Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

It doesn't really matter, without warptime the Rhino moves 12", then the Berzerkers bail out 3", giving a 9" charge.

Similar to a drop-pod, except you lose 1-in-6 guys and you can get shot on turn 1.

9" charge is ok, a 1" charge is better (unless they have flamers and then you'll wish you didn't blow up your rhino).

Why a 9 inch charge means no flamer overwatch as your out of range run towards the flames lads they couldn't toast a marshmallow at this range.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
If you ever tried that crap against me I might beat you with a sock Dreadnought, but in a tournament...

Is that a euphemism?

It is called a 'Dreadsock'. You kids, sheesh.

I'm going with adding combi-meltas to myy chaos rhinos for now.
The idea is, that this forces my opponent to take them serious, even after they spilled their loads.
Otherwise, if ignored I can drive around and try to snipe characters and vehicles with those potentially devastating melta shots.

In the few games I tried rhino rush before, they did reasonably well bringing my berserkers and plasma-havocs to the frontline.
But then they just drove around, being rather useless and were usually the last thing alive on the table after a hard fought game.

Neat thread, I hadn't realized a unit that disembarked a destroyed transport could charge! I'm going to keep that in mind for my trukk boys.

HMint wrote:

But then they just drove around, being rather useless and were usually the last thing alive on the table after a hard fought game.

Didn't use them to assault stuff? I know I used chimera's quite a lot for that purpose. Tag stuff on combat forcing them to either fall back and not shoot/assault or hack at T7 3+ target. Without multiple fists etc not easy to clear

Late game, surviving Rhinos wreak havoc on many non-competitive lists. They'd probably do so to competitive lists, if you made it that far.

They don't kill anything, but they can survive many rounds of Assault against most non-CC and some CC units. They can foil charges or LOS, too. They can do mean things....

... When they don't lose their last 2 wounds to a single Shuriken Catapault on overwatch. I did that to someone once. I felt bad.

Rhino rush was fun and popular in 3rd edition.
Here you took two Rhinos one behind the other.
In turn 1, they move forward with max. speed with the Rhino in front launching smoke.
In turn 2, you leap frog the Rhinos so that the 2nd one is in front of the first moving again with max. speed toward the enemy.
Then you unload your freight to charge the enemy.

Not sure if this works in the same way in the new edition due to the cover rule for tanks.
Moreover, you dont want your Assault Marines to charge. They are too weak in cc when compared with cc specialists.

tneva82 wrote:

HMint wrote:

But then they just drove around, being rather useless and were usually the last thing alive on the table after a hard fought game.

Didn't use them to assault stuff? I know I used chimera's quite a lot for that purpose. Tag stuff on combat forcing them to either fall back and not shoot/assault or hack at T7 3+ target. Without multiple fists etc not easy to clear

If there was a chance, yes. But remember that my berserkers kind of sweeped the area, so easy to assault targets are sparse.
Rhinos can't enter certain terrain or buildings, so all those units posted in there are safe.
Lot's of units that I would have loved to harrass had fly (Tau almost everything that isn't a firewarrior for example), or did not care about falling back for some other reason.
In some games there was a cybot with fist, or phantomlord protecting certain areas, so I could not drive there, or else the rhino would die without even slowing those units down.

For all these situations, being a bit more of a threat with the melta could make them eat more firepower, or make a difference otherwise.

Funny question, If I have Trukk with only a few wounds left (1 or 2 for example. transporting a unit. If it attempts a charge and is destroyed by overwatch, can the unit transported, which was forced to disembark, then attempt a charge?

 warhead01 wrote:
Funny question, If I have Trukk with only a few wounds left (1 or 2 for example. transporting a unit. If it attempts a charge and is destroyed by overwatch, can the unit transported, which was forced to disembark, then attempt a charge?

I would say yes that they could declare a charge.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
Funny question, If I have Trukk with only a few wounds left (1 or 2 for example. transporting a unit. If it attempts a charge and is destroyed by overwatch, can the unit transported, which was forced to disembark, then attempt a charge?

I would say yes that they could declare a charge.

Neat!
It's never come up in the games I've played yet.
I think I will try to make it happen!

 Marmatag wrote:
Rhinos are only as good as what they transport.

If you put Berzerkers in them, they're valuable. I can't offhand think of anything else that would benefit from a Rhino.

Tzaangors. When Berzerkers dies like Cultist to Plasma guns, or Power Fist / Powe Axe attacks, Tzaangors just walk through those attacks with 5++. Yes chainswords (should the wielders survive) and boltguns kills A SINGLE Tzaangor twice as easy compare to a Berzerker, but the pts cost of Tzaangors are less than half compare to Berzerkers.

