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A point I haven't seen mentioned is that the Jormungandr stratagem allows you to put more units into reserve. This is done at deployment, allowing to react to your opponent's list and protect units from an alpha strike.

 Herodius wrote:
A point I haven't seen mentioned is that the Jormungandr stratagem allows you to put more units into reserve. This is done at deployment, allowing to react to your opponent's list and protect units from an alpha strike.

Yeah that is a benefit, the best thing i can see is you can pair up infantry like a broodlord with genestealers to get the aura/buff.

 Niiai wrote:

 winterman wrote:
Shouldn't be weighting the trait at the same level as the other items. Much larger percentage of why a fleet is good is due to the trait and how it works within a list, then the stratagems. Relics and warlord trait is a factor but not to the same degree. I mean its the only reason you have Hydra ranked second when it is arguably the worst and most situational hive fleet (especially for matched play).

Overall though ranking is a bit subjective and rather than ranking should be looking at what sort of builds take best advantage of the hive fleets. Because that is really what is important imo.

How on earth are hydra the worst hive fleet? We did use to get ouer units into combat long before kraken showed up, or the behemot charge. You know what we did not have? Tons and tons or re-rolls. Re-rolls is the next best thing to having actually more attacks. High elf swordmasters in fantasy had re-rolls, and we all remember how insane that was. Gulliman hands out re-rolls and that is very good. Now the best melee unit in the game has it as well. The genestealer has 4 attacks when you are many enough. Asuming at least one attack misses that is the equivelant of throwing 5 attack dices, even more if many of them misses. A genstealer is 12 points. It has rending. They will destroy anything they cole over exept ork boys. Do not disrespect hydra.

I said it was arguably worst of the 7 imo. Not that it was trash. And of course you missed my main point that the traits should be looked at based on the build.

Awesome, it makes stealers kill more. And hormagaunts. But it does nothing for every single model unit in the army like all our monsters, nothing at all. And is pretty situational for every other unit that might benefit from it like gants or warriors. Not to mention the effect even a couple of casualties has on getting that reroll against larger units. So if all you are taking is genestealers then sure look at hydra. I personally like a lot of other units so I want builds that make them all benefit and/or help me win missions.

 winterman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 winterman wrote:
Shouldn't be weighting the trait at the same level as the other items. Much larger percentage of why a fleet is good is due to the trait and how it works within a list, then the stratagems. Relics and warlord trait is a factor but not to the same degree. I mean its the only reason you have Hydra ranked second when it is arguably the worst and most situational hive fleet (especially for matched play).

Overall though ranking is a bit subjective and rather than ranking should be looking at what sort of builds take best advantage of the hive fleets. Because that is really what is important imo.

How on earth are hydra the worst hive fleet? We did use to get ouer units into combat long before kraken showed up, or the behemot charge. You know what we did not have? Tons and tons or re-rolls. Re-rolls is the next best thing to having actually more attacks. High elf swordmasters in fantasy had re-rolls, and we all remember how insane that was. Gulliman hands out re-rolls and that is very good. Now the best melee unit in the game has it as well. The genestealer has 4 attacks when you are many enough. Asuming at least one attack misses that is the equivelant of throwing 5 attack dices, even more if many of them misses. A genstealer is 12 points. It has rending. They will destroy anything they cole over exept ork boys. Do not disrespect hydra.

I said it was arguably worst of the 7 imo. Not that it was trash. And of course you missed my main point that the traits should be looked at based on the build.

Awesome, it makes stealers kill more. And hormagaunts. But it does nothing for every single model unit in the army like all our monsters, nothing at all. And is pretty situational for every other unit that might benefit from it like gants or warriors. Not to mention the effect even a couple of casualties has on getting that reroll against larger units. So if all you are taking is genestealers then sure look at hydra. I personally like a lot of other units so I want builds that make them all benefit and/or help me win missions.

Good points all around. I mean its hard to start breaking down how much I weigh each thing. its already subjective enough. Do I give the warlord trait 10%, 20%, does the HFA get 50%? etc... I mean I could, and I certainly see your point. It would be interesting to see. If you were to do it that way what would you do as far as breakdown % in each tier?

HFA - Definitely highest because it has potential to apply to the entire army, maybe like 50%
Stratagem - s2nd highest because hast the possibility to get multiple uses over course of game depending on the Stratagem, maybe like 25%
WLT- Prob about 15%, as it only buffs warlord generally, though a few can cast auros to other units. Also depends on what the warlord is.
Relic- probaly only about 10% as it only goes on 1 model, and even though may be uber powerful, in terms of how much impact on game it has, the amount of rolls and so forth, isn't going to be the Game Changer so to speak.

