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Yeah, the bigbomm is a major factor. It's optional but 0 points?! Honestly if it meant making it 10pts and making the kopta 69pts then I would be happy. Still weirdly cost but 30 free points is good for Orks. I run the philosophy that everything Orky (because I'm a fan of the rogue trader days) should be half the points of marines to gi e double the imposing force but also be half as good.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Rokkits are costed well for Tankbustaz, but no one else. Drop the cost of Rokkits to 8 and the twin to 16. Make Tankbustaz 9 points base.

The other bizzare thing is the Bigbomm is 0 points, which leads me to believe they built it into the cost of the Deffkopta, but didn't make it stock equipment. It's probably worth 10 points so remove that from the base cost. Drop bomm cost to 5.

Base cost is now 45. Two chaos bikers are 46. Deffkopta with rokkits is 61. With bomm is 66.

Tankbustas are not appropriately priced. Rokkitz are most assuredly not appropriately priced. A Rokkit should be 6pts at most. Its half the range of a Missile Launcher, doesn't have a 2nd fire mode, does a Flat 3 dmg instead of D6, hits on a 5 while a Marine hits on a 3, and best of all, is on a 6+ save model. No Tankbustas are drastically over priced, and are currently only taken because they are just about the only anti-vehicle choice we have that doesn't involve getting into CC and hoping you can tie it up for a few rounds and kill it. Also, I don't think a 1 use only bomb that does a Mortal wound on a roll of 5+ on at most 5 models is worth 10pts, it averages 1.66 mortal wounds a game if you are lucky enough to even get to use it.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Rokkits are costed well for Tankbustaz, but no one else. Drop the cost of Rokkits to 8 and the twin to 16. Make Tankbustaz 9 points base.

The other bizzare thing is the Bigbomm is 0 points, which leads me to believe they built it into the cost of the Deffkopta, but didn't make it stock equipment. It's probably worth 10 points so remove that from the base cost. Drop bomm cost to 5.

Base cost is now 45. Two chaos bikers are 46. Deffkopta with rokkits is 61. With bomm is 66.

Tankbustas are not appropriately priced. Rokkitz are most assuredly not appropriately priced. A Rokkit should be 6pts at most. Its half the range of a Missile Launcher, doesn't have a 2nd fire mode, does a Flat 3 dmg instead of D6, hits on a 5 while a Marine hits on a 3, and best of all, is on a 6+ save model. No Tankbustas are drastically over priced, and are currently only taken because they are just about the only anti-vehicle choice we have that doesn't involve getting into CC and hoping you can tie it up for a few rounds and kill it. Also, I don't think a 1 use only bomb that does a Mortal wound on a roll of 5+ on at most 5 models is worth 10pts, it averages 1.66 mortal wounds a game if you are lucky enough to even get to use it.

1) If you think Tankbustaz, who are 1 point less than Boyz are properly costed on top of having reroll to hit vs vehicles you're nuts.
2) 6 points is absurd. Missile Launchers are not assault. They cost twice a rokkit and have way less stable damage. Flat 3 damage is about the best you can get for a common weapon in this game.

A boy with a rokkit @ 6 point rokkit - 0.037 ppw
A marine with ML - 0.027 ppw
A tankbusta @ 6 point rokkit - 0.067

3) Bigbomm is like firing a rokkit at MEQ 4.5 times or basically the whole game. Obviously it's worth less against GEQ, but that isn't really the point of it.


"But they're only a 6+ save!"

Yea, so what? You're getting better damage on a "weaker" platform. Dropping their points to make them "equally durable" will only make them broken.
As it stands at current points you get 10 shots for every dev squad with 4 missiles. That's 7.4 damage on a tank and 1.8 MEQ. Missiles get 4.1 on tanks and 1.9 with Frag on MEQ.

"Tweeentyyy four iiincheees!"

Yep, and you don't always have to Da Jump boyz. And the Trukk isn't always going to be 81 points.

5 Tankbustaz in a Trukk is a 36" weapon without penalty and would hit most anything you wanted to. For the cost it would 5 instead of 10 against the dev squad. So (at current points) you get 3.7 vs 4.1, oh no ! And you also have 10 T6 wounds between you and them as well as space for more. Yuck, T6 suuucks! Sure - against S7 weapons (S6, too, but those are not typically anti-tank).

