So... can women become custodes?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Crimson**

Custodians are not Space Marines. They may be somewhat similar, but they're made in different manner.

**BrianDavion**

Crimson wrote:
Custodians are not Space Marines. They may be somewhat similar, but they're made in different manner.

yup and still with our limited knowledge thus far, it suggests that no Fem ale custodes are not a thing eaither. questions been answered

**Turnip Jedi**

Crimson wrote:
Custodians are not Space Marines. They may be somewhat similar, but they're made in different manner.

but both by a Magic Space Wizard, which renders Trek level genetic gibberish even more amusing

**Crimson**

BrianDavion wrote:

yup and still with our limited knowledge thus far, it suggests that no Fem ale custodes are not a thing eaither. questions been answered

Unlike with the Space Marines, there is not a definite statement about their impossibility. As someone noted, this is like the Imperial Knights, when in the earlier codex it was stated that their pilots were recruited from sons of the nobles, but this was not a technical limitation, merely a tradition. And that got later changed anyway.

**Spinner**

The 40k universe is a deliberate wide-ranging sandbox with a fast and loose approach to canon. As long as there's no explicit 'that doesn't happen', odds are it does. I don't see any compelling reason for there not to be any women as Custodes.

**Frazzled**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Don't look at me like that someone had to ask!

As far as I can tell there's no fluff to indicate custodes can only be men, but as far as I can tell all the named ones are referred to as male.

Any insights?

Why not. Custodes are uber engineered bioenhanced mutations. Female is the base line genetically so no reason not to.
I'd imagine in clothing it would be impossible to tell the difference.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
They're also there to be converstationalists for the Emperor and companions.

What if he wants to talk about hair or fashion or boys?

And when I have to arrange Kyoto Secunda or her clone sister Kyoto Secunda Prime's hair they end up looking like they were attacked by an egg beater. If Mrs. Kyoto does it they get an elaborate thing with braids and top knots and bows.

So you can't tell me a guy styled those epic locks of his!

More seriously, the Warzone Valkries are 32mm and have spears...

Incontrovertible proof right there. Especially when the Emperor's Hairdressers Marine Chapter went missing in the warp, an Emprah's got to do what an EMprah's got to do.

**JamesY**

Crimson wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:
They are genetically engineered from scratch, right? Rather than humans that are transformed, like Space Marines. They probably don't have a gender.

No, they're made from normal human babies.

Not anymore. Master of Mankind describes the genetic engineering happening prior to birth; they are born with all the modifications.

**Engrenages**

JamesY wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:
They are genetically engineered from scratch, right? Rather than humans that are transformed, like Space Marines. They probably don't have a gender.

No, they're made from normal human babies.

Not anymore. Master of Mankind describes the genetic engineering happening prior to birth; they are born with all the modifications.

And yet, in that same Master of Mankind, in the very first chapter, Constantin Valdor is sent by the Emperor to kill a renegade unification era warlord and to capture her already born son in order to make him a Custode.

**Crimson**

JamesY wrote:

Not anymore. Master of Mankind describes the genetic engineering happening prior to birth; they are born with all the modifications.

That's not how the codex describes it. BL is again doing their own thing.

**Emissary**

JamesY wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:
They are genetically engineered from scratch, right? Rather than humans that are transformed, like Space Marines. They probably don't have a gender.

No, they're made from normal human babies.

Not anymore. Master of Mankind describes the genetic engineering happening prior to birth; they are born with all the modifications.

Master of mankind was written a year before the codex release and is set in the 31st millennium. The custodes codex is very clear that in the 41st that the children are taken as babies after birth to be made into custodes.

**Engrenages**

Emissary wrote:
JamesY wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:
They are genetically engineered from scratch, right? Rather than humans that are transformed, like Space Marines. They probably don't have a gender.

No, they're made from normal human babies.

Not anymore. Master of Mankind describes the genetic engineering happening prior to birth; they are born with all the modifications.

Master of mankind was written a year before the codex release and is set in the 31st millennium. The custodes codex is very clear that in the 41st that the children are taken as babies after birth to be made into custodes.

And the same is said in the first chapter of master of mankind, I can't remember the passage where it says that the Custode are modified pre-birth

**Adeptus Doritos**

You know what? I'm not seeing anything that says you can't.

Knock yourselves out.

Just go start gluing the damned heads on.

**ChargerIIC**

Emissary wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:
Interesting. I guess I always figured they were vat grown somehow, similar to the primarchs. But wow, so the emperor stole babies to make his bodyguards?

In any case, whatever genetic changes he made must have been pretty severe. And starting with babies, presumably even if you started with a girl baby the end result would look pretty much the same as if you started with a boy by the time they were fully grown. And I assume they can't reproduce.

Yeah, the custodes codex mentions that the nobility of Terra willingly give up their babies for the chance to become custodes. It's a matter of pride for them. The original custodes were made from the babies from conquered nobility. Each is individually made.