My 2 cents. I can play with the numbers and see how this changes things.

The problem is that measuring these things is not binary.

Kronos warlord trait is MASSIVELY better in some situations than any of the others, so much so that it makes it worth turning a whole detachment into Kronos if you are expecting to face psyker heavy armies.

I would never even consider running any hive fleet just for the WL trait EXCEPT Kronos.

Meanwhile Jorm's stratagem is totally list changing, and if I were to use a Jorm fleet, it would be almost solely because of that.

So you can't just say each part is worth a specific % of the ranking. You have to view the fleet in totality, and then you also have to view it in context of the army's available tools, weaknesses and meta.

This is why Leviathan, Gorgon and Hydra are all weak. They do not offer us something we need to shore up a weakness or enhance a strength where we need it.

Leviathan's durability is very much comparable to Jorms, but that's literally all it gives you. Jorm also has the strat which is the biggest allure of that fleet.

Gorgon helps us... kill stuff. Not something we generally have trouble with. Same for Hydra. Sure, those abilities would be nice, but the opportunity costs associated are too high to make them worth it. Killing stuff more easily is worthless if you have no ability to get to the killing.

Behemoth, Kraken and Jorm all offer good ways for us to enable our CC abilities. Kronos gaks on the psyker meta. These are the best fleets. The poll reflects this.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
The problem is that measuring these things is not binary.

Kronos warlord trait is MASSIVELY better in some situations than any of the others, so much so that it makes it worth turning a whole detachment into Kronos if you are expecting to face psyker heavy armies.

I would never even consider running any hive fleet just for the WL trait EXCEPT Kronos.

Agree, this is very good if you know you are going against pyskers list.

Leviathan's durability is very much comparable to Jorms, but that's literally all it gives you. Jorm also has the strat which is the biggest allure of that fleet.

Disagree, i think leviathan is better because you get the 6+++ FnP roll. Die roll cant be ignored/lost. Yeah its 16% chance, but you still get it. WIth the AP and ignore covers, and if you advance or charge you lose your cover bonus, where as with lLeviathan you can still advance/charge and still have the survivability. Plus, the FnP has a chance to negate mortal wounds.

Gorgon helps us... kill stuff. Not something we generally have trouble with. Same for Hydra. Sure, those abilities would be nice, but the opportunity costs associated are too high to make them worth it. Killing stuff more easily is worthless if you have no ability to get to the killing.

I like Gorgon, especially if you get the malanthrope Prey adaptation off.

Behemoth, Kraken and Jorm all offer good ways for us to enable our CC abilities. Kronos gaks on the psyker meta. These are the best fleets. The poll reflects this.

Behemoth is good for DS reroll charge, but actually the math very slightly (like 1%) favors just spending a CP and rerolling the lowest to get that 9" cahrge.
Kraken-fantastic
Jorm- Same problem with Behemoth, still DS units, still 9" charge.
Kronos-agree, great for pysker meta.

Weighted averages are below based on the folowing:
HFA = 50%
Stratagem = 25%
WLT = 15%
Relic = 10%

17.86% 1st Kraken
53.57% 2nd Hydra
54.29% 3rd Leviathan
60.00% 4th Gorgon
66.43% 5th Behemoth
70.00% 6th Kronos
76.43% 7th Jormungandr

Prior Ranking Based on even Weighting
0.857142857 1st Kraken
1.571428571 2nd Hyrdra
2.285714286 3rd Kronos
2.571428571 4th Leviathan
2.714285714 5th Gorgon
2.714285714 6th Behemoth
3.142857143 7th Jormungandr

So we see some changes in ranking, but not much. Interesting to see the Kronos drop so much. Definitely a situational fleet if you know your coming against pyskers.

If you are looking at Jorm as a way to deliver charging units I see the problem in your rankings. You are forgetting devilgants. Devilgants with 3 Raveners are insanely good, because they are a huge target that will get shot to hell if they are deployed. DS them in, always in cover, with a torrent of firepower. Raveners are not a major threat like a Trygon so you don't have to DS right at 9", you'll be just fine at 15" away and still lighting up fools. Also, Behemoth should always be an 8" charge let's be honest. Jorm offers us so much more tactical flexibility than Gordon/Hydra/Leviathan, in addition to a durability buff. Even if leviathans buff is slightly better defensively, it can't compare Stratagem wise. Tyranids are not a full shooty army. They are not a full CC army. The way that Tyranids win games is by being good but not great at both while being much more maneuverable than their opponent. Nids get into positions they're not supposed to, where an Ork horse is better in CC but just runs at you. Nids units are solid enough that I don't care about buffing their damage anymore. I want them off the table, appearing where needed, and reliably connecting. Jorm does this better than most other fleets.