To be honest I refuse to get Tank Bustas just because they're not plastic. Every resin model (apart from forge world beakies) I have ever owned has either snapped in some place or bent.

Only plastic model that ever brokemon me was my Morkanauts front belly kmb had his little hoop thing fall off when he fell over once (basically the smallest most unmissed part of the model so it was okay) and my deff koptas blades. The blads are super easy to repair though so that's lucky.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Rokkits are costed well for Tankbustaz, but no one else. Drop the cost of Rokkits to 8 and the twin to 16. Make Tankbustaz 9 points base.

The other bizzare thing is the Bigbomm is 0 points, which leads me to believe they built it into the cost of the Deffkopta, but didn't make it stock equipment. It's probably worth 10 points so remove that from the base cost. Drop bomm cost to 5.

Base cost is now 45. Two chaos bikers are 46. Deffkopta with rokkits is 61. With bomm is 66.

Tankbustas are not appropriately priced. Rokkitz are most assuredly not appropriately priced. A Rokkit should be 6pts at most. Its half the range of a Missile Launcher, doesn't have a 2nd fire mode, does a Flat 3 dmg instead of D6, hits on a 5 while a Marine hits on a 3, and best of all, is on a 6+ save model. No Tankbustas are drastically over priced, and are currently only taken because they are just about the only anti-vehicle choice we have that doesn't involve getting into CC and hoping you can tie it up for a few rounds and kill it. Also, I don't think a 1 use only bomb that does a Mortal wound on a roll of 5+ on at most 5 models is worth 10pts, it averages 1.66 mortal wounds a game if you are lucky enough to even get to use it.

1) If you think Tankbustaz, who are 1 point less than Boyz are properly costed on top of having reroll to hit vs vehicles you're nuts.
2) 6 points is absurd. Missile Launchers are not assault. They cost twice a rokkit and have way less stable damage. Flat 3 damage is about the best you can get for a common weapon in this game.

A boy with a rokkit @ 6 point rokkit - 0.037 ppw
A marine with ML - 0.027 ppw
A tankbusta @ 6 point rokkit - 0.067

3) Bigbomm is like firing a rokkit at MEQ 4.5 times or basically the whole game. Obviously it's worth less against GEQ, but that isn't really the point of it.


"But they're only a 6+ save!"

Yea, so what? You're getting better damage on a "weaker" platform. Dropping their points to make them "equally durable" will only make them broken.
As it stands at current points you get 10 shots for every dev squad with 4 missiles. That's 7.4 damage on a tank and 1.8 MEQ. Missiles get 4.1 on tanks and 1.9 with Frag on MEQ.

"Tweeentyyy four iiincheees!"

Yep, and you don't always have to Da Jump boyz. And the Trukk isn't always going to be 81 points.

5 Tankbustaz in a Trukk is a 36" weapon without penalty and would hit most anything you wanted to. For the cost it would 5 instead of 10 against the dev squad. So (at current points) you get 3.7 vs 4.1, oh no ! And you also have 10 T6 wounds between you and them as well as space for more. Yuck, T6 suuucks! Sure - against S7 weapons (S6, too, but those are not typically anti-tank).

Do you really want to get into numbers on that comparison?

Lets factor in a Tankbusta or a Boy armed with a rokkit is 3x less durable then a SM because 3+ vs 6+, now add in the range and the fact that this thing has to move in order to get in range and you HAVE to factor in the cost of the Trukk which is not 81, its 82 with a Big Shoota or 86 with its own rokkit, and how durable is that specific platform? T6, 10 wounds 4+ save...not exactly ground breaking durability. But lets factor in the trukk shall we? That is equivalent to HALF a Devastator squad, so 10 Tankbustas in a Trukk = 252pts For that you can get as mentioned 1 and 1/2 Squads of Devs, so lets just say 6 Missiles. Those Devs are now going to be hiding in cover the entire game because they have TWICE the range of a Tankbusta so they in effect have 2+ armor not 3+. So now its a competition between 6 Missiles and 10 Bustas, the Devs will get first shot for obvious reasons, 6 shots Vs T6 (trukk) = 5 hits (don't forget about that signum) 5 hits = about 3.33 wounds, vs that 6+ save (-2AP vs 4+ save) means 3 wounds go through x 3.5 (average dmg) = 10.5 or to put it another way, 1 dead trukk. When that trukk dies you then lose 1.66 Bustas. So now your Tankbustas are down to 8 models on average who are still out of range of their target. Assuming that Orkz got 1st turn and got as close as they could we will say the bustas get to shoot (doubtful) they let lose with 8 shots 2.66 hits, 2.333 wounds vs a 4+ save (2+ in cover -2AP) and 1.16 dead Devs. Next turn the 4-5 Devs let loose with 4-5 Frag missiles which will kill 4 more tankbustas who now have to take a morale check at -4 so they will basically be dead or useless after this turn.

