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2017/11/11 12:42:54
Subject: Re:Sonic the Genestealer - Gotta Go Fast!
Peregrine wrote: Welcome to the dumpster fire of 8th edition. Remember when people said it was going to be better than 7th?
Ah yes, the ability for genestealers to move really, really fast matches up to something like a 2++ rerolling invisible deathstar that features six different codex units together, free transports and wargear.. Yeah, apparently really really close! Genestealers really are pouring the gasoline into the dumpster right now!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/11 14:59:47
First off, this is brilliant. Hats off to the OP for sharing it.
Second, there is nothing here for anyone to get upset about. It's a perfect storm of situational rules and 2CP spent to get a unit without ranged attacks across the board, that is WORSE than deep striking them. They can't attack.
The only real point in doing it is to amuse yourself.
Azuza001 wrote: I don't think that's RAI, even if it is RAW. And I would let you do that to me once then just decline further games from you.
Point is, even if you find a loophole don't exploit it like that, it only ruins the game for everyone.
And likewise I would decline games from you.
What next, you're going to claim that Marines having a BS of 3+ is an "exploit"?
Azuza001 wrote: I don't think that's RAI, even if it is RAW. And I would let you do that to me once then just decline further games from you.
Point is, even if you find a loophole don't exploit it like that, it only ruins the game for everyone.
Why?
They're burning a load of command points to move their genestealers really far . . . and then giving you a turn to shoot them (since they can't assault afterwards).
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/11/11 15:51:23
Subject: Re:Sonic the Genestealer - Gotta Go Fast!
Peregrine wrote: Welcome to the dumpster fire of 8th edition. Remember when people said it was going to be better than 7th?
Ah yes, the ability for genestealers to move really, really fast matches up to something like a 2++ rerolling invisible deathstar that features six different codex units together, free transports and wargear.. Yeah, apparently really really close! Genestealers really are pouring the gasoline into the dumpster right now!
To be fair, 8th *does* still have its issues, and 2++, nontargetable characters, Smitespam, and a general lack of tournament lists that aren't soup or boasting Bobby G. Granted, GW has finally realized they should be patching unintended rule interactions, though they arguably first started doing this during the very tail-end of 7th (Battle Brother Transports, "How do Drop Pod Doors work", etc).
That said, this thread was mostly to highlight the goofiness of the RAW for Advancing ("Add to the Movement characteristic for that Movement Phase") and how it interacts with moving twice in the same phase. I don't doubt GW will patch it of course, but it's still quite funny for the time being.
2017/11/11 17:03:50
Subject: Re:Sonic the Genestealer - Gotta Go Fast!
Peregrine wrote: Welcome to the dumpster fire of 8th edition. Remember when people said it was going to be better than 7th?
Ah yes, the ability for genestealers to move really, really fast matches up to something like a 2++ rerolling invisible deathstar that features six different codex units together, free transports and wargear.. Yeah, apparently really really close! Genestealers really are pouring the gasoline into the dumpster right now!
To be fair, 8th *does* still have its issues, and 2++, nontargetable characters, Smitespam, and a general lack of tournament lists that aren't soup or boasting Bobby G. Granted, GW has finally realized they should be patching unintended rule interactions, though they arguably first started doing this during the very tail-end of 7th (Battle Brother Transports, "How do Drop Pod Doors work", etc).
That said, this thread was mostly to highlight the goofiness of the RAW for Advancing ("Add to the Movement characteristic for that Movement Phase") and how it interacts with moving twice in the same phase. I don't doubt GW will patch it of course, but it's still quite funny for the time being.
Oh I don't doubt 8th has it's issues.. I just wouldn't say it's anywhere near 7th's issues
pismakron wrote: That is pretty funny. Gamewise it is also pretty useless to speed around with your genestealers if you are not allowed to charge with them.
Eh if you needed to capture an Objective last second it might be worthwhile.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
What next, you're going to claim that Marines having a BS of 3+ is an "exploit"?
There is a huge difference between ignoring a printed stat (which is clearly correct RAI) and rejecting a rules-lawyering interpretation of a combo that is almost certainly not intended. It's absurd to suggest that the advance move gets permanently added to a model's movement stat, and then when they advance a second time they get to roll a second advance bonus and move up to their move speed + advance 1 + advance 2. The way it should work, and they way GW will almost certainly rule it, is that the second advance move gets a separate advance roll that replaces the first, and you move equal to your base speed plus the second roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Ah yes, the ability for genestealers to move really, really fast matches up to something like a 2++ rerolling invisible deathstar that features six different codex units together, free transports and wargear.. Yeah, apparently really really close! Genestealers really are pouring the gasoline into the dumpster right now!