I wouldn't see why female toddlers couldn't be custodies, the only difference is whats inbetween their legs, unless the years before puberty are spent having them trained mentally, then the enhancement process begins

Except that it's not. The genitals are only one difference between men and women, even as babies. Even as infants, the difference in male and female testosterone is significant:

Male Female
Age: T Level (ng/dL): Age: T Level (ng/dL):
0-5 mo. 75-400 0-5 mo. 20-80
6 mos.-9 yrs. < 7-20 6 mos.-9 yrs. < 7-20
10-11 yrs. < 7-130 10-11 yrs. < 7-44
12-13 yrs. < 7-800 12-16 yrs. < 7-75
14 yrs. < 7-1,200
15-16 yrs. 100-1,200
17-18 yrs. 300-1,200 17-18 yrs. 20-75
19+ yrs. 240-950 19+ yrs. 20-75
Avg. adult male 270-1,070 Avg. adult female 15-70
30+ yrs. -1% per year

Even with significant gene overwriting that occurs to make custodes, why would you want to pretty much make a girl into a boy then amplify the effects to make a superhuman instead of just taking males outright and going from there? If you're going to spend significant resources to make something, you should start with the best initial ingredient possible for what you're after.

I see that the chart arguing that males have more male sex hormone than females. I'm not certain I understand the point.Is this on-topic in a method I'm not getting?

Are you arguing that Custodes Gene-editing requires large amounts of testerone?

Are you suggesting that estrogen is somehow detrimental to having your genes modified?

**Engrenages**

ChargerIIC wrote:
Emissary wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:
Interesting. I guess I always figured they were vat grown somehow, similar to the primarchs. But wow, so the emperor stole babies to make his bodyguards?

In any case, whatever genetic changes he made must have been pretty severe. And starting with babies, presumably even if you started with a girl baby the end result would look pretty much the same as if you started with a boy by the time they were fully grown. And I assume they can't reproduce.

Yeah, the custodes codex mentions that the nobility of Terra willingly give up their babies for the chance to become custodes. It's a matter of pride for them. The original custodes were made from the babies from conquered nobility. Each is individually made.

I wouldn't see why female toddlers couldn't be custodies, the only difference is whats inbetween their legs, unless the years before puberty are spent having them trained mentally, then the enhancement process begins

Except that it's not. The genitals are only one difference between men and women, even as babies. Even as infants, the difference in male and female testosterone is significant:

Male Female
Age: T Level (ng/dL): Age: T Level (ng/dL):
0-5 mo. 75-400 0-5 mo. 20-80
6 mos.-9 yrs. < 7-20 6 mos.-9 yrs. < 7-20
10-11 yrs. < 7-130 10-11 yrs. < 7-44
12-13 yrs. < 7-800 12-16 yrs. < 7-75
14 yrs. < 7-1,200
15-16 yrs. 100-1,200
17-18 yrs. 300-1,200 17-18 yrs. 20-75
19+ yrs. 240-950 19+ yrs. 20-75
Avg. adult male 270-1,070 Avg. adult female 15-70
30+ yrs. -1% per year

Even with significant gene overwriting that occurs to make custodes, why would you want to pretty much make a girl into a boy then amplify the effects to make a superhuman instead of just taking males outright and going from there? If you're going to spend significant resources to make something, you should start with the best initial ingredient possible for what you're after.

I see that the chart arguing that males have more male sex hormone than females. I'm not certain I understand the point.Did the mention of sex differences just trigger you or is this on-topic in a method I'm not getting?

Are you arguing that Custodes Gene-editing requires large amounts of testerone?

Are you suggesting that estrogen is somehow detrimental to having your genes modified?

I think he merely implies that testosterone is better than oestrogens when it comes to creating biological killing machines.

**Spetulhu**

Engrenages wrote:
I think he merely implies that testosterone is better than oestrogens when it comes to creating biological killing machines.

On the other hand, Custodes aren't just killing machines. They have a host of other duties, some of which might be better handled by a woman if you're min-maxing anything else than killing machine potential. The Custodes are also custom-made from selected children.

In any case I don't see the marine no-females thing as anything to do with it being too difficult or inefficient for Emps to handle, it's just a matter of adding another control to the potentially unruly little buggers. They HAVE to protect the civilians on their recruiting world, especially women of child-bearing age, or they're out of recruits. So if they think about it it actually takes just as long (or longer) to make a marine as it takes to produce a Custodes. A child has to be conceived, one compatible with the geneseed, and that child has to survive to recruiting age (10-12) before the marines can take him and spend another 8 years on fully changing and training him.

**Engrenages**

Spetulhu wrote:
Engrenages wrote:
I think he merely implies that testosterone is better than oestrogens when it comes to creating biological killing machines.

On the other hand, Custodes aren't just killing machines. They have a host of other duties, some of which might be better handled by a woman if you're min-maxing anything else than killing machine potential. The Custodes are also custom-made from selected children.