So not only are they less survivable by a fair margin then devastators, but that lack of range basically forfeits them 1 turn of shooting against most intelligence foes. And if you are "Jumping" Tank bustas you are throwing them away because they die far to easily.

And finally, and probably most important to note when using a comparison between space marines and Orkz. Orkz DONT USE VEHICLES THIS EDITION. Why is that important? simple. Vehicles in an Ork list will be few and far between if used at all, this means that the enemies premier anti-armor weapons have golden opportunities to inflict damage on the enemy. The reason that Orkz are doing ok right now is because they run hordes of cheap throwaway infantry that completely go against the META of armor and elite primarchs/MC. When you start foot sloggin Elite infantry in a Horde list you are inviting the enemy to lay a smackdown on you. Let me know the next time you see someone marching Tankbustas or Meganobz up the board, and at the same time let me know when you see an ork list take a bunch of trukkz in 8th and do well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So when you bring that ALL in back to the point at hand of DeffKoptas, 6pts for a Rokkit, or 12 for a TL Rokkit would drastically help with the price of the model, but not nearly enough.

SemperMortis wrote:


Do you really want to get into numbers on that comparison?

Lets factor in a Tankbusta or a Boy armed with a rokkit is 3x less durable then a SM because 3+ vs 6+, now add in the range and the fact that this thing has to move in order to get in range and you HAVE to factor in the cost of the Trukk which is not 81, its 82 with a Big Shoota or 86 with its own rokkit, and how durable is that specific platform? T6, 10 wounds 4+ save...not exactly ground breaking durability. But lets factor in the trukk shall we? That is equivalent to HALF a Devastator squad, so 10 Tankbustas in a Trukk = 252pts For that you can get as mentioned 1 and 1/2 Squads of Devs, so lets just say 6 Missiles.

Invalid comparison. Devs do not come in that configuration. You can just as easily do 4 devs and 5 tankbustaz as I mentioned above.

Those Devs are now going to be hiding in cover the entire game because they have TWICE the range of a Tankbusta

36" while in a Trukk.

so they in effect have 2+ armor not 3+. So now its a competition between 6 Missiles and 10 Bustas, the Devs will get first shot for obvious reasons

Obvious reasons? You don't think a Trukk deployed on the line would be unable to reach just about anything they wanted?

6 shots Vs T6 (trukk) = 5 hits (don't forget about that signum) 5 hits = about 3.33 wounds, vs that 6+ save (-2AP vs 4+ save) means 3 wounds go through x 3.5 (average dmg) = 10.5 or to put it another way, 1 dead trukk.

Except back in reality --

1 * .833 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 1.6
3 * .666 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 3.9

So, a half dead trukk - ramshackle not considered.

Still in reality i'm not going to go shoot Devs in cover with Tankbustaz. That's stupid. I'm going to go shoot a vehicle, because that's what they're good at.

And finally, and probably most important to note when using a comparison between space marines and Orkz. Orkz DONT USE VEHICLES THIS EDITION. Why is that important? simple. Vehicles in an Ork list will be few and far between if used at all, this means that the enemies premier anti-armor weapons have golden opportunities to inflict damage on the enemy. The reason that Orkz are doing ok right now is because they run hordes of cheap throwaway infantry that completely go against the META of armor and elite primarchs/MC. When you start foot sloggin Elite infantry in a Horde list you are inviting the enemy to lay a smackdown on you. Let me know the next time you see someone marching Tankbustas or Meganobz up the board, and at the same time let me know when you see an ork list take a bunch of trukkz in 8th and do well.

I'm not saying putting stuff in Trukks is going to win you games right now. I'm telling you in the context of the tools available there are certain rational assumptions one can make about what the points for Orks will be in the future. Trying to adjust points without that in mind will quickly land you into broken units.

