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 Manchu wrote:
BA Primaris aren't susceptible to the ... unique patrimony of their genefather yet but how long have they gone so far? (non-rhetorical question)

Just over 200 years in active service. Cawl stated there had been no relapses in the improved geneseed but he is not likely to admit to any imperfections. I think GW are leaving this open ended.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
BA Primaris aren't susceptible to the ... unique patrimony of their genefather yet but how long have they gone so far? (non-rhetorical question)

Just over 200 years in active service. Cawl stated there had been no relapses in the improved geneseed but he is not likely to admit to any imperfections. I think GW are leaving this open ended.

200 years not long in imperial terms.
They proven stable in short term, later generation Primias may not.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
BA Primaris aren't susceptible to the ... unique patrimony of their genefather yet but how long have they gone so far? (non-rhetorical question)

Just over 200 years in active service. Cawl stated there had been no relapses in the improved geneseed but he is not likely to admit to any imperfections. I think GW are leaving this open ended.

200 years not long in imperial terms.
They proven stable in short term, later generation Primias may not.

less then 200 as I understand it. the flaws in geneseed of the non primaris IIRC didn't show up this early eaither

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
BA Primaris aren't susceptible to the ... unique patrimony of their genefather yet but how long have they gone so far? (non-rhetorical question)

Just over 200 years in active service. Cawl stated there had been no relapses in the improved geneseed but he is not likely to admit to any imperfections. I think GW are leaving this open ended.

200 years not long in imperial terms.
They proven stable in short term, later generation Primias may not.

less then 200 as I understand it. the flaws in geneseed of the non primaris IIRC didn't show up this early eaither

Aye flaws where late crusade to Hersey etx.
So that means that least 2-3 centuries before flaws showed to any real degree.

BrianDavion wrote:
Accept them but keep Primaris out of the inner circle.

Except that is wrong, there are primaris in inner circle already.

I must say, I like the amount of salt among DA fanon fanboys primaris caused last year, and how they latched to Phil Kelly's offhand remark (despite him being pretty much worst GW author when it comes to lore, never mind his atrocious rules) about distrust and none of them bothered to read actual codex plainly stating the above

 Manchu wrote:
Let's not get too hung up on SWs being "natives" (a question in itself) of Fenris, considering that like all the Legions the original inductees were Terran.

There were Terrans, but Fenris DNA polluted geneseed so quickly by second founding SW couldn't spawn any other viable chapters despite Leman Russ wanting to do so (his whole plan was to surround Eye of Terror with SW offshoot fortresses). If Cawl has untainted SW genes from Terran stock, SW really need to not repeat that mistake and start to recruit from better places.

 Irbis wrote:
There were Terrans, but Fenris DNA polluted geneseed so quickly by second founding SW couldn't spawn any other viable chapters despite Leman Russ wanting to do so (his whole plan was to surround Eye of Terror with SW offshoot fortresses). If Cawl has untainted SW genes from Terran stock, SW really need to not repeat that mistake and start to recruit from better places.

I am pretty sure Logan would rather send his chapter into oblivion than disrespect his Primarch. If Russ comes back and slaps him and tells him to recruit from other worlds, fair enough.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
There were Terrans, but Fenris DNA polluted geneseed so quickly by second founding SW couldn't spawn any other viable chapters despite Leman Russ wanting to do so (his whole plan was to surround Eye of Terror with SW offshoot fortresses). If Cawl has untainted SW genes from Terran stock, SW really need to not repeat that mistake and start to recruit from better places.

I am pretty sure Logan would rather send his chapter into oblivion than disrespect his Primarch. If Russ comes back and slaps him and tells him to recruit from other worlds, fair enough.

But letting SW go extinct is pretty much the worst disrespect he can give, that being of a failure that abandoned sacred duty when alternative existed.

Especially seeing these Primaris have among their rank some of 30K Space Wolves, who arguably are better at determining what Russ would have wanted having met him.

 Irbis wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
There were Terrans, but Fenris DNA polluted geneseed so quickly by second founding SW couldn't spawn any other viable chapters despite Leman Russ wanting to do so (his whole plan was to surround Eye of Terror with SW offshoot fortresses). If Cawl has untainted SW genes from Terran stock, SW really need to not repeat that mistake and start to recruit from better places.

I am pretty sure Logan would rather send his chapter into oblivion than disrespect his Primarch. If Russ comes back and slaps him and tells him to recruit from other worlds, fair enough.

But letting SW go extinct is pretty much the worst disrespect he can give, that being of a failure that abandoned sacred duty when alternative existed.

Especially seeing these Primaris have among their rank some of 30K Space Wolves, who arguably are better at determining what Russ would have wanted having met him.

