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Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







Yes and by having less attacks you actually have to focus on the linchpins of an army. By having less firepower, people actually have units to react with on turn 3 or 4.

By having less firepower, vehicles actually have a place in moving parts of an army around.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Quickjager wrote:
Yes and by having less attacks you actually have to focus on the linchpins of an army. By having less firepower, people actually have units to react with on turn 3 or 4.

By having less firepower, vehicles actually have a place in moving parts of an army around.


sometimes I don't care about vechiles like Lascannons because why would i bring a 1 shot weapon on an expensive hunk of plastic that might miss that 1 shot when i can take a team of lots of fire that's more likely to do mor ehits and wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 admironheart wrote:
Oh I was the guy at a Gamesday KING of the HILL where each player had 1 vehicle with no upgrades.

6 players on a small table.

Players took Basilisks, Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts, etc.

I took a Squat Rhino....it was armed with Storm Bolter.....no way to damage anything.

I was the only one who survived 3 turns on the hill and won some great prizes.

If you have hundreds of dice the game becomes a lot more predictable and dull.

I love challenging opponents. I love challenging situations and I love beating the odds.
A unit of Guardsmen shooting 40 times, Rerolling a dozen more, Wounding 35+ times, rerolling some of that at times, The target unit rolling 20 saves and then rolling 5 FNP.

100+ dice and then move to the next unit.

Where is moving out of cover, setting up crossing fire....sending out a bait unit to draw out the enemy or make them come out of Going to Ground/Overwatch or whatever.

There is so little tactical game play...its just point and shoot and roll a bucket of dice.

I remember a game that caught the wonder of the fluff and a satisfying sense of tactics. Now it seems line em up like Napoleon tactics roll dice....you win or lose.....dull and plays to a simple mindset. The game can be more....but the players have to demand it ....not accept the big bucket of dice to make them go Rawwrrr ...Look at my cool model with 50 attacks....bwah bwah bwah.



How did you win?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 11:44:35


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

I would like to see less dice rolling and more auto successes... For example the IG medic. Just double the cost and make him automatically heal a wound instead of 4+ (no change to overall points effectiveness, faster to use).
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

 lolman1c wrote:



How did you win?


Each round you were the only vehicle on the center hill you got a prize. I survived 3 rounds in a row. No one else made it more than 1 round. Probably about a dozen players or more were in that game. 6 at a time till you were eliminated.

Basilisk double shots, chaos dread tear attacks, etc....my poor lil rhino managed to keep alive and hold the hill...it was awesome.

::)))

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Marmatag wrote:
The GW dice app produces odd results. It's good for throwaway rolls, but if the battle hinges on it, even if it's a large roll, don't use the app. I don't like that the dice get rolled, then one dice is cocked, so it shakes the whole board and alters a bunch of dice.


I mean...it's not like the thing is actually rolling those dice. It's just generating random numbers between 1 and 6 and then showing them a pretty display so the meatsuits can understand what's happening.

Unless it actually DOES roll dice, at which point what a wasteful design.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Quickjager wrote:
Yes and by having less attacks you actually have to focus on the linchpins of an army. By having less firepower, people actually have units to react with on turn 3 or 4.

By having less firepower, vehicles actually have a place in moving parts of an army around.


The only one of these that doesn't always already happen is the turn 3-4 thing, and even then plenty of armies last that long just fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 03:14:09


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




I am not sure but it's like a rush. Rolling like 90 dice while ludicrous, is also a rush. Rolling one or two die is like playing monopoly. Rolling 10 or 20 or more dice just feels like power in your hand.

90 too much? 120 dice? Yeah but then again fielding an army that can do it, gives you some justification for painting all those minis lol.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 admironheart wrote:
 lolman1c wrote:



How did you win?


Each round you were the only vehicle on the center hill you got a prize. I survived 3 rounds in a row. No one else made it more than 1 round. Probably about a dozen players or more were in that game. 6 at a time till you were eliminated.

Basilisk double shots, chaos dread tear attacks, etc....my poor lil rhino managed to keep alive and hold the hill...it was awesome.

::)))



No, I mean how did you survive and they didn't? Did they just shoot at each other or what?
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






ERJAK wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
The GW dice app produces odd results. It's good for throwaway rolls, but if the battle hinges on it, even if it's a large roll, don't use the app. I don't like that the dice get rolled, then one dice is cocked, so it shakes the whole board and alters a bunch of dice.


I mean...it's not like the thing is actually rolling those dice. It's just generating random numbers between 1 and 6 and then showing them a pretty display so the meatsuits can understand what's happening.

Unless it actually DOES roll dice, at which point what a wasteful design.
It does roll dice, the app is a physics engine not a random number generator. Apparently it's casino ready, fully legit. Heard it on some podcast.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 hollow one wrote:
It does roll dice, the app is a physics engine not a random number generator. Apparently it's casino ready, fully legit. Heard it on some podcast.