And the end result of that is you'll be disappointed with the book when it comes out.

I wouldn't go under 10 pts for rokkit launchas. Marines/eldar pay 25 for a missile launcher at bs3+, ours are half as effective at bs5+ so that puts it at 12.5. Working from that:

We lose 24" of range, but we do gain the ability to move and even to advance. I feel we lose here, but not by much.

We gain a steady 3 dmg, this is huge. It might cost us 0.5 dmg on average when shooting an abstracted mathhammer target with an infinite wound pool, but in practice we gain the ability to reliably one-shot terminators, bikers and wraithguard stuff. No rolling ones for damage and wasting a shot for us when blasting terminators. We can even be sure to two-shot stuff like viper jetbikes or war walkers if we connect. I can not overstate how awesome this is, I'd trade all my Dd6 weapons for this in an instant (regardless of army).

We lose a firing mode. No versatility for us. Whether or not anyone ever uses this mode will not be discussed here.


I see a minor loss (range), a large win (damage) and a medium loss (versatility, I'm being generous with "medium" imo). Based on this I'd be tempted to leave them at 12, and I certainly don't see why they'd need to drop below 10. I'm as desperate for some buffs to the army as anyone else here, but I think this might be one of the few "ok" costs*.


* stuff like hit modifiers interacting with bs5+ requires a separate solution imo

This is just going to turn into another maths thread like every Ork thread...

 lolman1c wrote:
This is just going to turn into another maths thread like every Ork thread...

Yea, I made my point. I won't jump in further.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
We gain a steady 3 dmg, this is huge. It might cost us 0.5 dmg on average when shooting an abstracted mathhammer target with an infinite wound pool, but in practice we gain the ability to reliably one-shot terminators, bikers and wraithguard stuff. No rolling ones for damage and wasting a shot for us when blasting terminators. We can even be sure to two-shot stuff like viper jetbikes or war walkers if we connect. I can not overstate how awesome this is, I'd trade all my Dd6 weapons for this in an instant (regardless of army).

This is a small factor, but it's worth mentioning that the flat 3 damage isn't an advantage when it comes to Tankbusts specifically (IMO). Vehicles usually have more than three wounds. Shooting Tankbustas at monsters or really tough infantry that might have three wounds is usually a waste of time, as Tankbustas don't get their re-roll to hit.

When the codex comes out they might make rokkits worth taking on units other than Tankbustas, in which case the flat 3 damage would probably be an advantage.

The Irony is that the Elder think they are correct but normally they themselves are wrong. The true answer is: WHY ARE YOU DOING MATHS YOU HERETIC GUARDS MAN!? GET BACK OUT THERE AND DIE FOR THE EMPEROR!

Would be nice to see the bomb as a priced option and the base unit cheaper as a result, have used them a few times, dropped a total of one bomb

 lolman1c wrote:
To be honest I refuse to get Tank Bustas just because they're not plastic. Every resin model (apart from forge world beakies) I have ever owned has either snapped in some place or bent.

Tankbustas are orks with a rokkit launcha. You don't need the official models to field tankbustas without proxying.

Again, let me know when you see foot sloggin Tankbustas in top tier lists, or let me know when you see Trukk mounted Tank Bustas in top tier lists. At the moment they aren't there and for a obvious reason. They are better then most of the trash units we have, but that doesn't make them a good unit.

Are the marines comparing rokkits to missile launchers again?

Missiles are our lascannons, not our missile launchers ya stupid gits. Do the math again based on that.

SemperMortis wrote:
Again, let me know when you see foot sloggin Tankbustas in top tier lists, or let me know when you see Trukk mounted Tank Bustas in top tier lists. At the moment they aren't there and for a obvious reason. They are better then most of the trash units we have, but that doesn't make them a good unit.

I feel like you're not reading the entirety of my posts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
Are the marines comparing rokkits to missile launchers again?

Missiles are our lascannons, not our missile launchers ya stupid gits. Do the math again based on that.

Math is roughly the same. Lascannon will shave an extra pip off the save and against the most common T7 the wound roll is the same.

 Jidmah wrote:
Missiles are our lascannons, not our missile launchers ya stupid gits.