If I were to rank the Hive fleets, I'd honestly do 1. Jorm 2. Kraken 3. Behemoth 4 Kronus. 5. Leviathan 6. Gorgon 7. Hydra. However, I still take a Lronus detachment because they are very valuable with a small number of units, just not as a full army.

 jifel wrote:
If you are looking at Jorm as a way to deliver charging units I see the problem in your rankings. You are forgetting devilgants. Devilgants with 3 Raveners are insanely good, because they are a huge target that will get shot to hell if they are deployed. DS them in, always in cover, with a torrent of firepower. Raveners are not a major threat like a Trygon so you don't have to DS right at 9", you'll be just fine at 15" away and still lighting up fools. Also, Behemoth should always be an 8" charge let's be honest. Jorm offers us so much more tactical flexibility than Gordon/Hydra/Leviathan, in addition to a durability buff.

For Behemoth you still have to take AG, on something like a Trygon its cheap enough, but if you are putting AG on a unit of GS with the tunnel that gets expensive quick. Even on an 8+ rerolling both dice is a 59% chance, where if you spend a CP to reroll the lowest to get in an 8 its a 69.9% chance. Better to spend the CP.

I like taking the trygon because it draws the fire, and if it lives, you got anti tank support with your devilgants. Raverners are just a cheaper taxi points wise that doesn't add anti tank support. If they kill the trygon instead of your gants you can just shoot (and possible doubletap again) next turn.

You can pop 30 devilgants with a trygon and do the same thing, its a tight fit but you save the CP. If you want more space, you can take a Lictor with Pheromone trails and get a 6" bubble, thats 12" diameter which is big! they will fit. If you are going to spend a CP to DS a unit, why waste your HFA on that? The only use I see for Jorm is if you want to take infantry over troops. But from what I've read/seen most people DS either Devilgants for the doubletap or Genestealers for the alphastrike.

I would rather just take the Trygon and double tap my devilgants and then use my genestealers to kraken advance, or my hormies with onslaught to kraken advance and get 1st turn charge, but you get to advance every turn with every unit, all game, so your HFA gets continuous use. Just my .02. I would love to see some Battlereports with Jormgunadr on youtube but can't find any. Maybe in time we shall see.

 Dynas wrote:

 jifel wrote:
If you are looking at Jorm as a way to deliver charging units I see the problem in your rankings. You are forgetting devilgants. Devilgants with 3 Raveners are insanely good, because they are a huge target that will get shot to hell if they are deployed. DS them in, always in cover, with a torrent of firepower. Raveners are not a major threat like a Trygon so you don't have to DS right at 9", you'll be just fine at 15" away and still lighting up fools. Also, Behemoth should always be an 8" charge let's be honest. Jorm offers us so much more tactical flexibility than Gordon/Hydra/Leviathan, in addition to a durability buff.

For Behemoth you still have to take AG, on something like a Trygon its cheap enough, but if you are putting AG on a unit of GS with the tunnel that gets expensive quick. Even on an 8+ rerolling both dice is a 59% chance, where if you spend a CP to reroll the lowest to get in an 8 its a 69.9% chance. Better to spend the CP.

I like taking the trygon because it draws the fire, and if it lives, you got anti tank support with your devilgants. Raverners are just a cheaper taxi points wise that doesn't add anti tank support. If they kill the trygon instead of your gants you can just shoot (and possible doubletap again) next turn.

You can pop 30 devilgants with a trygon and do the same thing, its a tight fit but you save the CP. If you want more space, you can take a Lictor with Pheromone trails and get a 6" bubble, thats 12" diameter which is big! they will fit. If you are going to spend a CP to DS a unit, why waste your HFA on that? The only use I see for Jorm is if you want to take infantry over troops. But from what I've read/seen most people DS either Devilgants for the doubletap or Genestealers for the alphastrike.

I would rather just take the Trygon and double tap my devilgants and then use my genestealers to kraken advance, or my hormies with onslaught to kraken advance and get 1st turn charge, but you get to advance every turn with every unit, all game, so your HFA gets continuous use. Just my .02. I would love to see some Battlereports with Jormgunadr on youtube but can't find any. Maybe in time we shall see.

Frontline did one with Reece playing Jormongandr...

 Dynas wrote:

 jifel wrote:
If you are looking at Jorm as a way to deliver charging units I see the problem in your rankings. You are forgetting devilgants. Devilgants with 3 Raveners are insanely good, because they are a huge target that will get shot to hell if they are deployed. DS them in, always in cover, with a torrent of firepower. Raveners are not a major threat like a Trygon so you don't have to DS right at 9", you'll be just fine at 15" away and still lighting up fools. Also, Behemoth should always be an 8" charge let's be honest. Jorm offers us so much more tactical flexibility than Gordon/Hydra/Leviathan, in addition to a durability buff.

