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Spetulhu wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Codex SOB from Wh40k 2nd edition is clear on one thing: the schola progenium used to be place where lots of debauchery happened (for the benefit of the priest in charge much more than the students/foster children), now they are extremely puritanical places.

Sadly, these aren't mutually exclusive. Schola Progenium are described as ultra-violent and competitive environment where young orphans are trained for a life of war, violence and perfect obediance. The drill abbots have the reputation to be harsh and brutal. In such a climate, sexual abuse and exploitation is bound to be rampant.

And I guess it's the students who are going to be punished for getting caught, if anyone is punished at all. Still, celibacy or not nuns with guns don't usually have time to engage in anything except the approved military drills, prayers and so on (kind of like marines with their 15 minutes free time every 24 hours).

A priest, on the other hand, would in my opinion often be required to marry because of the whole "multiply and take over the galaxy" schtick of the Emperor Cult. On a world that only exports soldiers it would probably be especially important, but any hive world where the factories need more workers is also a prime candidate for such an interpretation. You're not excused from breeding just because you have to give sermons and attend to other church functions.

Also you may be seen as a good role model to breed loyal and good imperial creed believing children.

Your Not getting much choice to get at it.

pm713 wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
I'm thinking that the only adeptus in the Imperium that'd be forced to celebasy is the mechanicus (who disdain all fleshly needs), the Astartes, the assasinorum, the Custodes and probably most importantly the psykers (including astropaths, navigators and battle psykers). Psykers are the single most regulated minority in the Imperium for pretty obvious reasons and I'd be very surprised if they where allowed to reproduce unscrutiniesed. Particularily the navigators.

Navigators definitely aren't celibate. That's how they make more navigators which is important because they need to replace navigators before they get too old whereas other psykers can just serve until they die.

I was under the impression that navigators are monopolised by the adeptus and that newborn navigators are more or less the property of the navigator houses. Iirc navigators only breed with other navigators to keep the navigator geene passed on. I guess it'd be difficult to reinforce seeing as every warp cappable ship litteraly needs one and you'd never be able to monitor them all. I guess with the third eye killing anyone that sees it the act of lovemaking would be... Difficult. I can't recall the source but I think navigators only breed with other navigators. I'll check 4the ed rulebook, might be there.

epronovost wrote:
Sadly, these aren't mutually exclusive. Schola Progenium are described as ultra-violent and competitive environment where young orphans are trained for a life of war, violence and perfect obediance. The drill abbots have the reputation to be harsh and brutal. In such a climate, sexual abuse and exploitation is bound to be rampant much like it was in religious boarding schools for orphans and Native Americans in the real world, a very dark chapter in my country history.

The thing is, the Codex fluff I was refering to is clear that this abuse and exploitation WAS happening BEFORE the reign of blood, and STOPPED happening AFTER the reign of blood. Now you can headcanon it however you want but that's how it is described in this codex.

 Nerak wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
I'm thinking that the only adeptus in the Imperium that'd be forced to celebasy is the mechanicus (who disdain all fleshly needs), the Astartes, the assasinorum, the Custodes and probably most importantly the psykers (including astropaths, navigators and battle psykers). Psykers are the single most regulated minority in the Imperium for pretty obvious reasons and I'd be very surprised if they where allowed to reproduce unscrutiniesed. Particularily the navigators.

Navigators definitely aren't celibate. That's how they make more navigators which is important because they need to replace navigators before they get too old whereas other psykers can just serve until they die.

I was under the impression that navigators are monopolised by the adeptus and that newborn navigators are more or less the property of the navigator houses. Iirc navigators only breed with other navigators to keep the navigator geene passed on. I guess it'd be difficult to reinforce seeing as every warp cappable ship litteraly needs one and you'd never be able to monitor them all. I guess with the third eye killing anyone that sees it the act of lovemaking would be... Difficult. I can't recall the source but I think navigators only breed with other navigators. I'll check 4the ed rulebook, might be there.

Pretty sure they do only do the deed with other navigators but I wouldn't call them property. They're members and get respect from their houses and get a lifestyle that generally goes with their houses rank. They seem fairly free for the Imperium considering they're only forced into arranged marriages and one career.

pm713 wrote:

 Nerak wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
I'm thinking that the only adeptus in the Imperium that'd be forced to celebasy is the mechanicus (who disdain all fleshly needs), the Astartes, the assasinorum, the Custodes and probably most importantly the psykers (including astropaths, navigators and battle psykers). Psykers are the single most regulated minority in the Imperium for pretty obvious reasons and I'd be very surprised if they where allowed to reproduce unscrutiniesed. Particularily the navigators.