Bit tangential, but I feel like that's a big problem with Orks. Everything is considered in terms of "X is our Y, therefore the cost of X should be some factor of Y." It's the lazy designer logic that leads to all the Ork weapons being overpriced.

For example, "Big shootas are our heavy bolters." Fair play, they're superficially similar weapons... but this erases significant differences - e.g. BS 5+, Assault, AP 0 vs BS 3/4+, Heavy, AP -1 - which are easy to dismiss but mean the weapons in play are used differently and to greatly different effect. Instead, the designers just seem to go "Well at BS 3+ the HB is 10 points, at BS 4+ it's 8 points, so at BS 5+ let's make it 6 points," and everyone nods along because that sounds like a nice, simple pattern. It's only once people start using big shootas in actual games that they realise they're terrible at that price.

I get it, people love making comparisons between units and mathing it all out - I'm as prone to it as anyone. But making comparisons between weapons that exist in entirely separate armies with vastly different playstyles (like Orks and Space Marines), or even just making the assumption that a weapon has intrinsic value independent of the context of the unit on which it's mounted and the army supporting it, will pretty much always lead to Ork weapons (and units!) being overpriced for what they actually achieve on the table. We get our current situation - a swathe of glass cannons with no actual punch.

TL;DR: Rokkits aren't "our missile launchers" or "our lascannons". They're our rokkits. To price them properly, look at what they can actually do, not how their stats compare.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Math is roughly the same. Lascannon will shave an extra pip off the save and against the most common T7 the wound roll is the same.

Also, more slightly more damage when shooting multiples. Which you will probably do when you try to kill a vehicle.

BS 3+ lascannon will do 1.296 damage to a T7/3+ vehicle
BS 5+ rokkit launcha will do 0.444

Therefore a rokkit should cost 8-9 points if its range were increased to 48". Less if the range stays the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kadeton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Missiles are our lascannons, not our missile launchers ya stupid gits.

Bit tangential, but I feel like that's a big problem with Orks. Everything is considered in terms of "X is our Y, therefore the cost of X should be some factor of Y." It's the lazy designer logic that leads to all the Ork weapons being overpriced.

For example, "Big shootas are our heavy bolters." Fair play, they're superficially similar weapons... but this erases significant differences - e.g. BS 5+, Assault, AP 0 vs BS 3/4+, Heavy, AP -1 - which are easy to dismiss but mean the weapons in play are used differently and to greatly different effect. Instead, the designers just seem to go "Well at BS 3+ the HB is 10 points, at BS 4+ it's 8 points, so at BS 5+ let's make it 6 points," and everyone nods along because that sounds like a nice, simple pattern. It's only once people start using big shootas in actual games that they realise they're terrible at that price.

I get it, people love making comparisons between units and mathing it all out - I'm as prone to it as anyone. But making comparisons between weapons that exist in entirely separate armies with vastly different playstyles (like Orks and Space Marines), or even just making the assumption that a weapon has intrinsic value independent of the context of the unit on which it's mounted and the army supporting it, will pretty much always lead to Ork weapons (and units!) being overpriced for what they actually achieve on the table. We get our current situation - a swathe of glass cannons with no actual punch.

TL;DR: Rokkits aren't "our missile launchers" or "our lascannons". They're our rokkits. To price them properly, look at what they can actually do, not how their stats compare.

Heh, I agree 100%. It's just that all those marine players keep pulling out missile launchers to tell us rokkits are fine while no one uses missile launchers unless they are forced to at gunpoint. Missile launchers pay a huge and unnecessary tax for having two profiles which are good against two different kind of units. Their "use this to shoot tanks"-guns are lascannons.

You can basically discount any argument comparing missiles to rokkits without even reading the numbers.

If you really want to find ork's "missile launcher"... it's called "kannon".

he has a point

Missile launchers are sometimes used for an anti-air strategem. So, you can expect to see 1-2 missile launchers in an army. They're not THAT much worse than lazcannons but the ability to deal d3 mortal wounds to a plane can be handy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, i can't vote on the chart cause there's no 40-50 pt range for some reason. I'd vote for 45-50. I think that a rokkit kopta should cost around 47 pts for it to start appearing on the table. Personally, i'd still forego koptas in my lists because they're not worth 47 pts for a horde but it's a decent price for someone running mech to start using them alongside trukks (that should also be cheaper).

 kadeton wrote:

Bit tangential, but I feel like that's a big problem with Orks. Everything is considered in terms of "X is our Y, therefore the cost of X should be some factor of Y." It's the lazy designer logic that leads to all the Ork weapons being overpriced.