For Behemoth you still have to take AG, on something like a Trygon its cheap enough, but if you are putting AG on a unit of GS with the tunnel that gets expensive quick. Even on an 8+ rerolling both dice is a 59% chance, where if you spend a CP to reroll the lowest to get in an 8 its a 69.9% chance. Better to spend the CP.

I like taking the trygon because it draws the fire, and if it lives, you got anti tank support with your devilgants. Raverners are just a cheaper taxi points wise that doesn't add anti tank support. If they kill the trygon instead of your gants you can just shoot (and possible doubletap again) next turn.

You can pop 30 devilgants with a trygon and do the same thing, its a tight fit but you save the CP. If you want more space, you can take a Lictor with Pheromone trails and get a 6" bubble, thats 12" diameter which is big! they will fit. If you are going to spend a CP to DS a unit, why waste your HFA on that? The only use I see for Jorm is if you want to take infantry over troops. But from what I've read/seen most people DS either Devilgants for the doubletap or Genestealers for the alphastrike.

I would rather just take the Trygon and double tap my devilgants and then use my genestealers to kraken advance, or my hormies with onslaught to kraken advance and get 1st turn charge, but you get to advance every turn with every unit, all game, so your HFA gets continuous use. Just my .02. I would love to see some Battlereports with Jormgunadr on youtube but can't find any. Maybe in time we shall see.

Jormungandr Devilgants also get the big advantage of ignoring cover if you take a Jormungandr Warlord. Slap a Neurothrope in the middle of them when they pop up with that trait and watch them go to town. Given how much of a pain removing bubble-wrap can be against some armies and how important it is for Tyranids to get through to the meaty units as quickly as possible, giving out Ignores Cover can make a big difference. Also, using Raveners to pop up units not only adds much more flexibility compared to the Trygon but you also importantly won't be sitting there worrying about having to make your points back on a Trygon that wants to get into combat. Raveners don't really care either way because they're cheap. You make it out like spending Command Points is a waste when Tyranids fill up Brigades than the vast majority of factions in the game, you should be rolling in them.

I simply can't agree with your rankings at all, unfortunately. Jormungandr can't seriously be considered the worst of the Hive Fleet Adaptations in a competitive context, its durability buff is usually better than Leviathan's (especially because you don't need to be near Synapse models to benefit from it), it offers a very nice Warlord Trait and gives more deployment flexibility than any other Hive Fleet. Ignores Cover is nowhere near as common as you make it out to be, and not having to worry about benefiting from cover via the normal methods means you don't need to get hamstrung on how to move your units around. Kraken is undeniably the most competitive at the moment because of how 40K is shaping up at the moment, but I strongly disagree with most of your other rankings, especially Hydra at #2. What does Hydra really offer a competitive Tyranid army that the other Hive Fleets don't already cover or make up for with better overall bonuses?

Jormungandr is rated second on the poll.

Kronos really is quite good, surprised it isn't number 2.

That warlord trait is a big middle finger to psychic armies.

 Marmatag wrote:
Jormungandr is rated second on the poll.

Kronos really is quite good, surprised it isn't number 2.

That warlord trait is a big middle finger to psychic armies.

Because it's specialized. Kronos is great against psychic armys. And nothing agaisnt Tau, Necons, SM that don't rely on psykers, a good chunk of nid lists, etc etc...

The fact that it's 3rd while being so specialized is surprising.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Jormungandr is rated second on the poll.

Kronos really is quite good, surprised it isn't number 2.

That warlord trait is a big middle finger to psychic armies.

Because it's specialized. Kronos is great against psychic armys. And nothing agaisnt Tau, Necons, SM that don't rely on psykers, a good chunk of nid lists, etc etc...

The fact that it's 3rd while being so specialized is surprising.

To me, Kronos is an ally that you include with a main fleet, not the meat and potatoes of your force. Kraken or Jormungandr seem best for that.

The poll allows multiple picks so its no surprise people are picking kronos.

Well, I voted for Hydra, since previous edition's Endless Swarm got me into collecting Tyranids (and their colour scheme just suits my Behemoth-colours). Yeah my main fleet is Behemoth (approximately 4000 points) and my opinion is that their re-roll on charges is way more better than described in this thread. My ranking would be; Behemoth (1), Hydra (2), Kronos (3), Gorgon (4), and fifth Kraken or Jormungandar. I play heavily on alpha strike, and I'm planning to mix hive fleets of four from my list.

