blood Angels TAC squads are probably the best because of heavy flamers. But that's still not saying much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:


But, I mean, if you are looking to be ultra competetive, just take conscripts

This. As Imperium you have access to these guys, just use them.

With the caveat of "for now"

Conscripts are getting nerfs. We'll see if that matters

 Stus67 wrote:
I think the people that find them a liability are the ones who focus too much on numbers and not actually playing.

Amusingly, crunching numbers shows that tactical marines are actually pretty good if you can get off a rapid fire burst + charge in to melee. Lots of damage vs infantry for their points then, as you're now using the entire statline.

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot conflicting views about this. I still find them to be useless crap. Thoughts?

Not so much.

Now bolters with S4 can wound any model or unit out there in the 40k universe.

I used to run 3 full 10 man Greyhunter squads in rhinos back in 5th edition. Unload on a flank and watch whatever you target melt away with all those bolter shots and special weapons. They were good in assault too. Positioned the Rhino sideways at just the right angle to give the squad cover from anything that would shoot them next turn.

You could easily do this strategy with tacticals in 8th, and its better now that you can shoot and charge. Everyone seems so content with the little 5 man squads with Razorbacks, but probably havent tried 3 full 10 man squads unloading and charging into a conscript blob in 8th. Im sure it would be pretty effective with flamers.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I used to run 3 full 10 man Greyhunter squads in rhinos back in 5th edition. Unload on a flank and watch whatever you target melt away with all those bolter shots and special weapons. They were good in assault too. Positioned the Rhino sideways at just the right angle to give the squad cover from anything that would shoot them next turn.

You could easily do this strategy with tacticals in 8th, and its better now that you can shoot and charge. Everyone seems so content with the little 5 man squads with Razorbacks, but probably havent tried 3 full 10 man squads unloading and charging into a conscript blob in 8th. Im sure it would be pretty effective with flamers.

I would also cost many, many times the cost of the supported conscripts. That's the problem. Especially since you can run two blobs off one commissar, I think. You also lose the long-range punch of the razorback or the 12 assault cannon shots, which probably does more damage than the 10 man tac squad.

GH have always been the non-terrible cousins of tac marines. Although in this edition, I'm not so sure because assault got castrated.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
You could easily do this strategy with tacticals in 8th, and its better now that you can shoot and charge. Everyone seems so content with the little 5 man squads with Razorbacks, but probably havent tried 3 full 10 man squads unloading and charging into a conscript blob in 8th. Im sure it would be pretty effective with flamers.

You don't need three ten-man squads. Three five-man squads with flamers and combiflamers can do it if you charge the squad afterwards.

I used to run 3 full 10 man Greyhunter squads in rhinos back in 5th edition. Unload on a flank and watch whatever you target melt away with all those bolter shots and special weapons when your in 12 inch range. They were good in assault too. Positioned the Rhino sideways at just the right angle to give the squad cover from anything that would shoot them next turn.

You could easily do this strategy with tacticals in 8th, and its better now that you can shoot and charge. Everyone seems so content with the little 5 man squads with Razorbacks, but probably havent tried 3 full 10 man squads unloading and charging into a conscript blob in 8th. Im sure it would be pretty effective with flamers.

Bring the Emperor's Wrath right into the enemies face. Watch them run in fear and cower at the might of the Space Marines!

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I used to run 3 full 10 man Greyhunter squads in rhinos back in 5th edition. Unload on a flank and watch whatever you target melt away with all those bolter shots and special weapons when your in 12 inch range. They were good in assault too. Positioned the Rhino sideways at just the right angle to give the squad cover from anything that would shoot them next turn.

You could easily do this strategy with tacticals in 8th, and its better now that you can shoot and charge. Everyone seems so content with the little 5 man squads with Razorbacks, but probably havent tried 3 full 10 man squads unloading and charging into a conscript blob in 8th. Im sure it would be pretty effective with flamers.

Bring the Emperor's Wrath right into the enemies face. Watch them run in fear and cower at the might of the Space Marines!

More appropriately, laugh at the incompetence of tac marines. I know that's what I do.

I dunno. most armies need troops if they want to max out on CP.

Tactical are nice as they unlock razorbacks which are very nice

its also a nice way to get a few heavy weapons here or there.

i feel it could absolutely be viable if running sally for that one reroll able heavy or special weapon without the need to over castle up with a character for buffs.

 Desubot wrote:
Tactical are nice as they unlock razorbacks which are very nice

its also a nice way to get a few heavy weapons here or there.

i feel it could absolutely be viable if running sally for that one reroll able heavy or special weapon without the need to over castle up with a character for buffs.

Technically, Intercessors unlock Razorbacks too. As does literally any other unit in your detachment that isn't itself a Dedicated transport.
You can have a Vanguard detachment with only Dreadnoughts and still take 1 Rhino/Razorback for each Dread even though they cannot embark in them

But I agree with your other points. Salamander Tac squads with a Heavy weapon must just be worth taking.