For example, "Big shootas are our heavy bolters." Fair play, they're superficially similar weapons... but this erases significant differences - e.g. BS 5+, Assault, AP 0 vs BS 3/4+, Heavy, AP -1 - which are easy to dismiss but mean the weapons in play are used differently and to greatly different effect. Instead, the designers just seem to go "Well at BS 3+ the HB is 10 points, at BS 4+ it's 8 points, so at BS 5+ let's make it 6 points," and everyone nods along because that sounds like a nice, simple pattern. It's only once people start using big shootas in actual games that they realise they're terrible at that price.

I get it, people love making comparisons between units and mathing it all out - I'm as prone to it as anyone. But making comparisons between weapons that exist in entirely separate armies with vastly different playstyles (like Orks and Space Marines), or even just making the assumption that a weapon has intrinsic value independent of the context of the unit on which it's mounted and the army supporting it, will pretty much always lead to Ork weapons (and units!) being overpriced for what they actually achieve on the table. We get our current situation - a swathe of glass cannons with no actual punch.

TL;DR: Rokkits aren't "our missile launchers" or "our lascannons". They're our rokkits. To price them properly, look at what they can actually do, not how their stats compare.

^^^^This. All day this. Truth right here. Excellent post.

Can I get an option for 33pts? you wouldn't expect elder to pay over 100pts for 3 poorly aiming jetbikes.... I'm thinking a unit of 3 should weigh in at about 99pts....

 GamerGuy wrote:
Can I get an option for 33pts? you wouldn't expect elder to pay over 100pts for 3 poorly aiming jetbikes.... I'm thinking a unit of 3 should weigh in at about 99pts....

But kopptas can DS turn 1 to tie up motors and stu- oh wait.

Crazy suggestion here.... but what if we SIGNIFICANTLY dropped the cost of deffkoptas? they don't have models outside of 2nd ed or rare black reach finds.... and if they made them their own kit lets face it they'd be awesome.

I'm brainpooling about the 20pts mark. 3 would cost you 60pts, eg slightly more than a guard infantry squad... +5pts per model that takes a bomb?

it'd give orks a distinct speed and resilience, and maybe some less laughable anti-tank?

I say this as an Ultramarines player that grew up facing my brother's orks, my mates orks and my cousins orks... (and my other mate's blood angels) -that was our whole frequent meta as kids playing in the basement... (occasional trips to town would see newb guard lists or more marines)... and orks have never had enough anti-tank, have always died far too fast, and are hugely over costed. I'd like to see a return to rogue trader mentality of "twice as big; half as efficient" at 120pts who here would risk investing in 6 koptas?

just my thoughts, feel free to try and yell me down...
GamerGuy

Yeah I think basic koptas with big shootas should be 30ish points and rokkit ones around 40. But I probably wouldn't bring them anyway unless they get some nice combo with faction bonuses or stratagems.

 Blackie wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
To be honest I refuse to get Tank Bustas just because they're not plastic. Every resin model (apart from forge world beakies) I have ever owned has either snapped in some place or bent.

Tankbustas are orks with a rokkit launcha. You don't need the official models to field tankbustas without proxying.

Yes but those 3rd edition metal tankbustas models are legit!

 Jidmah wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Math is roughly the same. Lascannon will shave an extra pip off the save and against the most common T7 the wound roll is the same.

Also, more slightly more damage when shooting multiples. Which you will probably do when you try to kill a vehicle.

BS 3+ lascannon will do 1.296 damage to a T7/3+ vehicle
BS 5+ rokkit launcha will do 0.444

Therefore a rokkit should cost 8-9 points if its range were increased to 48". Less if the range stays the same.

Right, which is why if you see my earlier post I put Rokkits at 8 points. You could maybe get away with 7 regardless of range.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Rokkits are costed well for Tankbustaz, but no one else. Drop the cost of Rokkits to 8 and the twin to 16. Make Tankbustaz 9 points base.