It's the same problem: stacking up bonuses based on questionable interpretations of the rules and interactions that GW apparently didn't anticipate, to create effects that go way beyond the normal scope of the game. The invisible death star goes beyond the normal scope of durability, the genestealers go beyond the normal scope of movement. Same exact problem, just in a different form for a new edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/12 01:36:16
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
It's the same problem: stacking up bonuses based on questionable interpretations of the rules and interactions that GW apparently didn't anticipate, to create effects that go way beyond the normal scope of the game.
You have just defined a Bug. Every product has those.
Not saying this to defend GW, because we all know this is not a black or white situation (Videogame examples: You have Blizzard and their very polished games, that still have some bugs, and Bethesda with thier games that are a mesh full of bugs until weeks of months before launch). The problem is with how much of those GW has.
At least in 8h they seem more willing to fix them in a reasonable time frame.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Finally. Because for a while the lameness was "Move move move" on basic infantry allowing a potential 24" move for IG infantry. They could of course out distance jump packs, bikes, Iron striders, sentinels, jet bikes, and most everything else save some flyers.
Now I can picture the IG infantry man, after having dusted literally everybody else, approaching the finish line only to have roid-rage stealer take the checkered flag at the last instance.
Aside from last-minute objective-capping, other use for this speed trick (whether on Genestealers or other units) is either extreme bubblewrapping, or surrounding transports before shooting them with other units.
So, it had been awhile since I looked over the FAQ but I realized that the original version of Sonic the Genestealer didn't work, it's actually now theoretically possible to have a unit of Genestealers cover 104" of movement in a single turn.
First, they move 8 + 12 with Opportunistic Advance.
Then you use Hive Commander and Opportunistic Advance to propel them another 8 + 12.
Then you Charge 12. Pile in 3, Consolidate 3.
Use Adrenaline Surge to Pile in Another 3.
Use Overrun and Opportunistic Advance to move another 8+12.
Use Mind Eater to move another 20.
MagicJuggler wrote: So, it had been awhile since I looked over the FAQ but I realized that the original version of Sonic the Genestealer didn't work, it's actually now theoretically possible to have a unit of Genestealers cover 104" of movement in a single turn.
First, they move 8 + 12 with Opportunistic Advance. Then you use Hive Commander and Opportunistic Advance to propel them another 8 + 12. Then you Charge 12. Pile in 3, Consolidate 3. Use Adrenaline Surge to Pile in Another 3. Use Overrun and Opportunistic Advance to move another 8+12. Use Mind Eater to move another 20.
How fast can you go?
You can't use opportunistic advance outside of the movement phase.
Further, there is a ton of mental gymnastics and rules bending to make this happen. Piling in and consolidating is not in any direction you want. There would need to be all kinds of weird layering in your opponents force to make this even possible.
Mind eater requires your warlord slay a model, and then the genestealers would have to be within 3" of him. So in order to get alllll that way to use mind eater, you have to have a model already that far away. What a pointless, stupid contrivance this thread is.
And seriously, necroposting this garbage thread was a bad move.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 20:18:39
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
MagicJuggler wrote: So, it had been awhile since I looked over the FAQ but I realized that the original version of Sonic the Genestealer didn't work, it's actually now theoretically possible to have a unit of Genestealers cover 104" of movement in a single turn.
First, they move 8 + 12 with Opportunistic Advance.
Then you use Hive Commander and Opportunistic Advance to propel them another 8 + 12.
Then you Charge 12. Pile in 3, Consolidate 3.
Use Adrenaline Surge to Pile in Another 3.
Use Overrun and Opportunistic Advance to move another 8+12.
Use Mind Eater to move another 20.
How fast can you go?
You can't use opportunistic advance outside of the movement phase.
Further, there is a ton of mental gymnastics and rules bending to make this happen. Piling in and consolidating is not in any direction you want. There would need to be all kinds of weird layering in your opponents force to make this even possible.
Mind eater requires your warlord slay a model, and then the genestealers would have to be within 3" of him. So in order to get alllll that way to use mind eater, you have to have a model already that far away. What a pointless, stupid contrivance this thread is.
And seriously, necroposting this garbage thread was a bad move.
Actually, Opportunistic Advance can be used outside of those phases. Read the FAQ.
Opportunistic advance specifically says it can only be used in the movement phase. Odd they would put a rule change in an FAQ question. This should be an update to the stratagem itself.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Opportunistic advance specifically says it can only be used in the movement phase. Odd they would put a rule change in an FAQ question. This should be an update to the stratagem itself.
All three abilities let you "move as though it were the Movement Phase." The fact that they said yes to all cases implies that "as if it was the X phase" out-of-phase Stratagems can combine with phase-specific Stratagems and abilities, which really opens up a major can of worms.