What? Seriously? That's just stupid. A physics simulation is way more complicated and error-prone than a simple RNG with a pretty graphics overlay to present the results.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





World eaters berserkers are fun to play. They aren't very good but chucking huge amounts of dice at multiple units and watching them evaporate is very fun

3500
2000
3000
1500 
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






 Peregrine wrote:
 hollow one wrote:
It does roll dice, the app is a physics engine not a random number generator. Apparently it's casino ready, fully legit. Heard it on some podcast.


What? Seriously? That's just stupid. A physics simulation is way more complicated and error-prone than a simple RNG with a pretty graphics overlay to present the results.
Yeah but RNGs are not truly random, they often rely on some arbitrarily changing thing to spark the start of an algorithm (for example, they often use the time/date to kick off). It's certainly more effort to design a physics engine, but also more accurately random.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 hollow one wrote:
Yeah but RNGs are not truly random, they often rely on some arbitrarily changing thing to spark the start of an algorithm (for example, they often use the time/date to kick off).


This is a significant misunderstanding of the situation. Software RNGs are only "not random" in the purest mathematical sense, a fact which is interesting trivia for mathematicians and of practical use to a handful of cryptography experts. For all practical purposes they are truly random. The RNG seed is not something a user can predict or alter in any way, and the output of a RNG is indistinguishable from true randomness. The non-uniformity in manufacturing cheap plastic dice is almost certainly more of a factor than any RNG seed "problem" ever will be.

It's certainly more effort to design a physics engine, but also more accurately random.


No it isn't, because the physics simulation depends on a RNG at some point (think about where the origin point of the dice is set, they have to be randomly shaken and positioned before the on-table roll simulation starts). It's an entire layer of complicated software that introduces potential for bugs all over the place, compared to well-developed RNGs that you know will work.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut






This post is just a big ploy to hide the fact that OP's hands are the size of a GI Joe's, therefore cannot roll the MEATY DICE that 8th provides.

14,000 points!
 
   
Made in nl
Raging Ravener




@op: what happened this edition is that all twinlinked weapons instead gained twice the shots, and those shots became easily rerollable due to character/psychic buffs. For example, a twin heavy bolter effectively went from 3 rerollable shots to 6 rerollable shots (either full hit rerolls, or rerolls of 1 to hit and/or to wound). The most improved gun I know of is the twin assault cannon; from 4 rerollable shots to 12! This is just one aspect of 8th's increase in dice rolls, but I think it is a large factor.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






The random number of shots, psychic table, seize, warlord table, overwatch, random charge, random result table, random damage - there are SO many obvious places to downsize the number of rolls for the sake of the game.

It's just how utterly unnecessary it is.... Why have it be random when it can just be a set value.

You already have to make three rolls minimum for every action. Why even bother taking away damage table chart rolls for vehicles when it was the one random roll that actually made sense?

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm fine w/8th edition so far. I don't think there are too many dice in the game.
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






 Peregrine wrote:
 hollow one wrote:
Yeah but RNGs are not truly random, they often rely on some arbitrarily changing thing to spark the start of an algorithm (for example, they often use the time/date to kick off).


This is a significant misunderstanding of the situation. Software RNGs are only "not random" in the purest mathematical sense, a fact which is interesting trivia for mathematicians and of practical use to a handful of cryptography experts. For all practical purposes they are truly random. The RNG seed is not something a user can predict or alter in any way, and the output of a RNG is indistinguishable from true randomness. The non-uniformity in manufacturing cheap plastic dice is almost certainly more of a factor than any RNG seed "problem" ever will be.

It's certainly more effort to design a physics engine, but also more accurately random.


No it isn't, because the physics simulation depends on a RNG at some point (think about where the origin point of the dice is set, they have to be randomly shaken and positioned before the on-table roll simulation starts). It's an entire layer of complicated software that introduces potential for bugs all over the place, compared to well-developed RNGs that you know will work.
Yeah you're probably right, the physics engine might be more due to the spectacle of watching dice roll rather than producing a number. It might be difficult to artificially simulate rolling dice ending up at a random number that was pre-determined from an algorithm, but less difficult to have a phsyics engine produce an effectively random (or just simply not-biased) output while also showing dice rolling around on the screen.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Leicester

Hey all, thought I'd pitch in a few thoughts.

-The OP has a point, volume of fire has made the game a lot more bloody, and every unit ever seems to be loaded up on special rules to make each box sell better. maybe a return to simplicity would mark an interesting change. universal special rules, but few and far beyond. the game would lose some flavour but it gains.... Character.... at smaller levels.

is D6 killing 40k? a thread for another time... I don't personally see a huge problem, but a more precise system would perhaps be an improvement?

Y'all have a good day, happy easter nerds
GamerGuy
   
 
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