Heh, I agree 100%. It's just that all those marine players keep pulling out missile launchers to tell us rokkits are fine while no one uses missile launchers unless they are forced to at gunpoint. Missile launchers pay a huge and unnecessary tax for having two profiles which are good against two different kind of units. Their "use this to shoot tanks"-guns are lascannons.

You can basically discount any argument comparing missiles to rokkits without even reading the numbers.

If you really want to find ork's "missile launcher"... it's called "kannon".

Missile Launchers get used quite often around here. There's a huge advantage to taking on vehicles almost as well as a LC and then being able to put 4D6 shots onto a squad of Orks. You're correct that they're not directly comparable, but if we wanted the most useful mathematical equivalent (points aside) that's the best choice. Rokkits get labeled as a LC, simply because it doesn't have that same utility as a ML. It is the premier ork-portable anti-tank weapon and so is the analogue of the lascannon.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Right, which is why if you see my earlier post I put Rokkits at 8 points. You could maybe get away with 7 regardless of range.

Why on earth would you pay the same points for a weapon on a model that needs to advance for THREE turns to reach a lascannon that can shoot you without moving starting turn 1? Don't you think 48" range is worth some points, considering it's higher than every single ork weapon except lootas, lobbas and the SAG?
For 48" rokkits I'd pay 8 points. Reminds me of the good old days when lootaz didn't suck and you could shut down half of a leaf blower turn 1 despite them hugging their board edge.

Missile Launchers get used quite often around here. There's a huge advantage to taking on vehicles almost as well as a LC and then being able to put 4D6 shots onto a squad of Orks. You're correct that they're not directly comparable, but if we wanted the most useful mathematical equivalent (points aside) that's the best choice. Rokkits get labeled as a LC, simply because it doesn't have that same utility as a ML. It is the premier ork-portable anti-tank weapon and so is the analogue of the lascannon.

Yet you still completely missed the point. No one wants the profile of the rokkit launcha to change, we need it to be costed well.
If you compare it to a weapon whose point cost cannot be quantified because it pays points for utility, what do you hope to prove? Every single number you have calculated in that comparison is useless.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Right, which is why if you see my earlier post I put Rokkits at 8 points. You could maybe get away with 7 regardless of range.

Why on earth would you pay the same points for a weapon on a model that needs to advance for THREE turns to reach a lascannon that can shoot you without moving starting turn 1? Don't you think 48" range is worth some points, considering it's higher than every single ork weapon except lootas, lobbas and the SAG?
For 48" rokkits I'd pay 8 points. Reminds me of the good old days when lootaz didn't suck and you could shut down half of a leaf blower turn 1 despite them hugging their board edge.

No you don't need to advance for three turns. I know it's a dirty word, but use Trukks. Or, use Da Jump on them.

Surely having no move penalty on a "heavy" weapon is also worth something?

Orks are not Space Marines. Don't go into it with the expectation that they'll ever operate the same way.

Yet you still completely missed the point. No one wants the profile of the rokkit launcha to change, we need it to be costed well.
If you compare it to a weapon whose point cost cannot be quantified because it pays points for utility, what do you hope to prove? Every single number you have calculated in that comparison is useless.

I'm not attempting to change the rokkit profile.

Earlier you said this:

BS 3+ lascannon will do 1.296 damage to a T7/3+ vehicle
BS 5+ rokkit launcha will do 0.444

This is an attempt to demonstrate how poor the rokkit is to an LC, but when you actually tie it to the cost of the body and weapon...

Tankbusta - 24 points for 1 damage
LC - 29.3 points for 1 damage
Missile Launcher - 36.9 points for 1 damage
Rokkit - 40 points for 1 damage (nowhere near the 3:1 deficit your numbers present)

The Tankbusta Rokkit is already 17% more efficient than a LC on the cheapest LC body. Now, comically, that is at current prices - 8 point rokkits with no change to tankbustaz...

Tankbusta - 17.6 points for 1 damage
Rokkit - 31.5 points for 1 damage

Closer, right? You get the effectiveness of an LC on a regular non-tankbusta boy. And if you keep the Tankbusta the same price as before it's still more efficient than the LC.

"But shorter range"

Right, so, most people aren't taking rokkits on boyz. They go on vehicles that move 12" or Tankbustaz in Trukks or Jumped. There's a really fine line between good and broken and you'll risk that with TBs.