Navigators definitely aren't celibate. That's how they make more navigators which is important because they need to replace navigators before they get too old whereas other psykers can just serve until they die.

I was under the impression that navigators are monopolised by the adeptus and that newborn navigators are more or less the property of the navigator houses. Iirc navigators only breed with other navigators to keep the navigator geene passed on. I guess it'd be difficult to reinforce seeing as every warp cappable ship litteraly needs one and you'd never be able to monitor them all. I guess with the third eye killing anyone that sees it the act of lovemaking would be... Difficult. I can't recall the source but I think navigators only breed with other navigators. I'll check 4the ed rulebook, might be there.

Pretty sure they do only do the deed with other navigators but I wouldn't call them property. They're members and get respect from their houses and get a lifestyle that generally goes with their houses rank. They seem fairly free for the Imperium considering they're only forced into arranged marriages and one career.

Navigator marriages are carefully selected to enhance the genetics and powers. There highly political and complex arrangements.

There no mere a ranged marriage. They are like negotiations between nation states of diffrent houses.

It depends on the world HOWEVER the general trend is no celibacy because the Imperium always needs more meat for the grinder. It's the holy duty of everyone to serve and reproduce, for the Imperium.

I would even hazard that Ecclesiarchal members have more children for this very reason.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Sadly, these aren't mutually exclusive. Schola Progenium are described as ultra-violent and competitive environment where young orphans are trained for a life of war, violence and perfect obediance. The drill abbots have the reputation to be harsh and brutal. In such a climate, sexual abuse and exploitation is bound to be rampant much like it was in religious boarding schools for orphans and Native Americans in the real world, a very dark chapter in my country history.

The thing is, the Codex fluff I was refering to is clear that this abuse and exploitation WAS happening BEFORE the reign of blood, and STOPPED happening AFTER the reign of blood. Now you can headcanon it however you want but that's how it is described in this codex.

It's still not mutally exclusive. After the Reign of Blood, the Ecclesiarchy was reformed many corrupted priests and their associates were purged and all insitutions under the perview of the Ecclesiarchy were subjected to tighter control which resulted in a lower incidence of sexual exploitation of children and young teenagers within Schola Progenium. Now they are only beaten, starved, brainwashed and broken down to then be rebuilt from the ground up. Sexual abuse still exists because the Imperium is full of people and that's the sort of thing people do when they have almost unlimited power over someone else.

 jhe90 wrote:
Navigator marriages are carefully selected to enhance the genetics and powers. There highly political and complex arrangements.

There no mere a ranged marriage. They are like negotiations between nation states of diffrent houses.

Aye, like marrying off the right princess to the right prince for maximum benefits to both houses. You WILL marry and you WILL have children with this person.

But there's no reason a Navigator couldn't keep some other company for fun. A female will probably be required to not get pregnant by an outsider, but a male having a few illegitimate children is usually no big deal in the realm of arranged marriages. They can always be schooled into loyal members of the House, or if the Navigator gene is passed on might even become a new Navigator asset for the House. Probably a less desirable marriage prospect for other Houses, but you need someone to pilot garbage transports too.

Or maybe select those "outside" consorts from this group so there's a greater chance the Navigator gene is passed on if there's children? It could even be a less important part of the deals between Houses, trading people that could have the gene in latent form?

epronovost wrote:
Sexual abuse still exists because the Imperium is full of people and that's the sort of thing people do when they have almost unlimited power over someone else.

That is your headcanon because it strikes you as logical, but this goes in contradiction to the fluff who states plainly that it doesn't happen anymore. If you think it doesn't make sense that it happens anymore, well, plenty of things in 40k doesn't make sense. You can always think of it as "The codex is just propaganda from the Imperial point of view" or "It happens in such a small scale that the codex ignore it".

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Sadly, these aren't mutually exclusive. Schola Progenium are described as ultra-violent and competitive environment where young orphans are trained for a life of war, violence and perfect obediance. The drill abbots have the reputation to be harsh and brutal. In such a climate, sexual abuse and exploitation is bound to be rampant much like it was in religious boarding schools for orphans and Native Americans in the real world, a very dark chapter in my country history.

The thing is, the Codex fluff I was refering to is clear that this abuse and exploitation WAS happening BEFORE the reign of blood, and STOPPED happening AFTER the reign of blood. Now you can headcanon it however you want but that's how it is described in this codex.

