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Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I also don't trust people that say Smashbane and Smashfether were cheese because they weren't. They were 250+ point characters that didn't support the rest of their army, and if you wanted the further durability like mentioned here, you needed 135+ points for the command squad with the apothecary, and a formation that was inferior to Gladius as it still forced you into those garbage Tactical Marines.

It's pointless arguing with you, but here's a couple things that you seem willfully oblivious too:
Command Squads on bikes were fantastic, because you could give them all Grav Guns, and Grav Guns on Bikes were fantastic. (Especially when they have an indestructible tank ensuring that they can't ever die.) Taking a command squad was a bonus, not a liability.

Also: You did not need Tactical Marines. You could instead take an Armored Task Force and just throw down a few Whirlwinds, filling up your Core choice for a mere 260 points.
(Or you could take a Stormlance, which was pretty great since you could fire full squads of marines out of Rhinos and then turtle inside them.)
You also needed an Aux choice, but you know what one of the Aux choices was? A *Skyhammer*. One of the most brokenly powerful formations in the codex. Then you slap in a three-man Librarius Conclave or possibly two, another broken formation that also supplies you with a plethora of characters.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You know what's even better than all that? Free vehicles.

Smashbane and Smashfucker weren't sweeping tournaments for a reason. Command Squads really weren't that good.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You know what's even better than all that? Free vehicles.

Smashbane and Smashfucker weren't sweeping tournaments for a reason. Command Squads really weren't that good.

Sorry, were we ever saying that they WERE sweeping tournaments? Iron Hands in a Medusa Strike Force weren't literally the best possible combination available, but that's not what we're arguing, and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
(Though it's worth pointing out that Iron Hands ran a pretty great Gladius, too, because It Will Not Die on a dozen free vehicles and FNP on all those troops generally paid off pretty well, especially since Ultramarines couldn't actually use their Chapter Tactics right away since you get a crapton of free Doctrines to begin with and thus couldn't use the Ultramarine-specific ones.

Iron Hands were pretty good. Absolutely above-average, probably in the top three Power Armored options. (Possibly in the top 4 or top 5 if we're including CSM in the last months of the edition.)
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Waaaghpower wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You know what's even better than all that? Free vehicles.

Smashbane and Smashfucker weren't sweeping tournaments for a reason. Command Squads really weren't that good.

Sorry, were we ever saying that they WERE sweeping tournaments? Iron Hands in a Medusa Strike Force weren't literally the best possible combination available, but that's not what we're arguing, and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
(Though it's worth pointing out that Iron Hands ran a pretty great Gladius, too, because It Will Not Die on a dozen free vehicles and FNP on all those troops generally paid off pretty well, especially since Ultramarines couldn't actually use their Chapter Tactics right away since you get a crapton of free Doctrines to begin with and thus couldn't use the Ultramarine-specific ones.

Iron Hands were pretty good. Absolutely above-average, probably in the top three Power Armored options. (Possibly in the top 4 or top 5 if we're including CSM in the last months of the edition.)

You're saying Iron Hands were good because Gladius, which is wrong. Gladius made Iron Hands good and, in fact, made every Chapter Tactic good. You mostly just wanted the following things:
1. Khan for Scout
2. More Doctrines to use
3. IWND for keeping the Razorbacks alive.
Otherwise, your argument is false.

You're also saying that Smashfether and Smashbane were broken builds, which I proved false for the following reasons:
1. You only ever got two Chapter Masters to work with, one of which only ever got the additional FNP from the Gorgons Chain.
2. You required an Apothecary for each dude, and each command squad with the Apothecary was maybe 150 points minimum without even having put weapons on the other dudes.
3. Trying to go forth with the Medusa Strike Force was an added tax if you wanted to try and gain that additional FNP score.
4. This means each 250+ point character had an additional 150 for 400 each, and you said the cheapest Strike Force was 260. This leaves you with a total of 1060 points. That's 790 points left to spend on stuff.
5. If you choose to use only one of them, it's a 400+ point squad that has a total of 4 TH attacks and 10 S4 attacks with nothing special, assuming you didn't put power weapons on the command squad (which you didn't because that was an additional 15 points each). You can ignore this unit basically because Grav Guns were never that dangerous compared to the Cannon, assuming they were added (which adds 60 points more to the total.