Hydra is very difficult in smaller/casual games, but I think it could perform well in Apocalypse with bigger amount of points.

One cool combo is Gorgon Hive Tyrant with Toxin Sacs and The Reaper of Obliterax, inflicting a huge amount of damage.

Well, with apocalypse I suppose that could make sense, but its kind of silly to think competitively about apocalypse. It's just not meant to be a competitive format so take whatever you want.

Also, endless swarm is useless in matched play. Which again shines in apocalypse for narrative play.

Again, i think unless you have almost exclusively synapse or synapse-not-needed units i think mixing hive fleets is going to be either really rough on you or crippling.

 Marmatag wrote:
Jormungandr is rated second on the poll.

Kronos really is quite good, surprised it isn't number 2.

That warlord trait is a big middle finger to psychic armies.

If you were referring to my post, that's not what I was saying, I was talking specifically about the OP's own rankings.

I'm warming on Behemoth a bit as the alternative reinforcing detachment to Jormungandr, which you take is very meta dependent and I'm glad that we have a codex where most of the sub-factions are worth it in their own way competitively.

I think it's important to clarify whether we're talking single fleet or mixed. Some that would be bad at single are great for mixed.

I am looking at pure fleets. I know people argue both ways on mixing or not. FOr me its just a fluff reason, and not having to paint different units, but more of a fluff.

Now that the updates FAQ have come out, it seems Jorm got hit a bit. Cover save doesn't stack, and they lose it on DS. Curious to see if that would make anyone change their choice.

 Dynas wrote:
I am looking at pure fleets. I know people argue both ways on mixing or not. FOr me its just a fluff reason, and not having to paint different units, but more of a fluff.

Now that the updates FAQ have come out, it seems Jorm got hit a bit. Cover save doesn't stack, and they lose it on DS. Curious to see if that would make anyone change their choice.

As others said, the pool is broke as you can vote for more then 1.

I am looking at the FAQ, but im not seeing where Jorm looses it for deepstriking?

It was already assumed it doesn't stack, as it already says its treated as if it was in cover and cover has never stacked.

It does suck that it states "if the unit declares a charge" not "if the unit charges" as if they failed they would keep it, but its lost either way now regardless.

 Dynas wrote:
I am looking at pure fleets. I know people argue both ways on mixing or not. FOr me its just a fluff reason, and not having to paint different units, but more of a fluff.

Now that the updates FAQ have come out, it seems Jorm got hit a bit. Cover save doesn't stack, and they lose it on DS. Curious to see if that would make anyone change their choice.

Nothing has actually changed for Jorm.

They do not loose the benefit on deepstrike. They loose it if they advance or attempt a charge. Which is what everyone thought it was before when people were arguing over if attempting a charge still counted as charging. Also, Cover never could stack before. You either had cover or you didn't Jorms trait just gave you new criteria for gaining cover.

 Dynas wrote:

Now that the updates FAQ have come out, it seems Jorm got hit a bit. Cover save doesn't stack, and they lose it on DS. Curious to see if that would make anyone change their choice.

I don't think anyone was under the impression cover stacked (apart from whoever asked that question I suppose) and I don't see anything about the adaptation shutting off when deep striking. For me, the main strength of Jormungandr is that it plays to a combined arms style fairly well since most of its benefits are fairly universally useful regardless of whether the unit is shooting or melee oriented. Their stratagem offers a lot of deployment flexibility but is especially useful for support models that want to be amongst the front-line deep strikers but aren't worth shelling out for a Tyrannocyte (Brood Lords, Venomthropes, etc.).

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
I am looking at pure fleets. I know people argue both ways on mixing or not. FOr me its just a fluff reason, and not having to paint different units, but more of a fluff.

Now that the updates FAQ have come out, it seems Jorm got hit a bit. Cover save doesn't stack, and they lose it on DS. Curious to see if that would make anyone change their choice.

Nothing has actually changed for Jorm.

They do not loose the benefit on deepstrike. They loose it if they advance or attempt a charge. Which is what everyone thought it was before when people were arguing over if attempting a charge still counted as charging. Also, Cover never could stack before. You either had cover or you didn't Jorms trait just gave you new criteria for gaining cover.

To be fair, most of us assumed they were going to FAQ that you wouldn't get it for trying to charge, we were just pointing out the inconsistency in their verbiage. Which they made pretty clear by rewording the jorm rule, AND defining a unit that charged.

Ill change the poll to where you can only vote for one.

 Dynas wrote:
Ill change the poll to where you can only vote for one.

Why? Some think some of them are completely equal.