But the wolves are still alive. They apcepted primias and took them into chapter right?

They survived.
New primias can be trained like old school wolves to some degree and culture maintained just as now bigger, new marines.

Primas marine geneseed is very likely use able by more than just Fenris natives.

So I get that no chapter that wished to retain as much man power and fire power as possible would turn Cawl and RG and the primaris marines away, but is this really reflected on the table top? I’ve read posts on Dakka that say the primaris armies are not competitive...there’s a rager going on right now in “general” I believe. A bit interesting...but I’m glad that GW didn’t drop numarines that break the meta and the fluff (IMO).
Thanks for all the insights.

 Irbis wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
There were Terrans, but Fenris DNA polluted geneseed so quickly by second founding SW couldn't spawn any other viable chapters despite Leman Russ wanting to do so (his whole plan was to surround Eye of Terror with SW offshoot fortresses). If Cawl has untainted SW genes from Terran stock, SW really need to not repeat that mistake and start to recruit from better places.

I am pretty sure Logan would rather send his chapter into oblivion than disrespect his Primarch. If Russ comes back and slaps him and tells him to recruit from other worlds, fair enough.

But letting SW go extinct is pretty much the worst disrespect he can give, that being of a failure that abandoned sacred duty when alternative existed.

Especially seeing these Primaris have among their rank some of 30K Space Wolves, who arguably are better at determining what Russ would have wanted having met him.

They aren't Vlka Fenryka. They never had to survive the long winters of Fenris, they never had to see the Eye of Russ swell in the sky and their homes destroyed by the meteors and earthquakes. They were never chosen from the ranks of the valiant dead on the battlefield. They never had to walk back to the Fang, naked and alone, to pass though the Gates of Morkai and take his place as one of Russ's chosen. Better to die free than to live a slave.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lotus Corgi wrote:
So I get that no chapter that wished to retain as much man power and fire power as possible would turn Cawl and RG and the primaris marines away, but is this really reflected on the table top? I’ve read posts on Dakka that say the primaris armies are not competitive...there’s a rager going on right now in “general” I believe. A bit interesting...but I’m glad that GW didn’t drop numarines that break the meta and the fluff (IMO).
Thanks for all the insights.

GW are pulling a reverse-League of Legends. They are making Chadmarines underpowered, so no-one complains. Then when 9th edition rolls around, they will retire Tacticals from both the model line and the rules, making Tacticals "Index only" and have all the special characters upgraded to Primaris (as is able to happen fluffwise). All oldMarine rules and kits will be retired.

 Lotus Corgi wrote:
So I get that no chapter that wished to retain as much man power and fire power as possible would turn Cawl and RG and the primaris marines away, but is this really reflected on the table top? I’ve read posts on Dakka that say the primaris armies are not competitive...there’s a rager going on right now in “general” I believe. A bit interesting...but I’m glad that GW didn’t drop numarines that break the meta and the fluff (IMO).
Thanks for all the insights.

points costs are the big factor for us if things are OP or not, but consider from an in universe POV...

if you where told "you can take 100 space marines to this fight" would you take tac marines? or Primaris marines?

For those that say the new Marines will not come to the DA inner circle, I present...




If you follow Dark Angel lore, you will know that you do not don the robes in the chapter unless you are told some higher level secrets or are part of the inner circle. Generally Sergeants and above know to some extent the secrets of the chapter thus they don the robes. Lieutenants, primaris or not, are essentially Captains in waiting and as you can see on the Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah model, he is privy to the chapters secrets by note of donning the robes. And to be clear, there are different levels of the circle of trust the Dark Angels have in place before you reach inner circle(which include promotions from company to company as seen in the novel Ravenwing), and a Marine will wear robes to signify his status in the circle.

I'm curious to see if Primaris Captains will don the winged helms many other captains favor as a sign of their office.

revisting this BTW, it seems one reason for the Primaris acceptance was the Custodes accompanying Gulliman not openly supported them, but said they had the emperor's favor.

BrianDavion wrote:
revisting this BTW, it seems one reason for the Primaris acceptance was the Custodes accompanying Gulliman not openly supported them, but said they had the emperor's favor.

Plus if they never have it up. Well a custoes has the old powers similar to inquisition and are considered a direct representation of emparor.

So. They are immune to any orders and by default. Carry his authority. Anyone with them in escort has by extension the emparos favour.

No and none can unless they are traitors
Just read the custodies codex tells you in there that they went to the chapters and gave them to them by the emperor and any refused would be found traitor.

Remember custodies are only answerable to the emperor none above them they speak directly for the emperor
Even Papa smurf is not above them and can not give them orders.

