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 MagicJuggler wrote:
What I prefer for Summary Execution is:

Remove "Aura of Discipline." When a unit fails Battleshock, the Commissar may execute one model in that unit to *add* the Commissar's Leadership to the unit's Leadership for that test.

The big difference being this change makes Commissars good but not *supergood* (you can still blow through a unit if you inflict enough casualties), and "Base + Commissar" leadership means you blam through more Conscripts than regular troops.

Or you could just revert the Commissar nerf and add to the Conscript's "Raw Recruits" rule.

Or you could accept the fact that it doesn't matter how many of your infantry die because you have nothing invested in them other than painting time.

Martel732 wrote:
Or you could accept the fact that it doesn't matter how many of your infantry die because you have nothing invested in them other than painting time.

It's pretty clear you don't hold this opinion yourself or you wouldn't be on a one-man crusade to change GW's mind by posting on a board they neither own, operate, or read.

Martel732 wrote:
Or you could accept the fact that it doesn't matter how many of your infantry die because you have nothing invested in them other than painting time.

Speak for yourself.

If I played IG, I'd absolutely play like that. Because it'd be true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or you could accept the fact that it doesn't matter how many of your infantry die because you have nothing invested in them other than painting time.

Speak for yourself.

I'm referring to their crazy low point cost.

Summary Execution needed to go away, unfortunately people are consistently failing to understand why: It's not because conscripts were dealing out insane damage, it's because they were so cheap that there was no way to kill them fast enough. Guard have access to massive amounts of high-yield firepower, a lot of which can ignore LOS and all of which has enough range to hit the entire table. You have to kill your opponent's russes, manticores, and wyverns to survive. Unfortunately, the only way to do that is either have take about 30 lascannons or get close enough that melta and CC are options. Guess what? You can't do that until you kill your way through the screen, and it's mathematically impossible to points efficiently do that when you have to kill every single 3 pt model in your way, while you're still taking battlecannon shots every shooting phase. Fearless conscripts were unfun because at the end of the game the losing side had only managed to kill 600 pts while picking up their own tanks and command squads. The nerf was necessary, because now dedicated firepower can reduce conscripts down fast enough that some of your army gets to play. The conscript screen will still work, it just won't work for as many turns.

Greyknight12 gets it. Temporal costs matter in a limited turn game.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Summary Execution needed to go away, unfortunately people are consistently failing to understand why: It's not because conscripts were dealing out insane damage, it's because they were so cheap that there was no way to kill them fast enough. Guard have access to massive amounts of high-yield firepower, a lot of which can ignore LOS and all of which has enough range to hit the entire table. You have to kill your opponent's russes, manticores, and wyverns to survive. Unfortunately, the only way to do that is either have take about 30 lascannons or get close enough that melta and CC are options. Guess what? You can't do that until you kill your way through the screen, and it's mathematically impossible to points efficiently do that when you have to kill every single 3 pt model in your way, while you're still taking battlecannon shots every shooting phase. Fearless conscripts were unfun because at the end of the game the losing side had only managed to kill 600 pts while picking up their own tanks and command squads. The nerf was necessary, because now dedicated firepower can reduce conscripts down fast enough that some of your army gets to play. The conscript screen will still work, it just won't work for as many turns.

I think people understand just fine; That's why they were taking conscript walls to begin with.

The reason why people are so irritated now is that the nerf made the commissar kind of not helpful for everything except conscripts. That is, in nerfing the commissar because of conscripts, they made it only significantly helpful when using conscripts.

Yeah. Conscripts are the only choice now if you want to run a meatshield.

Uhh... no. Infantry squads are probably better.

Martel732 wrote:
Uhh... no. Infantry squads are probably better.

Are you serious?

No. They're not.

No, i'm not kidding. But you don't understand how outrageously overpowered your own codex is. I stand by my claim.

Martel732 wrote:
No, i'm not kidding. But you don't understand how outrageously overpowered your own codex is. I stand by my claim.

Prove it then.

You've shown time and again that you do not actually know what you're talking about in this regards, since once again:
Conscripts are cheaper for more bodies and generate Lasgun fire more consistently at a longer range.

And are no longer immune to morale. So forget them. 12 10-man squads can buy more time now than 4 30 man blobs, even if they cost a bit more. Plus, 10 man squads can get cover. 4 pt models with 4+ armor? Yes please.

If you want to go a little nuts, you can give the ones in the middle of the formation some heavy weapons. These are the ones that aren't instantly expendable, but still expected to sacrifice to save the artillery/tanks.

Martel732 wrote:
And are no longer immune to morale. So forget them. 12 10-man squads can buy more time now than 4 30 man blobs, even if they cost a bit more. Plus, 10 man squads can get cover. 4 pt models with 4+ armor? Yes please.

3(3*30)=270
12*(4*10)=480
120 models for 480 points versus 90 for 270.
210 point difference--and if you really wanted to be snarky about it or to realistically claim cover, you could be doing 20 man blobs(the minimum for Conscripts), which would shave another 30 points off each Conscript Squad that could then be combined with that 210 point difference to net you another 240 points to play with.

So 540 points nets you 180 models that can be broken into 9 squads of 20 or 6 squads of 30 versus 480 points for 120 models, leaving 60 points higher on the Conscripts(which is potentially an extra Infantry Squad with no gear on anybody and then 20 points for gear to spread across the 130 models).