There is a difference between systemic abuse and random cases. Add to that the literal QUADRILLIONS of people in the Imperium.

Also this is a universe with literal rape daemons. And that's not including the mind rape. So, there is that.

I know that in the 2nd Ed. SOB codex there is heavy implication that Goge Vandire sexually exploited the Daughters of the Emperor when he turned them into the "Brides of the Emperor", and that it was this perversion that would eventually help the Brides to both see and condemn Vandire's corruption, killing him and eventually reforming back into the Daughters.

This original perversion has supposedly left the Sisters largely weary of sexual contact as a result, and supposedly has led to the majority being chaste as a result.

epronovost wrote:
Sexual abuse still exists because the Imperium is full of people and that's the sort of thing people do when they have almost unlimited power over someone else.

I'm sure it happens occasionally. But... I think a Schola Progenium tutor would have to be pretty stupid/reckless to abuse his students in unsanctioned ways, given that some of them are likely to eventually become inquisitors. That possibility makes it a somewhat different dynamic to real-world cases of abuse. If a former student comes back as an inquisitor and decides to burn his old tutor alive in the name of vengeance/justice, nothing can stop said inquisitor from doing that. The abusive tutor isn't going to get away with it by claiming the accusations are all lies. And given how long well-connected people in the Imperium can live (with rejuvenat treatments), any potential abusive tutor has to know it's almost certainly going to catch up with him eventually.

The only reliable way to "get away with it" would be for the tutor to murder any student he had abused before they could leave the Schola, which would likely be much harder to cover up than the actual abuse.

Would make for an interesting story, actually. Though I'm sure BL would never touch it.

I am tempted to name my female Ordo Malleus inquisitor "Korfmann", though.

There is mentions of ecclisharchy priests being celibate and we have no examples of married ones *yet*. The soritas and tech-priests seem to frown upon it but aren't strictly forbidden.

In the old fluff it was mentioned that Space Marines were incapable of the act, which explained why slanessh had to resort to art and noise to seduce them instead of plain old fashioned sex. Strangely, there is a certain (obviously lying) character that claims to be the son of a space marine in the first Gaunt's Ghosts book. Also complicating the issue, space wolves joke about sex quite often, and the nature of fenrisians means that many of them had children before their indoctrination at age 9 or 10. Think on that for a moment.

Sex is weird in the Grimdark.

Really weird.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
There is a difference between systemic abuse and random cases.

Just telling what the fluff says. Not sure if the thread was about random cases not mentioned anywhere in official fluff and which goes directly counter to what official fluff says.

Spetulhu wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Navigator marriages are carefully selected to enhance the genetics and powers. There highly political and complex arrangements.

There no mere a ranged marriage. They are like negotiations between nation states of diffrent houses.

Aye, like marrying off the right princess to the right prince for maximum benefits to both houses. You WILL marry and you WILL have children with this person.

But there's no reason a Navigator couldn't keep some other company for fun. A female will probably be required to not get pregnant by an outsider, but a male having a few illegitimate children is usually no big deal in the realm of arranged marriages. They can always be schooled into loyal members of the House, or if the Navigator gene is passed on might even become a new Navigator asset for the House. Probably a less desirable marriage prospect for other Houses, but you need someone to pilot garbage transports too.

Or maybe select those "outside" consorts from this group so there's a greater chance the Navigator gene is passed on if there's children? It could even be a less important part of the deals between Houses, trading people that could have the gene in latent form?

Aye. Well they know exactly why they doing it. Everyone knows it's political, genetic and for thr good of many not the couple.

In one Ragnar book, they basically seem to regard it more like a business transaction than a courtship.

Lastly, yeah I mean side relationships and other entertainments I'm sure are allowed as long as there discretion is maintained.

Given Navigator palaces are fortress nation states defended by Sheilds.armies, defense guns and more. One house even has space Marine honour guards who augment there already formidable military capabilities.

No one outside the Palace can get close. The island it self on Terra is a fortress and sourounding by a sea of toxic waste or somthing.

And with private estates and sites across the galaxy. Well anyone looking to engage in side activities could.

ChargerIIC wrote:There is mentions of ecclisharchy priests being celibate and we have no examples of married ones *yet*. The soritas and tech-priests seem to frown upon it but aren't strictly forbidden.

In the old fluff it was mentioned that Space Marines were incapable of the act, which explained why slanessh had to resort to art and noise to seduce them instead of plain old fashioned sex. Strangely, there is a certain (obviously lying) character that claims to be the son of a space marine in the first Gaunt's Ghosts book. Also complicating the issue, space wolves joke about sex quite often, and the nature of fenrisians means that many of them had children before their indoctrination at age 9 or 10. Think on that for a moment.

