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 BaconCatBug wrote:

-1 for Alaitoc

-1 Conceal power

-1 Drain power

-1 Lightning-Fast Reactions Stratagem

-1 Warp Spider Flickerjump/Flyer Hard to Hit/Shimmerplume/Shiftshroud/Cameleoline Cloaks/Banshee Exarch (Notice a pattern here?)

-1 Moving Heavy/Advancing Assault penalty

-1 wounded by Baharroth

-3 from night fighting at 36"

Combine that with the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic and you can theoretically have a model suffering -11 to their hit roll.

Does anyone else thing Eldar really need to have their -1 to hits toned down? Or at least make a 6 always hit?

Ok, which means that if i'm assaulting you with multiple threats i can avoid most of those except maybe the stratagem?

Tailoring a list to counter long range shooting and then complaining that you have problems against it because you want to fight it only with long range shooting is...

Ive got to bite on this thread. Is it actually serious? The premise that all this can happen together (and even includes decisions made by the firing player) is laughable. -1 to hit modifiers a4e indeed a problem but threads like this are hyperbole

Bobug wrote:
Ive got to bite on this thread. Is it actually serious? The premise that all this can happen together (and even includes decisions made by the firing player) is laughable. -1 to hit modifiers a4e indeed a problem but threads like this are hyperbole

I'm not unconvinced that BCBs posts are satirical and he's making fun of the people who hate on 40k and go to extreme lengths to justify it. He's like that guy who keeps asking if X army is high tier but smarter.

This shows the premacy of the Eldar when compared with mankind.

 wuestenfux wrote:
This shows the premacy of the Eldar when compared with mankind.

All hail our new space elf overlords.

Drain only works in melee, how is a unit simultaneously in melee and 36" away? The same goes for the banshee earth's power. Also Baharroth's -1 only works in the eldar player's turn, so again only in melee. And you choosing to move/advance is somehow a thing the Eldar player does? And how are you moving/advancing and still ending up outside of 36"?

I could go on, but why bother. I did indeed notice a pattern. You didn't bother reading the actual rules and made a troll post with some low-grade bait. Shoo, go away you nasty troll.

Edit: unless satire, in which case well played

 BaconCatBug wrote:

-1 for Alaitoc

-1 Conceal power

-1 Drain power

-1 Lightning-Fast Reactions Stratagem

-1 Warp Spider Flickerjump/Flyer Hard to Hit/Shimmerplume/Shiftshroud/Cameleoline Cloaks/Banshee Exarch (Notice a pattern here?)

-1 Moving Heavy/Advancing Assault penalty

-1 wounded by Baharroth

-3 from night fighting at 36"

Combine that with the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic and you can theoretically have a model suffering -11 to their hit roll.

Does anyone else thing Eldar really need to have their -1 to hits toned down? Or at least make a 6 always hit?

Missleading Title, Eldar have soo many way to stack hit neg YES but up to -7 or -10 is blatantly a lie.

Half of those only work for melee, others only for shooting, and some are just unit specific.

Alaitoc shooting (beyond 12+)
Conceal shooting and psy power so only 1x manifest
Drain melee and psy power so only 1x manifest
Lighting fast reactions work for both but must be used on each phase so 2 cp just to use it
Flicker jump (warp spider only and for shooting)
Hard to Hit it's built in all flyers have that and all skyfire weapons are built to counter it.
Shimmerplume works for both Autarch only
Shifshroud Alaitoc character and only for shooting
Camaleonine Rangers only and for shooting
Banshee exarch only melee
wounded by Baharroth only in melee and in the same turn the units it's wounded

Heavy weapons and night figthing are map especific.
So in matched play Eldar may get a -2 as common in certain units or -3/-4 if he focus in keeping 1-2 extra unit alive.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Drain only works in melee, how is a unit simultaneously in melee and 36" away? The same goes for the banshee earth's power. Also Baharroth's -1 only works in the eldar player's turn, so again only in melee. And you choosing to move/advance is somehow a thing the Eldar player does? And how are you moving/advancing and still ending up outside of 36"?

I could go on, but why bother. I did indeed notice a pattern. You didn't bother reading the actual rules and made a troll post with some low-grade bait. Shoo, go away you nasty troll.

Edit: unless satire, in which case well played

2nd edit: rereading the post (and realising op is the rules guy) I have to say well played indeed, good sir

PiñaColada wrote:
I'm not sure if my thinking about how they should change the rule is achievable because it's too muddy/complex but here goes. Your opponent can never stack more than-1 to hit you, doesn't matter what combo they throw at you. You can still however be worse off if your own unit advanced/ fired both profiles. Meaning you could theoretically be at a -2/-3 but at that point it was a tactical decision and it's on you.