So no there was nothing broken about Smashfether or Smashbane and really didn't deserve any complaints, besides the ones from people that complained about everything about Marines in the first place.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Miles City, MT

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. No warlord trait was guaranteed in 6-7th unless you had a special character. So no it wasn't. You can pretend like it is if you want though.
2. What was proposed here that was busted so far? Also Iron Hands were only at the top with Gladius (your vehicles might not have scouted nor did you get rerolls out the wazoo, but your free Razorbacks gaining IWND? Seems like another no brainer choice), and any other builds made then sink super low.

He's referring to the chapter tactic. I mean, sure it's a bit weird to call it a 'trait', but it's still really obvious what he'e talking about since he doesn't mention the CT ability anywhere else.
(And NorseSig's suggestion was pretty OP.)

His suggestions are usually garbage, but he isn't incorrect on Iron Hands getting the worst of it for the most part. I don't think anyone expected Iron Hands to ever gain a supplement like they did in 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't trust people that say Smashbane and Smashfether were cheese because they weren't. They were 250+ point characters that didn't support the rest of their army, and if you wanted the further durability like mentioned here, you needed 135+ points for the command squad with the apothecary, and a formation that was inferior to Gladius as it still forced you into those garbage Tactical Marines.


The Warlord Trait I originally suggested was intentionally in part OP, the other part just spit balling an idea out. That is how I best think.

Not quite sure how I should respond to your comment about my suggestions. I feel like you weren't intending to be rude or make a personal attack, but this is Dakka Dakka and not a lot of respect for others here. I will admit I do try to be respectful to others even when I disagree with them and at times fail at it. After all, we are passionate about this hobby. If you feel at some point I personally attacked you I do apologize.

Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 NorseSig wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. No warlord trait was guaranteed in 6-7th unless you had a special character. So no it wasn't. You can pretend like it is if you want though.
2. What was proposed here that was busted so far? Also Iron Hands were only at the top with Gladius (your vehicles might not have scouted nor did you get rerolls out the wazoo, but your free Razorbacks gaining IWND? Seems like another no brainer choice), and any other builds made then sink super low.

He's referring to the chapter tactic. I mean, sure it's a bit weird to call it a 'trait', but it's still really obvious what he'e talking about since he doesn't mention the CT ability anywhere else.
(And NorseSig's suggestion was pretty OP.)

His suggestions are usually garbage, but he isn't incorrect on Iron Hands getting the worst of it for the most part. I don't think anyone expected Iron Hands to ever gain a supplement like they did in 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't trust people that say Smashbane and Smashfether were cheese because they weren't. They were 250+ point characters that didn't support the rest of their army, and if you wanted the further durability like mentioned here, you needed 135+ points for the command squad with the apothecary, and a formation that was inferior to Gladius as it still forced you into those garbage Tactical Marines.


The Warlord Trait I originally suggested was intentionally in part OP, the other part just spit balling an idea out. That is how I best think.

Not quite sure how I should respond to your comment about my suggestions. I feel like you weren't intending to be rude or make a personal attack, but this is Dakka Dakka and not a lot of respect for others here. I will admit I do try to be respectful to others even when I disagree with them and at times fail at it. After all, we are passionate about this hobby. If you feel at some point I personally attacked you I do apologize.

I typically don't do personal attacks. If the suggestion is garbage is though, it's garbage.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Miles City, MT

I typically don't do personal attacks. If the suggestion is garbage is though, it's garbage.


And who is the one who gets to decide if a suggestion is garbage? What makes you more qualified than anyone else to make that decision? I had thought that maybe you had just chosen to word things poorly, and had meant you thought my idea was bad one. Good to know that you did say what you intended to say and your statement was meant as a personal attack. It lets me know where I stand with you, and weather I should actually try and see things from your point of view in the future.

As to the warlord trait I mentioned earlier, I clearly offered one up that was way to powerful. I can admit when I made a mistake. Would having the warlord trait Merciless logic grant a +1 T and having the same ability to generate hits, with the exception that it could either apply to the warlord and one other model (within 6 inches) be reasonable or maybe the extra hit rule apply to the warlord or another model within 6 inches. I would like a +1 T to play into the IH survivability thing, but if dropping it allowed merciless logic to apply to warlord and one other model within 6 inches I could live without it.

I do agree with Slayer-Fan123 on the points I am quoting below.