10penceman wrote:
No and none can unless they are traitors
Just read the custodies codex tells you in there that they went to the chapters and gave them to them by the emperor and any refused would be found traitor.

Remember custodies are only answerable to the emperor none above them they speak directly for the emperor
Even Papa smurf is not above them and can not give them orders.

'
well not judged traitor but simply "one does not decline a gift from the emperor's own hand"

10penceman wrote:
No and none can unless they are traitors
Just read the custodies codex tells you in there that they went to the chapters and gave them to them by the emperor and any refused would be found traitor.

Remember custodies are only answerable to the emperor none above them they speak directly for the emperor
Even Papa smurf is not above them and can not give them orders.

Aye. They just follow his lead when it is political and stratagy wise adventagous. Which when a primarch is alot of the time be honest with current situation.

He still cannot order, but they do respect him somewhat, ernough that they follow him into battle in dark impirum.

Yeah. Only ones who can refuse a inquisitor and they cannot do a single thing against them. I don't see a chapter master arguing it no. The may also have the original powers to kill anyone they see fit as a enemy. Without recourse, even a inquisitor or high lord. (politcal problems aside)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

10penceman wrote:
No and none can unless they are traitors
Just read the custodies codex tells you in there that they went to the chapters and gave them to them by the emperor and any refused would be found traitor.

Remember custodies are only answerable to the emperor none above them they speak directly for the emperor
Even Papa smurf is not above them and can not give them orders.

'
well not judged traitor but simply "one does not decline a gift from the emperor's own hand"

That's basically a traitors confession.
They are the emparors emissary. They carry his authority. To refuse that is defenitely treason.

I'm been considering a army of custodes with some blue and fluffing them as a shield host deciated to guardian gulliman. this way I can deploy ewm beside my UMs no problem

In time all marines will be primaris marines, including chaos marines, and probably 30k marines. Inconsistencies and logical fallacies will be retconned away. The entire primaris marines fluff is a way for GW to gradually replace it's power armoured product line with marines of a more super-human scale. This process will take many years, so the old models will need to remain in production for a while. But in due time every single dude in power armour will be as tall as a Newmarine, will have multiple wounds and an easily trademarked name. And yes, that includes the Dank Angels.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm been considering a army of custodes with some blue and fluffing them as a shield host deciated to guardian gulliman. this way I can deploy ewm beside my UMs no problem

You can do that no problem anyway.

Even from a fluff standpoint, pretty sure Gulliman is going to be able to have some Custard Creams to hand for special missions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:
In time all marines will be primaris marines, including chaos marines, and probably 30k marines. Inconsistencies and logical fallacies will be retconned away. The entire primaris marines fluff is a way for GW to gradually replace it's power armoured product line with marines of a more super-human scale. This process will take many years, so the old models will need to remain in production for a while. But in due time every single dude in power armour will be as tall as a Newmarine, will have multiple wounds and an easily trademarked name. And yes, that includes the Dank Angels.

Agreed. I would not be surprised if 9th edition was a complete and total reset of the lore. They want to remove Slaanesh too.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm been considering a army of custodes with some blue and fluffing them as a shield host deciated to guardian gulliman. this way I can deploy ewm beside my UMs no problem

You can do that no problem anyway.

Even from a fluff standpoint, pretty sure Gulliman is going to be able to have some Custard Creams to hand for special missions.

ohh he will I just like the idea of a specific shield host.

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm been considering a army of custodes with some blue and fluffing them as a shield host deciated to guardian gulliman. this way I can deploy ewm beside my UMs no problem

You can do that no problem anyway.

Even from a fluff standpoint, pretty sure Gulliman is going to be able to have some Custard Creams to hand for special missions.

ohh he will I just like the idea of a specific shield host.

At least make them Metallic Blue then Otherwise Kitten will be sad.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm been considering a army of custodes with some blue and fluffing them as a shield host deciated to guardian gulliman. this way I can deploy ewm beside my UMs no problem

You can do that no problem anyway.

Even from a fluff standpoint, pretty sure Gulliman is going to be able to have some Custard Creams to hand for special missions.

ohh he will I just like the idea of a specific shield host.

At least make them Metallic Blue then Otherwise Kitten will be sad.

I was thinking blue cloth actually.

In Dark Imperium, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior mention that Primaris Marines had a 96% acceptance rate with chapters. Of the founding chapters it seems to be 100%. Guilliman basically played the statesman.card and said “Ah I see you diverged from the codex Astartes... that’s fine. If you hadn’t the entire galaxy would have been Lost centuries ago.”