Q: The rules for Advancing state that you roll a dice and add
the result to the Move characteristic of the models in the unit
‘for that Movement phase’. If, for whatever reason, I am able
to Advance and then move normally with a unit in the same
Movement phase, does the number I added to the unit’s Move
characteristic when it Advanced still apply when I make the
normal move with the unit? For example, I have a unit whose
Move characteristic is 6". It Advances, and I roll a 6, adding
that to its Move characteristic to make 12". If it moves again
in the same phase, its Move characteristic is still 12", so can it
move up to 12" when making this move?
A: Yes. Note that a unit cannot Advance more than once
in the same Movement phase, so the Move characteristic
of a unit can only be modified once in this manner
2000 Militarum Tempestus
Elbows wrote: I think it's pretty telling that almost no one on this board has ever stated or encountered people actually trying to pull off nonsense like this. So it really boils down to epeenery.
Drager wrote: I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.
-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
We investigated the ruins of Umbra, and found the aforementioned vox-recording where there presumably was once life. Our voidsuits showed a minimal sign of genocontamination; this alongside the pict-captures of a salvaged servo-skull have allowed us to piece together a more disturbing picture.
It appears that Kraken has a strain of Genestealers with spined backs, solid blue carapace, and locomotive adaptations that can best be described as running shoes. These Genestealers run so fast through an area, breaking the sound barrier and arguably distorting spacetime around them. At first, the Umbran Riflemen stared in confusion at the sight of the first wave of Genestealers running past them at speed that would leave even the most speed-obsessed of Orks in awe.
However, as if the Hive Mind was adapting to some strange idiosyncracy in reality, a second wave of these Genestealers ran through the Umbrans almost twice as fast, and when the dust had cleared, giblets and gore were all that remained. My Savant is noticing another unusual quirk: Although all Umbran Riflemen are given a golden ring upon initiation as a symbol of their ultimate debt to the Emperor, not a single one remained after the onslaught of the Kraken Genestealers.
-Unmentionable Horrors, Inquisitor Kryptmann
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/18 19:37:01
2018/04/18 20:13:03
Subject: Re:Sonic the Genestealer - Gotta Go Fast!
p5freak wrote: Actually its 110" when they pop out within 6" of their nodes.
No, they can't move any further after arriving from reserves using a node.
Yes they can. Using the hive Lord ability to move in the shooting phase plus opportunistic advance, and the other shenanigans magicjuggler said. But they can't move 110 as i said though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 03:49:03
2018/04/19 04:33:43
Subject: Re:Sonic the Genestealer - Gotta Go Fast!
p5freak wrote: Actually its 110" when they pop out within 6" of their nodes.
No, they can't move any further after arriving from reserves using a node.
Yes they can. Using the hive Lord ability to move in the shooting phase plus opportunistic advance, and the other shenanigans magicjuggler said. But they can't move 110 as i said though.
The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.).
...
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex: Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.
Drager wrote: I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.
-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
We investigated the ruins of Umbra, and found the aforementioned vox-recording where there presumably was once life. Our voidsuits showed a minimal sign of genocontamination; this alongside the pict-captures of a salvaged servo-skull have allowed us to piece together a more disturbing picture.
It appears that Kraken has a strain of Genestealers with spined backs, solid blue carapace, and locomotive adaptations that can best be described as running shoes. These Genestealers run so fast through an area, breaking the sound barrier and arguably distorting spacetime around them. At first, the Umbran Riflemen stared in confusion at the sight of the first wave of Genestealers running past them at speed that would leave even the most speed-obsessed of Orks in awe.
However, as if the Hive Mind was adapting to some strange idiosyncracy in reality, a second wave of these Genestealers ran through the Umbrans almost twice as fast, and when the dust had cleared, giblets and gore were all that remained. My Savant is noticing another unusual quirk: Although all Umbran Riflemen are given a golden ring upon initiation as a symbol of their ultimate debt to the Emperor, not a single one remained after the onslaught of the Kraken Genestealers.
-Unmentionable Horrors, Inquisitor Kryptmann
+++ADDENDUM TO PREVIOUS+++
+++Interrogation Log: Subject 34-A+++
- Subject is androgynous/ male, bald-headed, heavily built, with ursine cast to his features.
- In contravention of Decree Censorius Subject was arrested in possession of pict-recordings depicting incidents described above.
- Subject asked to explain what the xenos are doing in said picts. Subject replies "Rolling around at the speed of sound."
- Interrogator [REDACTED] asks Subject to elaborate. Subject looks at [REDACTED], smiles. "Got places to go, gotta follow my rainbow!"
- Subject leaps to his feet and attempts to go fast; trips, falls into table, catastrophic injuries inflicted to Subject's foreskull by table corner.
- Interrogation terminated.
+++Log ends+++
+++Thought For The Day: If Someone Tries To Touch You In A Place Or A Way That Makes You Feel Uncomfortable, That's No Good. The Emperor Protects.+++
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