You're saying Iron Hands were good because Gladius, which is wrong. Gladius made Iron Hands good and, in fact, made every Chapter Tactic good. You mostly just wanted the following things:
1. Khan for Scout
2. More Doctrines to use
3. IWND for keeping the Razorbacks alive.
Otherwise, your argument is false.

You're also saying that Smashfether and Smashbane were broken builds, which I proved false for the following reasons:
1. You only ever got two Chapter Masters to work with, one of which only ever got the additional FNP from the Gorgons Chain.
2. You required an Apothecary for each dude, and each command squad with the Apothecary was maybe 150 points minimum without even having put weapons on the other dudes.
3. Trying to go forth with the Medusa Strike Force was an added tax if you wanted to try and gain that additional FNP score.
4. This means each 250+ point character had an additional 150 for 400 each, and you said the cheapest Strike Force was 260. This leaves you with a total of 1060 points. That's 790 points left to spend on stuff.
5. If you choose to use only one of them, it's a 400+ point squad that has a total of 4 TH attacks and 10 S4 attacks with nothing special, assuming you didn't put power weapons on the command squad (which you didn't because that was an additional 15 points each). You can ignore this unit basically because Grav Guns were never that dangerous compared to the Cannon, assuming they were added (which adds 60 points more to the total.

So no there was nothing broken about Smashfether or Smashbane and really didn't deserve any complaints, besides the ones from people that complained about everything about Marines in the first place.

Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Something we need to establish here:
The Gladius was just broken. Period. Literally every chapter was overpowered with a Gladius.
That being said, that doesn't mean we can't say that Iron Hands weren't one of the better chapters, it just means that we have to use two ranking systems:
How good were they, when compared to other Gladius builds?
and,
How good were they, when compared to everything else?


When using the Gladius, Iron Hands were better explicitly, definitely than Raven Guard, Salamanders, Black Templars, and Imperial Fists, because those chapters can't do anything to buff their vehicles, and the majority of the strategy in a Gladius is 'Sit around and don't die', so getting regenerating tanks and FNP on everyone is pretty potent. (You can also build 80% of Smashbane or Smashfather, you'll just need a Warlord Trait to get the 2+ FNP and you'll get 3+ otherwise.)

I'd also argue that Iron Hands were better than Ultramarines, since those extra Doctrines don't matter nearly as much when you already get one of each automatically, as well as an extra Tactical Doctrine for your Demi-companies.

That leaves White Scars as the only real chapter better than Iron Hands, and even then, only if those White Scars take Khan.



As for 'Outside of the Gladius', Iron Hands are still one of the best chapters. Despite Slayer-fans insistence, nobody actually took both Smashfather and Smashbane, because it's such an obviously terrible idea - You went one or the other. Smashfather/Smashbane on their own were better than almost any other melee character in the game. The only way to reliably kill them was to use a psychic power to debuff their, *then* hit them with S10 weapons that can get past their FNP.

However, none of that matters, because it's *not* the reason that Iron Hands were better than most of the other chapters.
The reason that Iron Hands were better than most of the other chapters is that, simply put, most of the other chapters just *sucked*.
Black Templars were AWFUL. Crusader and Admantium Will, with no psykers? Those abilities wouldn't be worth it even if you weren't penalized for taking them.
Imperial Fists were great at using Bolter weapons, which were incidentally kind of terrible and overcosted - Maaaybe you could make an argument for using them with Sternguard vets or something, but that doesn't make the chapter otherwise useful.
Salamanders were an absolute joke.
Raven Guard were the least terrible of the four 'bad' chapters, but they were mostly only good at surviving shooting on turn 1 and using Jump Packs. The first ability was pretty sweet - Good cover saves could use up Markerlights or just give good saves - But jump packs were not a good choice for most units, and were certainly not strong enough to build a whole army around.


Of the chapters listed above, Raven Guard are also the only one with a unique detachment that's particularly great, and even then, it's only great if you're using a game where you roll for missions - In a tournament, it's not going to do you nearly as much good.



So, all in all:
When using a Gladius, Iron Hands were one of the best choices because they synergize very well with it, and when not using a Gladius, four of the seven chapters were pretty terrible and Iron Hands were one of the best choices by default, even discounting the fact that they had a really potent Chapter Master build and a detachment that allowed for great durability.
   
 
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