In any case I don't see the marine no-females thing as anything to do with it being too difficult or inefficient for Emps to handle, it's just a matter of adding another control to the potentially unruly little buggers. They HAVE to protect the civilians on their recruiting world, especially women of child-bearing age, or they're out of recruits. So if they think about it it actually takes just as long (or longer) to make a marine as it takes to produce a Custodes. A child has to be conceived, one compatible with the geneseed, and that child has to survive to recruiting age (10-12) before the marines can take him and spend another 8 years on fully changing and training him.

Indeed, but the Emperor might not have a high opinion of women in general, as he dismisses Malcador's Idea of female Primarchs into the mix (precisely to balance the min-max of the siblings) as a joke. It might explain why we don't have female marines/custodes.

**Galas**

Formosa wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Formosa wrote:

Yep, just like you and everyone else, I also get to decide that I'm tired of seeing "can females be space marines" crop up every week, and I also get to decide if I want to express that it's the same old nonsense that keeps degenerating and getting locked, and is a waste of people's time when the search bar exists.

So yep, I'm expressing my annoyance at yet another "can x be y" when we already know the answer.

This was not about the Space Marines, we really don't know the answer, and even if it was and we did, why you need to come to troll the topic? If you're tired of the topic then don't click it. Furthermore, the degeneration you were worried about is caused by you. Self fulfilling prophecy much?

Custodians are advanced space marines, a much more refined process, so yes, we already have the answer, they can't, there we go, done.

As Custodes pre-date both Space Marines and Thunder Warriors wouldn't be more correct to refer to those two types of super-soldiers as "Inferior Custodes"?

I remember I asked this a couple months ago before the Custodes Codex, because I did wanted to have the historical Jeanne D'Arc as a Custodian. Sadly the Emperor didn't did Custodes in that time so it was impossible from a background point of view, and I haven't really find a proper armoured female model that could be the basis for a conversion of a female custodian.

**jhe90**

Spetulhu wrote:
Engrenages wrote:
I think he merely implies that testosterone is better than oestrogens when it comes to creating biological killing machines.

On the other hand, Custodes aren't just killing machines. They have a host of other duties, some of which might be better handled by a woman if you're min-maxing anything else than killing machine potential. The Custodes are also custom-made from selected children.

In any case I don't see the marine no-females thing as anything to do with it being too difficult or inefficient for Emps to handle, it's just a matter of adding another control to the potentially unruly little buggers. They HAVE to protect the civilians on their recruiting world, especially women of child-bearing age, or they're out of recruits. So if they think about it it actually takes just as long (or longer) to make a marine as it takes to produce a Custodes. A child has to be conceived, one compatible with the geneseed, and that child has to survive to recruiting age (10-12) before the marines can take him and spend another 8 years on fully changing and training him.

Custodes require more time and resources that create Infact.
There expensive, and have to start from basically a baby. They only take the best, most comparable from Terra.

With pure geneseed and skills you can make marines up to 15-16 in HH.

A marine can be trained and started from a older child to young teanager.still need right genetics but they Don t need to start as early.

Custodes also have more extensive mind conditioning and education in all aspects from policical to warfare.

A marine is mostly trained to specialise in war.

**Octopoid**

Nevermind, not worth it

**SirWeeble**

I wouldn't see an issue with female custodes fluff-wise. Their lore isn't as well established as Space Marines.

I would think they'd be massive and buff like normal custodes. Not shaped like normal humans.

**licclerich**

Of course not...if so they would want to be let out of the kitchen, own their businesses and even vote........can you imagine the chaos it would cause.

**darkcloak**

licclerich wrote:
Of course not...if so they would want to be let out of the kitchen, own their businesses and even vote........can you imagine the chaos it would cause.

What's next? The Emperor is a woman?

**Turnip Jedi**

darkcloak wrote:
licclerich wrote:
Of course not...if so they would want to be let out of the kitchen, own their businesses and even vote........can you imagine the chaos it would cause.

What's next? The Emperor is a woman?

maybe partially, I'd suspect at least some of the psykers who suicided to create the Big E would have been of the lady type (if that is still the origin)

**dkoz**

Who cares? Why should this even be an issue?

**Crimson Devil**

In the Grim Darkness of the future there is only sausage.

**jhe90**

Crimson Devil wrote:
In the Grim Darkness of the future there is only sausage.

Bacon, egg, some fired bread, a fried egg, and a mug of tea will do.

**stratigo**

Formosa wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Formosa wrote:
ergh, not this nonsense again :/

You know, you didn't have to click the thread.

You know, they didn't have to make the thread.
And you get to decide what threads are made?

Yep, just like you and everyone else, I also get to decide that I'm tired of seeing "can females be space marines" crop up every week, and I also get to decide if I want to express that it's the same old nonsense that keeps degenerating and getting locked, and is a waste of people's time when the search bar exists.

So yep, I'm expressing my annoyance at yet another "can x be y" when we already know the answer.

what answer do you think we know.

You do realize custodes are not space marines right? They aren't made the same way. Sorry if that blows your mind. They aren't made in remotely the same way. Read your fluff please

**Alpharius**

Started to prune and delete posts...

But there's too many OFF TOPIC, LULZ and RULE #1 posts - thread locked.