Sex is weird in the Grimdark.

Really weird.

Grim dark is grim dark.

Space wolves live in a hyper deadly environment. Also there wolf like nature may also mean they mature faster than regular humans?

 jhe90 wrote:

ChargerIIC wrote:There is mentions of ecclisharchy priests being celibate and we have no examples of married ones *yet*. The soritas and tech-priests seem to frown upon it but aren't strictly forbidden.

In the old fluff it was mentioned that Space Marines were incapable of the act, which explained why slanessh had to resort to art and noise to seduce them instead of plain old fashioned sex. Strangely, there is a certain (obviously lying) character that claims to be the son of a space marine in the first Gaunt's Ghosts book. Also complicating the issue, space wolves joke about sex quite often, and the nature of fenrisians means that many of them had children before their indoctrination at age 9 or 10. Think on that for a moment.

Sex is weird in the Grimdark.

Really weird.

Grim dark is grim dark.

Space wolves live in a hyper deadly environment. Also there wolf like nature may also mean they mature faster than regular humans?

On Catacha you're considered an adult at age 10. From a biological standpoint faster growth mutation makes sense on high mortality worlds. If you're only expected to live untill 40-ish chances are you'll have children earlier or go extinct.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
There is mentions of ecclisharchy priests being celibate and we have no examples of married ones *yet*. The soritas and tech-priests seem to frown upon it but aren't strictly forbidden.

In the old fluff it was mentioned that Space Marines were incapable of the act, which explained why slanessh had to resort to art and noise to seduce them instead of plain old fashioned sex. Strangely, there is a certain (obviously lying) character that claims to be the son of a space marine in the first Gaunt's Ghosts book. Also complicating the issue, space wolves joke about sex quite often, and the nature of fenrisians means that many of them had children before their indoctrination at age 9 or 10. Think on that for a moment.

Sex is weird in the Grimdark.

Really weird.

Space Wolves are generally inducted as young adults, not at ages 9 or 10. Children of that age would not even be capable of sexual reproduction, not to mention all the other crazy feats warriors have to manage before becoming eligible for Space Wolf recruitment. There is nothing weird about sex in 40k. It is not a topic that normally comes up in the fluff, so there is no reason to assume it is any different from sex in the real world.
Also, on a side note, adversity actually makes children develop more slowly rather than faster because the body has trouble producing enough growth hormones if it is struggling to survive.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, on a side note, adversity actually makes children develop more slowly rather than faster because the body has trouble producing enough growth hormones if it is struggling to survive.

Indeed, it's especially true for girls. Only 50 years ago the average age for the first menses of women was 17. Today, it's 11 years old. Adversity also augment the chances of misscarriage. Todat one out of 4 pregnancy end in misscarriage, most of them before the women even knew she was pregnant in the first place. Before modern medecine it was around 50%, some estimate that hunter-gatherers civilisation had rates up to 70% of misscarriage due to the enormous stress caused by nomadism on a women's body.

epronovost wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, on a side note, adversity actually makes children develop more slowly rather than faster because the body has trouble producing enough growth hormones if it is struggling to survive.

Indeed, it's especially true for girls. Only 50 years ago the average age for the first menses of women was 17. Today, it's 11 years old. Adversity also augment the chances of misscarriage. Todat one out of 4 pregnancy end in misscarriage, most of them before the women even knew she was pregnant in the first place. Before modern medecine it was around 50%, some estimate that hunter-gatherers civilisation had rates up to 70% of misscarriage due to the enormous stress caused by nomadism on a women's body.

I stand corrected. I guess the Catacha stuff is more cultural rather then actually being biologically ready to reproduce.

Worth noting that there is an entire part of the Adepta Sororitas the Orders Famulous that deals with arranging suitable marriages for the nobles of the Imperium.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Worth noting that there is an entire part of the Adepta Sororitas the Orders Famulous that deals with arranging suitable marriages for the nobles of the Imperium.

I can just imagine them making a program of this for the 1 minute of free time the average imperial citizen gets, "this time on navigator weddings...."

 john27 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Worth noting that there is an entire part of the Adepta Sororitas the Orders Famulous that deals with arranging suitable marriages for the nobles of the Imperium.

I can just imagine them making a program of this for the 1 minute of free time the average imperial citizen gets, "this time on navigator weddings...."