And realistically? You're wrong about the morale thing too. I can make Conscripts immune to morale by using any AM Psyker with "Mental Fortitude"; with bonus points for taking an Astropath(15 points base with a Laspistol and has an ability that allows him to remove the Cover bonuses for an enemy unit within 18" of him, granted to all AM units within 6" of him) instead of a Primaris Psyker.

For the price of 2 Commissars from before, I can take two Astropaths with Laspistols and give them Mental Fortitude(auto-pass Morale tests for that turn) and Nightshroud(-1 to Hit rolls for enemy units targeting a chosen unit) or Psychic Barrier(+1 to saving throws).

Remind me again why Infantry Squads are better?

If you want to go a little nuts, you can give the ones in the middle of the formation some heavy weapons. These are the ones that aren't instantly expendable, but still expected to sacrifice to save the artillery/tanks.

And this is where it shows you don't know what you're talking about. Infantry Squads don't take heavy weapons, let alone do you take Infantry Squads to be "expendable".
Infantry Squads, like Scout and Tactical Squads, are actually required to pull their weight.

Truth My infantry squads have done FAR more this edition than any of my Artillery or tanks. Although, since the codex my Leman Russes have actually become useful.

I had to embrace Catachan doctrines in order to keep my infantry around now, though.

Infantry squads don't have to do a thing. You are in denial about the raw efficacy of ig firepower.

Martel732 wrote:
Infantry squads don't have to do a thing. You are in denial about the raw efficacy of ig firepower.

You just tried to talk about arming Infantry Squads with heavy weapons and how they are able to be more effective as meatshields for the "IG firepower"...

So which is it?

It's both. That's how good IG models are. Leave them naked for one job, or copy the lascannon tactical scheme for a few of them. Either way, their main job is to take up space and slow down the enemy.

I'm not sure how good relying on psychic powers is to keep your morale running. Of course, you can blow 2 CP on one squad anyway, but that at least costs something.

Maybe the conscripts are still slightly better with those mechanics available. Either way, they are both way better than marine units, or even eldar infantry.

Realistically, as soon as you set up either scheme, you autowin vs any kind of assault list, except maybe berzerkers. That's incredible value.

Martel732 wrote:
It's both. That's how good IG models are. Leave them naked for one job, or copy the lascannon tactical scheme for a few of them. Either way, their main job is to take up space and slow down the enemy.

The same can be said about Scout-Snipers or Rangers; which as a bonus can plink characters without having to mulch through meat shields.

And realistically, the job isn't "to slow down the enemy" because there aren't many people running strictly assault lists. Most people are actually balancing assault with shooting and doing fairly well.

I'm not sure how good relying on psychic powers is to keep your morale running. Of course, you can blow 2 CP on one squad anyway, but that at least costs something.

So does bringing a Psyker. And it's not a question of "relying on psychic powers", it's plugging a gap that whiners like you created.

And I like how you mention "you can blow 2 CP on one squad anyway" as though that makes them all immune to morale tests. It doesn't. "Fight to the Death", the only Morale boosting Stratagem for the IG, is 1 CP for you to use a D3 rather than a D6 when making a Morale test for a unit that is required to make one.

Maybe the conscripts are still slightly better with those mechanics available. Either way, they are both way better than marine units, or even eldar infantry.

Rangers are comparable to Conscripts in quite a few ways; you don't hear people talking about Rangers being OP or broken in and of themselves. T

Realistically, as soon as you set up either scheme, you autowin vs any kind of assault list, except maybe berzerkers. That's incredible value.

Oh, you mean realistically you "autowin" against assault lists that are mostly still using index lists?
Wow. So great!

No, I'd say any non-Khorne assault lists. GK might as well not unpack. Assaulty vanilla marines, as well. The Khorne berserker is the only model with a chance to get through 100+ bodies before being wyverned off the table like a chump.

Last time I checked, IG still has access to insane bravery.

Rangers can't take up the real estate of a horde list. Giving the opponent zero deep strike locations can be very key.

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'd say any non-Khorne assault lists. GK might as well not unpack. Assaulty vanilla marines, as well. The Khorne berserker is the only model with a chance to get through 100+ bodies before being wyverned off the table like a chump.

Calling nonsense right now. Raven Guard gone assault heavy can work pretty well, same as Alpha Legion...
But see again about how "most people aren't going assault heavy", they tend to be skirting the line between assault and shooting.

Most of the "assault heavy" lists that I've personally seen had cheap troops to send in; Poxwalkers or the like.

Also: lol @ Wyverned off the table. S4 AP0 D1 48" range, with rerolls to Wound. Terrifying!

Last time I checked, IG still has access to insane bravery.

Yeah, but that's available to anyone. It's not IG specific.

"Also: lol @ Wyverned off the table. S4 AP0 D1 48" range, with rerolls to Wound. Terrifying!"

Actually, it is. You just don't see it because you don't care if your models die. The Wyvern is far more efficient against meqs than geqs due to costing of the models. That's why I fear it.

"Calling nonsense right now. Raven Guard gone assault heavy can work pretty well, same as Alpha Legion..."

They'll never chop through your 100+ bodies in time.