+1 for this, it makes a lot of sense

My Berzerkers can dish out 60 damage with only 5 guys. You just have to land every single hit and wound, and spend 3 Cp to attack a third time....But that doesn't happen, and neither does the scenario you're suggesting in your original post. Math hammer can suggets some hilarious outcomes, but it almost never happens.

orkswubwub wrote:
The easy solution honestly is just make the legion trait not apply to vehicles. I have no idea why eldar are the only race which get this bonus (I get not making all races the same but...)

<REMOVED> How could you have failed to notice that Guard, Nids, Daemons, Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar also get their bonuses on everything, it's only Space Marines that don't.

Edited for rule #1

 meleti wrote:
Being wounded by Bahrarroth is a big problem in 40k. I'm glad someone's finally talking about it.

I admit I chuckled when read that.

All -1 to hit army wide abilities need to go bye-bye.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
All -1 to hit army wide abilities need to go bye-bye.

I don't entirely agree. They serve a role in the meta. Limiting stacking or giving a couple armies the ability to ignore modifiers would go a long way to even it all out.

If you have to change the trait then make it like marine traits where it's infantry, bike, and dreads.

Thats a lot of things to be stacking or to have happen, thats like arguing that i always loose because i roll nothing but ones. Well yeah you can do it if all the stars align.

Im not a fan of hitting on 6s regardless, i just think that negatives should be capped at -2

So shoot something else.

I think -1 to hit should not stack.

It's a great ability.

But this is what happens when you get rid of USR's.

oops!

And Asurmen can do 30 wounds in a single round of CC. Clearly, CWE are OP because he's one-rounding Titans!

Let's just look at how this could all happen:
-1 for Alaitoc
-1 Conceal power
-1 Drain power
-1 Lightning-Fast Reactions Stratagem
-1 Warp Spider Flickerjump/Flyer Hard to Hit/Shimmerplume/Shiftshroud/Cameleoline Cloaks/Banshee Exarch (Notice a pattern here?)
-1 Moving Heavy/Advancing Assault penalty
-1 wounded by Baharroth
-3 from night fighting at 36"


So:
-Turn before, a Warlock casts Conceal on the Rangers
-Turn before, Baharoth wounded the unit *in CC*
-The unit falls back, but has fly/whatever, so it can shoot
-The unit has to be 36" away from the Rangers after they fall back
-The unit now needs to be firing heavy weapons
-The player then spends a CP on Lightning-Fast, because reasons

Obviously, Drain can't stack with Conceal/Alaitoc/Night Fighting.

If all that happens, and for some reason you're now shooting at Rangers from beyond the Ranger's max range during night fighting after falling back from being charged by a Phoenix Lord, you're now at a... -8? -9 for UM?

So the CWE player used a Phoenix Lord, a Warlock power, a CP, and now you're unhappy that some unit can't wipe out some super-stealthy unit from across the board after running away with unweildy weaponry? From outside that unit's max range? In the middle of night?

Seriously?

Why aren't you shooting Baharoth or something else?

Stacking penalties is a bit rediculous. I'd love a "6s always hit", and a nerf to the traits that grant the -1-to-hit. But you're overselling it.

I'm totally on board with the 6 is always a hit solution, it follows the same ethos of ensuring everything can wound everything regardless of strength.

Basically it sucks to feel like you are entirely helpless in a game because you have no chance to hit anything!

I disagree with everyone who says all the -1 to hit army-wide traits should be removed all together. They make perfect sense for the armies they have been given too.

However, something clearly needs to be fixed, so I have a suggestion for these traits:
-Make these Traits only apply to shooting outside 18", rather than 12".

The rule is still playable, but can be negated by quite a few more units. It keeps the trait strong for the first turn, but on later turn it can become nearly useless as many units need to get in that range to shoot/assault, and the enemy has the opportunity to get with in that range easily. This makes sense from a fluff standpoint as the positions of more targets become better known.

All the other "stackable" minus to hit penalties in the OP either have a cost in CPs/Warp charge or are so situational that it is laughable that someone would legitimately count them.
I mean, there is literally no situation in which a single unit can get that totally -7 to hit (or - 10) as several of those only apply to 1 unit.
How exactly is a Hemlock's Hard to Hit rule applying to a unit of Flicker jumping Warp Spiders again?

-

 Galef wrote:
I disagree with everyone who says all the -1 to hit army-wide traits should be removed all together. They make perfect sense for the armies they have been given too.