Personally, I'd still rather take Intercessors as they are much tougher and AP -1 is useful all-around

-

Intercessors are tougher, but they still cost more per model and for the same price, tacticals can have more specialist firepower than they have. It's a good example of a legitimate trade-off in the game right now rather than an outright upgrade.

 Galef wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Tactical are nice as they unlock razorbacks which are very nice

its also a nice way to get a few heavy weapons here or there.

i feel it could absolutely be viable if running sally for that one reroll able heavy or special weapon without the need to over castle up with a character for buffs.

Technically, Intercessors unlock Razorbacks too. As does literally any other unit in your detachment that isn't itself a Dedicated transport.
You can have a Vanguard detachment with only Dreadnoughts and still take 1 Rhino/Razorback for each Dread even though they cannot embark in them

But I agree with your other points. Salamander Tac squads with a Heavy weapon must just be worth taking.

Personally, I'd still rather take Intercessors as they are much tougher and AP -1 is useful all-around

-

I like intercessors too though the lack of specials and while no longer the case you did cap out on the number of bolter shots for the sake of wounds but now that you can get a 10man its less of an issue.

the primary thing i dont like about them is the lack of transports that dont cost an arm and a leg.

i forgot how DTs unlocked (i guess i wanted to forget as it seems REALLY silly)

 Desubot wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Tactical are nice as they unlock razorbacks which are very nice

its also a nice way to get a few heavy weapons here or there.

i feel it could absolutely be viable if running sally for that one reroll able heavy or special weapon without the need to over castle up with a character for buffs.

Technically, Intercessors unlock Razorbacks too. As does literally any other unit in your detachment that isn't itself a Dedicated transport.
You can have a Vanguard detachment with only Dreadnoughts and still take 1 Rhino/Razorback for each Dread even though they cannot embark in them

But I agree with your other points. Salamander Tac squads with a Heavy weapon must just be worth taking.

Personally, I'd still rather take Intercessors as they are much tougher and AP -1 is useful all-around

-

I like intercessors too though the lack of specials and while no longer the case you did cap out on the number of bolter shots for the sake of wounds but now that you can get a 10man its less of an issue.

the primary thing i dont like about them is the lack of transports that dont cost an arm and a leg.

i forgot how DTs unlocked (i guess i wanted to forget as it seems REALLY silly)

They don't need a transport though - you're just wasting their shooting putting them in a transport anyways. End result is - intersessors end up costing less because they don't need support to function. The only upgrade they can take is worth taking though - a power sword for the sargent and the aux gernade - 104 points and ready to go.

Another thing I like about Intercessors vs Tacticals is the simplicity.
I don't play Marines, but I have a collection of them that I occasionally use for my sons to play against me. They are both relative beginners and don't play enough to memorize all the intricacies of the varied weapons. But having each unit with all Bolt rifles makes it easy
The added wounds also help keep them from getting too disheartened when they lose wounds. With Tacticals, that tends to mean multiple models removed at a time.

So even though I don't yet have any Intercessors (likely to just get the 3 'easy to build' set for my collection) all my games at home will use Intercessors until my boys decide they want more variety.

-

 Melissia wrote:
Intercessors are tougher, but they still cost more per model and for the same price, tacticals can have more specialist firepower than they have. It's a good example of a legitimate trade-off in the game right now rather than an outright upgrade.

Getting a Lascannon doesn't really make them specialist firepower. That's why if you need to camp an objective, just use Intercessors and then Scouts for going forward (they don't need a transport to get anywhere). Or just use Devastators because losing OS is worth getting more firepower.

They REALLY don't fill a role.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Intercessors are tougher, but they still cost more per model and for the same price, tacticals can have more specialist firepower than they have. It's a good example of a legitimate trade-off in the game right now rather than an outright upgrade.

Getting a Lascannon doesn't really make them specialist firepower.

Sure it does. Pop them in cover on a backline objective and they're obsec that can ding a tank. Or give them a plasmagun and combiplasma and now they have more short-ranged firepower vs MEQ even without overcharging. And with overcharging they threaten two-wound models.

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Intercessors are tougher, but they still cost more per model and for the same price, tacticals can have more specialist firepower than they have. It's a good example of a legitimate trade-off in the game right now rather than an outright upgrade.

Getting a Lascannon doesn't really make them specialist firepower.

Sure it does. Pop them in cover on a backline objective and they're obsec that can ding a tank. Or give them a plasmagun and combiplasma and now they have more short-ranged firepower vs MEQ even without overcharging. And with overcharging they threaten two-wound models.

camp on an objective in cover, with a lascannon or missile threatening more than half the board. 4 of those and you have a very spread out devastator squad that also is harder to straight kill as the guns are separated. and they take up a troop slot which opens up a higher number of command points.

It's also over 400 pts

360 isn't bigger than 400.