They might get a 10 minute break to celebrate the wedding of their planetary governor

 Mr Morden wrote:
Worth noting that there is an entire part of the Adepta Sororitas the Orders Famulous that deals with arranging suitable marriages for the nobles of the Imperium.

They are also in harge of giving to children private lessons and revieweing their finance to make sure there is no crooked deal. The Adeptas Sororitas must extraordinarly loved within hte Imperium, they are legendary war heroes, doctors without border, scholars and scribes. But these ones are those that must be hated. Who likes people snooping into their stuff and arranged marriage?

epronovost wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Worth noting that there is an entire part of the Adepta Sororitas the Orders Famulous that deals with arranging suitable marriages for the nobles of the Imperium.

They are also in harge of giving to children private lessons and revieweing their finance to make sure there is no crooked deal. The Adeptas Sororitas must extraordinarly loved within hte Imperium, they are legendary war heroes, doctors without border, scholars and scribes. But these ones are those that must be hated. Who likes people snooping into their stuff and arranged marriage?

Agreed to a certain degree

Re the Nobility and teaching children likely they would welcome it

“I love children, especially when they cry, for then someone takes them away.”

― Nancy Mitford

They may not even give birth themselves.

Arranging marriages - part of their life, brought up to expect it.

Finances may be a different thing but many of them would leave it to minions to do so anyway - so its likely not the nobles who are being checked up on but their staff. And if there is an issue - well its the staff's fault - right?

 ChargerIIC wrote:
There is mentions of ecclisharchy priests being celibate and we have no examples of married ones *yet*. The soritas and tech-priests seem to frown upon it but aren't strictly forbidden.

In the old fluff it was mentioned that Space Marines were incapable of the act, which explained why slanessh had to resort to art and noise to seduce them instead of plain old fashioned sex. Strangely, there is a certain (obviously lying) character that claims to be the son of a space marine in the first Gaunt's Ghosts book. Also complicating the issue, space wolves joke about sex quite often, and the nature of fenrisians means that many of them had children before their indoctrination at age 9 or 10. Think on that for a moment.

Sex is weird in the Grimdark.

Really weird.

Slaanesh is the god of excess, not the god of boning. Too much drugs, too much pain, too much sex, three thin layers of paint etc.

What are your sources on the Space Wolves having had children before their indoctrination?

I'm digging through my space wolf books. I'm looking for a story about the indoctrination of a new space wolf, including he and his archnemisis both being recruited. He's roughly 10 before he dies in battle, but he's already gotten laid by then.

The book's big theme was 'there are no wolves on fenris' but it was firmly in the 40k timeframe and dated before all this 30k stuff.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I'm digging through my space wolf books. I'm looking for a story about the indoctrination of a new space wolf, including he and his archnemisis both being recruited. He's roughly 10 before he dies in battle, but he's already gotten laid by then.

The book's big theme was 'there are no wolves on fenris' but it was firmly in the 40k timeframe and dated before all this 30k stuff.

The arch enemy bit sounds like the Ragnar books. IIRC Ragnar nearly got kicked out/killed over it.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I'm digging through my space wolf books. I'm looking for a story about the indoctrination of a new space wolf, including he and his archnemisis both being recruited. He's roughly 10 before he dies in battle, but he's already gotten laid by then.

The book's big theme was 'there are no wolves on fenris' but it was firmly in the 40k timeframe and dated before all this 30k stuff.

That sounds very much like Ragnar Blackmane's story, but Ragnar was in his late teens when he was recruited and as far as I know we got zero information on his sex life... If I remember correctly, he died before he could marry his girlfriend.
Also, I don't recall the phrase 'there are no wolves on Fenris' before the 30k stuff. The phrase was first used by Dan Abnett in Prospero Burns. Maybe you are confusing several different Space Wolf stories with one another?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I'm digging through my space wolf books. I'm looking for a story about the indoctrination of a new space wolf, including he and his archnemisis both being recruited. He's roughly 10 before he dies in battle, but he's already gotten laid by then.

The book's big theme was 'there are no wolves on fenris' but it was firmly in the 40k timeframe and dated before all this 30k stuff.

That sounds very much like Ragnar Blackmane's story, but Ragnar was in his late teens when he was recruited and as far as I know we got zero information on his sex life...
Also, I don't recall the phrase 'there are no wolves on Fenris' before the 30k stuff. The phrase was first used by Dan Abnett in Prospero Burns. Maybe you are confusing several different Space Wolf stories with one another?

From what I remember he was messing about with his crush and there was a time skip and they were being raided. So they probably did but we didn't get the scene written.