However, something clearly needs to be fixed, so I have a suggestion for these traits:
-Make these Traits only apply to shooting outside 18", rather than 12".

The rule is still playable, but can be negated by quite a few more units. It keeps the trait strong for the first turn, but on later turn it can become nearly useless as many units need to get in that range to shoot/assault, and the enemy has the opportunity to get with in that range easily. This makes sense from a fluff standpoint as the positions of more targets become better known.

All the other "stackable" minus to hit penalties in the OP either have a cost in CPs/Warp charge or are so situational that it is laughable that someone would legitimately count them.
I mean, there is literally no situation in which a single unit can get that totally -7 to hit (or - 10) as several of those only apply to 1 unit.
How exactly is a Hemlock's Hard to Hit rule applying to a unit of Flicker jumping Warp Spiders again?

-

I dont think removing the -1 to hit from an army is necessary, but whata does need to be acknowledged is that it is hands down the single most powerful army trait you cant take in any situation, especially with the amount of shooting alpha strike in the game. Then what happenes is you get the problem that is basically the biggest issue of 8th ed. There are really good units and options in the game, but there are options that are so good, there is no reason to utilize the other ones. Case in point for space marines. Imperial fists can ignore cover, thats a pretty big deal, but its not nearly as good as your army being -1 to hit. Just like eldar, sure there are decent heavy weapon units....but why take anything other then dark reapers. Sure i can have some cool chapter tactic....but why take any thing other then -1 to hit.

8th ed really homogonized the game because if you want any chance of being competitive you are pretty much shoe horned into a very small set of choices, not that that did not happen before, but it seems even worse now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
All -1 to hit army wide abilities need to go bye-bye.

I don't entirely agree. They serve a role in the meta. Limiting stacking or giving a couple armies the ability to ignore modifiers would go a long way to even it all out.

If you have to change the trait then make it like marine traits where it's infantry, bike, and dreads.

So, then it wouldn't be army wide. I think this is the first time we agree on something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I disagree with everyone who says all the -1 to hit army-wide traits should be removed all together. They make perfect sense for the armies they have been given too.

Ask an orc player how they feel about -1 to hit armies and their hard to hit flyers.

The key wording is army wide, you can still give it to select units.

you can also give a similar ability like Jormungand (spelling) from Nids

 Galas wrote:
BCB, sometimes I wonder myself.

Do you even play the game, or for you, playing is just reading books (Legal books of course ) and looking for strange things like this?

I do play, but I also like my games to be properly written. Sadly in 20+ years I've not had that luxury with 40k.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galas wrote:
BCB, sometimes I wonder myself.

Do you even play the game, or for you, playing is just reading books (Legal books of course ) and looking for strange things like this?

I do play, but I also like my games to be properly written. Sadly in 20+ years I've not had that luxury with 40k.

I dunno why you're getting so much flack for this post, I read it as you citing the most extreme example to highlight how absurd stacking of negative hit modifiers can get...

I would love to see what you make of some of the rule sets published by TooFatLardies though, you'd be like a pit bull vs a moomin!

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I disagree with everyone who says all the -1 to hit army-wide traits should be removed all together. They make perfect sense for the armies they have been given too.

Ask an orc player how they feel about -1 to hit armies and their hard to hit flyers.

The key wording is army wide, you can still give it to select units.

you can also give a similar ability like Jormungand (spelling) from Nids

This is why 6s should always hit. That would instantly fix Orks.
Also, by extending the range to ignore those traits from 12" to 18", Orks also get a buff since 90% of their shooting in 18" anyway and they are obviously an army that wants to be close.

-

So the point of this thread is that we need to bring back Invisibility, old flier "to hit" rules, and Skyfire?

Yeah, this thread is going nowhere constructive.

Well trolled

 Galef wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I disagree with everyone who says all the -1 to hit army-wide traits should be removed all together. They make perfect sense for the armies they have been given too.

Ask an orc player how they feel about -1 to hit armies and their hard to hit flyers.

The key wording is army wide, you can still give it to select units.

you can also give a similar ability like Jormungand (spelling) from Nids

This is why 6s should always hit. That would instantly fix Orks.
Also, by extending the range to ignore those traits from 12" to 18", Orks also get a buff since 90% of their shooting in 18" anyway and they are obviously an army that wants to be close.

-

Nah, this is why orks should go back to hitting on a 4+, just like in that other edition that used hit modifiers (2nd). Going from 5+ to 6+ is still a 50% drop in accuracy, versus the 33% of 4+ to 5+.