There was a story a friend of mine read where Guilliman found out that Dorn had created the Last Wall protocol, where all his successor chapters would form together for a Legion strength defense of Terra. His response was “That’s a good idea.”

Guilliman gets a lot of hate from fans because of how authors have deified him and how he created the Codex Astartes. The last Crusade was an Apology Tour where he told everyone, yeah I was kind of a jerk.

 Rhomen wrote:
For those that say the new Marines will not come to the DA inner circle, I present...

Spoiler:

If you follow Dark Angel lore, you will know that you do not don the robes in the chapter unless you are told some higher level secrets or are part of the inner circle. Generally Sergeants and above know to some extent the secrets of the chapter thus they don the robes. Lieutenants, primaris or not, are essentially Captains in waiting and as you can see on the Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah model, he is privy to the chapters secrets by note of donning the robes. And to be clear, there are different levels of the circle of trust the Dark Angels have in place before you reach inner circle(which include promotions from company to company as seen in the novel Ravenwing), and a Marine will wear robes to signify his status in the circle.

I'm curious to see if Primaris Captains will don the winged helms many other captains favor as a sign of their office.

Well, people were arguing about the inner circle. Having robes is certainly not a sign of being part of the inner circle. That said, Primaris librarians have the inner circle keyword.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
There was a story a friend of mine read where Guilliman found out that Dorn had created the Last Wall protocol, where all his successor chapters would form together for a Legion strength defense of Terra. His response was “That’s a good idea.”

Was he still upset about Dorn's 5/10 "It was ok" review?

On a more serious note, happen to know the name of that story?

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
In Dark Imperium, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior mention that Primaris Marines had a 96% acceptance rate with chapters. Of the founding chapters it seems to be 100%. Guilliman basically played the statesman.card and said “Ah I see you diverged from the codex Astartes... that’s fine. If you hadn’t the entire galaxy would have been Lost centuries ago.”

There was a story a friend of mine read where Guilliman found out that Dorn had created the Last Wall protocol, where all his successor chapters would form together for a Legion strength defense of Terra. His response was “That’s a good idea.”

Guilliman gets a lot of hate from fans because of how authors have deified him and how he created the Codex Astartes. The last Crusade was an Apology Tour where he told everyone, yeah I was kind of a jerk.

not sure I agree with the "I was kind of a jerk" so much as "... yeah I came up with those ideas then, but the ideas need refinement clear" Gulliman NEVER belived in his own infaliability, the man was always matching theoreticals to praticals. refining what he did etc. I am convinced the thing that troubles him the MOST about the 41st millinium is in fact how dogmatic people took HIS rulings.

there is a good example of this in watchers on the throne. where the Custodes are sitting collecting dust on Terra. there is discussion on sending them out, but the biggest stumbling block is that the idea of modifying the document Gulliman set out to put them on Terra was anathema to too many

BrianDavion wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
In Dark Imperium, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior mention that Primaris Marines had a 96% acceptance rate with chapters. Of the founding chapters it seems to be 100%. Guilliman basically played the statesman.card and said “Ah I see you diverged from the codex Astartes... that’s fine. If you hadn’t the entire galaxy would have been Lost centuries ago.”

There was a story a friend of mine read where Guilliman found out that Dorn had created the Last Wall protocol, where all his successor chapters would form together for a Legion strength defense of Terra. His response was “That’s a good idea.”

Guilliman gets a lot of hate from fans because of how authors have deified him and how he created the Codex Astartes. The last Crusade was an Apology Tour where he told everyone, yeah I was kind of a jerk.

not sure I agree with the "I was kind of a jerk" so much as "... yeah I came up with those ideas then, but the ideas need refinement clear" Gulliman NEVER belived in his own infaliability, the man was always matching theoreticals to praticals. refining what he did etc. I am convinced the thing that troubles him the MOST about the 41st millinium is in fact how dogmatic people took HIS rulings.

there is a good example of this in watchers on the throne. where the Custodes are sitting collecting dust on Terra. there is discussion on sending them out, but the biggest stumbling block is that the idea of modifying the document Gulliman set out to put them on Terra was anathema to too many

The old edicts made by Primarchs took on the status of religious commands with the Primarchs filling the role of archangels to the Emperor's role as God. Only a similarly powerful figure could undo their commands, as to claim you know better than a Primarch can easily be argued to be hubris by one's political enemies. Prior to the return of Guilliman, there were no such figures of sufficient stature to undo his edicts, and seeking religious guidance for the will of the Emperor never brought clear enough answers to bring about consensus of opinion.