Yes, you'll lose some efficiency by doing these things, but those support units also serve other purposes as other than to JUST get TBs where they need to be. It's not line they're in tons of danger when they're infantry hiding behind a building waiting for the tide to roll in.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

No you don't need to advance for three turns. I know it's a dirty word, but use Trukks. Or, use Da Jump on them.

If you jump Tankbustas they might do something turn 1 but then they are dead, T4 6+ armor means they die, it also means you aren't jumping a useful unit like Boyz into CC range where they can either draw fire or possibly assault and harass units. As for using a Trukk? It isn't a dirty word, its a ridiculous word. 80+pts for a transport thats only T6 and 4+ save. If you cram it with 10 Tankbustas it adds over 8pts to their cost and adds literally nothing except speed. Not even durability because at T6 4+ save it dies REALLY quick, and when it dies it kills 1/6th of its passengers.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Surely having no move penalty on a "heavy" weapon is also worth something?

Orks are not Space Marines. Don't go into it with the expectation that they'll ever operate the same way.

No, not really. Ork heavy moves it loses 1/2 of its shooting potential. A Space Marine moves with a heavy and it loses 1/4th of its shooting potential. Add to that the fact that Orkz are ALWAYS advancing trying to get into CC and/or range with our weapons and its actually basically the same, Assault loses 1 BS when advancing. Orkz are very much not space Marines, that is why our elite tank hunters, who in the fluff strap destroyed tanks to their hides to give them more armor, have 6+ saves.....And BS5+. They shouldn't operate the same way, but they should at least function. Right now tankbustas are only taken because they are just about the only answer we have to vehicles of any sort, beyond tying them up for several turns with boyz or whittling them down with those same boyz and their S4 attacks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
This is an attempt to demonstrate how poor the rokkit is to an LC, but when you actually tie it to the cost of the body and weapon...

Tankbusta - 24 points for 1 damage
LC - 29.3 points for 1 damage
Missile Launcher - 36.9 points for 1 damage
Rokkit - 40 points for 1 damage (nowhere near the 3:1 deficit your numbers present)

The Tankbusta Rokkit is already 17% more efficient than a LC on the cheapest LC body. Now, comically, that is at current prices - 8 point rokkits with no change to tankbustaz...

Tankbusta - 17.6 points for 1 damage
Rokkit - 31.5 points for 1 damage

Closer, right? You get the effectiveness of an LC on a regular non-tankbusta boy. And if you keep the Tankbusta the same price as before it's still more efficient than the LC.

"But shorter range"

Right, so, most people aren't taking rokkits on boyz. They go on vehicles that move 12" or Tankbustaz in Trukks or Jumped. There's a really fine line between good and broken and you'll risk that with TBs.

Yes, you'll lose some efficiency by doing these things, but those support units also serve other purposes as other than to JUST get TBs where they need to be. It's not line they're in tons of danger when they're infantry hiding behind a building waiting for the tide to roll in.

Actually, most people aren't taking rokkitz at all, they are drastically over priced and utterly useless except on Tankbustas. A couple of things are missing from your calculations. 1: They are in fact 1/2 the range of a Lascannon, you discount that by saying jump or use a trukk, but you leave out the cost of a trukk (83pts) or a weirdboy to jump them. So your LC's are sitting in cover shooting the entire game and my Rokkitz are either spending 2 turns advancing before they can shoot OR they are using a super expensive and useless trukk, or keeping my weirdboy from casting jump on a unit of boyz or casting smite...which is one of the only good things we have right now. And of course 2: While that LC unit is sitting in cover enjoying a 2+ save my Boyz are running around with a 6+ save, and they can't use cover because they are moving towards your guns trying to get into range.

So that SM with a Lascannon has a 1/6th chance to fail his armor save, my Boy and or Busta has a 1/6th chance to PASS his armor save, he is also in the open advancing towards you because unlike your lascannon he can't shoot from turn 1 because his range is 1/2 what yours is. So why should my Rokkitz be WAY MORE efficient at dmg then your Lascannon or missile launcher? Because of the inherent risk involved in using them. No armor, short range means I am going to lose a lot of them before they even get to return fire. Even if they were 8pts per rokkit they would be too expensive. At 5pts per rokkit last edition I still wasn't using them on regular boyz mobs because it wasn't worth wasting 15pts to me.