The following quote was by me, and I think describes the state of the Imperium prior to the return of Guilliman:

The Imperium can be likened to a ship stuck on autopilot. It is structured in such a way that the actions of local organizations and factions cancel out more or less in the big scheme. It a structure that reacts against and resists change, attempting to restore the old status quo. The only individuals that were capable through sheer force of charisma or power to enact change on a wide scale, such as the Emperor, the Primarchs, or Sebastian Thor (and it is debateable how much fundamental change he really accomplished), are all dead or otherwise out of action.

In a way that is more frightening and depressing. Not an Imperium that is actively malevolent or oppressive due to the actions of a few conscious individuals, but that is so as the result of the sum total of the ignorance and bigotry of all of humanity. To use the ship analogy, the ship of state isn't being steered into the iceberg by an evil or mad person. It is going to crash into the iceberg because everyone is fighting to be the one to turn the steering wheel and fighting to prevent anyone else from doing so.

A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference? Does he have an endgame? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still long enough to enact long term reform.

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
In Dark Imperium, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior mention that Primaris Marines had a 96% acceptance rate with chapters. Of the founding chapters it seems to be 100%. Guilliman basically played the statesman.card and said “Ah I see you diverged from the codex Astartes... that’s fine. If you hadn’t the entire galaxy would have been Lost centuries ago.”

There was a story a friend of mine read where Guilliman found out that Dorn had created the Last Wall protocol, where all his successor chapters would form together for a Legion strength defense of Terra. His response was “That’s a good idea.”

Guilliman gets a lot of hate from fans because of how authors have deified him and how he created the Codex Astartes. The last Crusade was an Apology Tour where he told everyone, yeah I was kind of a jerk.

not sure I agree with the "I was kind of a jerk" so much as "... yeah I came up with those ideas then, but the ideas need refinement clear" Gulliman NEVER belived in his own infaliability, the man was always matching theoreticals to praticals. refining what he did etc. I am convinced the thing that troubles him the MOST about the 41st millinium is in fact how dogmatic people took HIS rulings.

there is a good example of this in watchers on the throne. where the Custodes are sitting collecting dust on Terra. there is discussion on sending them out, but the biggest stumbling block is that the idea of modifying the document Gulliman set out to put them on Terra was anathema to too many

The old edicts made by Primarchs took on the status of religious commands with the Primarchs filling the role of archangels to the Emperor's role as God. Only a similarly powerful figure could undo their commands, as to claim you know better than a Primarch can easily be argued to be hubris by one's political enemies. Prior to the return of Guilliman, there were no such figures of sufficient stature to undo his edicts, and seeking religious guidance for the will of the Emperor never brought clear enough answers to bring about consensus of opinion.

The following quote was by me, and I think describes the state of the Imperium prior to the return of Guilliman:

The Imperium can be likened to a ship stuck on autopilot. It is structured in such a way that the actions of local organizations and factions cancel out more or less in the big scheme. It a structure that reacts against and resists change, attempting to restore the old status quo. The only individuals that were capable through sheer force of charisma or power to enact change on a wide scale, such as the Emperor, the Primarchs, or Sebastian Thor (and it is debateable how much fundamental change he really accomplished), are all dead or otherwise out of action.

In a way that is more frightening and depressing. Not an Imperium that is actively malevolent or oppressive due to the actions of a few conscious individuals, but that is so as the result of the sum total of the ignorance and bigotry of all of humanity. To use the ship analogy, the ship of state isn't being steered into the iceberg by an evil or mad person. It is going to crash into the iceberg because everyone is fighting to be the one to turn the steering wheel and fighting to prevent anyone else from doing so.

A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference? Does he have an endgame? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still long enough to enact long term reform.

Yeah, the needing a Primarch to undo the rule makes sense, given the emparor is not able too reverse it.

If the custodes pushed it they maybe could use there we are the right hand of the emparor status and ignore but thats asuming alot. There top ranking officer agreed and ratified the deal, aka the captain general, and probbly 3 surviving tribunes from the war in the webway.

(Given there nature, they got to be badly mauled to be out of the fight, very badly)
anyway when the agreement was made in battles after heresey, the 10,000 had lost maybe 8-9000 in webway, battle of terra was menat to have some 50% of those remaining too wounded to fight and under medical care by some fluff i read somewhere/

they where not in any place to be dictating terms with some 5% -10%of there force total preciously combat capable forces ready. Even Valador a legandery hero, would be hard pressed to counter bargin primarchs who still mantained 100,000 plus legions like guliman

Iracundus wrote:



A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference? Does he have an endgame? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still long enough to enact long term reform.

Well, the very decision to re-estabilish the greater Ultrama may be seen as an attempt to reform the Imperium... replacing it, or at least providing a benchmark which has proven to function for well more than 10,000 years.