 Jaxler wrote:
Melta vets in a rhino is also a possibility, but still, space marines don’t have any units worth a 70 point tax to useable

Let's do a thought experiment.

This:


Versus this:


Which do you think would win? Which do you think would better survive losing the first turn?

Rhino rush is banking on opponent not being able to destroy them first turn... Tau and guard can do it easy then the units are foot slogging it - too risky IMO.

 Primark G wrote:
Rhino rush is banking on opponent not being able to destroy them first turn... Tau and guard can do it easy then the units are foot slogging it - too risky IMO.

There is a finite number of weapons in each category.

Firewarriors can either do 0.7 (cover)/1.3 wounds to a marine or 0.67 to a rhino. Marines in cover most certainly will not be on the line and cover will not be available to all of them. Additionally, there are enough weapons that ignore cover like SMS.

Rhinos do two things:
1) Force a choice between your tanks and the rhinos
2) Skew the targets your opponent can shoot towards those that need anti-tank to be hurt effectively

Return to the thought experiment. If I had a third unit of SG instead of two rhinos, what do you think would get shot then? Is losing half the points of a squad better or worse than losing the squad itself that would be foot slogging it anyway?

I'm actually kind of excited about how good this FAQ made Rhinos. I think the niche that Marines were "supposed" to fill is high-mobility shock firepower, concentrating all 2k points into one tiny area while armies like IG are spread across the board and take time to lumber their guns and whatnot into position.

This hasn't panned out in practice, but if we start seeing more Rhinos, it just might.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm actually kind of excited about how good this FAQ made Rhinos. I think the niche that Marines were "supposed" to fill is high-mobility shock firepower, concentrating all 2k points into one tiny area while armies like IG are spread across the board and take time to lumber their guns and whatnot into position.

This hasn't panned out in practice, but if we start seeing more Rhinos, it just might.

Im hoping we see a resurgence in Transports in general (and that maybe they get a discount come Chapter Approved as well) I think having lots of Chimeras, Rhinos, Tauroxes, Trukks, etc should be a great tactic to get your opponent to choose between hitting your artillery/ranged forces, your objective takers, and your assault squads. Really if this is the long term plan for GW I love it because now we are actually going to have to consider "Tactics" i.e. movement, durability, firepower, and objectives, when we list build instead of trying to cram in the most efficient units. Transports are a way to get troops across the field and should not be something thats "heavily armed" and I think people are assuming their transports should also be tanks and do massive amounts of damage (they shouldn't). There are outliers of course, Repulsors and Wave Serpents are nasty dakka boxes but they have their own limitations (and at least one should be a few more points). My only problem with them currently is they seem to run a bit high on points, especially for Guard because most of the time the Chimera costs more than the squad thats inside of it! Then again, we should also be a bit more creative with how we use them. A rhino is good for taking objectives and in a pinch you can use it to soak up overwatch with a charge or even bogging down units and disrupting how they shoot or force them to reposition somewhere you can take advantage of, also its mobile LOS cover!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
Melta vets in a rhino is also a possibility, but still, space marines don’t have any units worth a 70 point tax to useable

Let's do a thought experiment.

This:

Spoiler:

5 Intercessors
5 Intercessors
5 Intercessors

5 SG, 2x Plasma, 2x CombiPlas
5 SG, 2x Plasma, 2x CombiPlas
5 SG, 2x Plasma, 2x CombiPlas


Predator, Quad Las
Predator, Quad Las

Versus this:

Spoiler:

5 Intercessors
5 Intercessors
5 Intercessors

5 SG, 2x Plasma, 2x CombiPlas
5 SG, 2x Plasma, 2x CombiPlas

Rhino, 2x SB
Rhino, 2x SB

Predator, Quad Las
Predator, Quad Las

Which do you think would win? Which do you think would better survive losing the first turn?

A list that doesn’t run units that need a rhino. My scions and russes laugh at your rhinos. Sternguard are crap because they need rhinos, and cost too much base already. The sternguard with the rhinos are better, but the list is still crap and I’d mulch it with my guard.

Blood angels and Ministorum can both do Rhino rush fairly well I think.

Consider this list:

 Jaxler wrote:


A list that doesn’t run units that need a rhino. My scions and russes laugh at your rhinos. Sternguard are crap because they need rhinos, and cost too much base already. The sternguard with the rhinos are better, but the list is still crap and I’d mulch it with my guard.

It's sort of besides the point on what you think of Sternguard.

Your scions can't deepstrike turn 1, so that's out. Your LRBTs need to shoot rhinos or shoot predators. They're not doing both. And since you have scions and LRBTs you likely don't have a ton of manticores/basilisks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:


A list that doesn’t run units that need a rhino. My scions and russes laugh at your rhinos. Sternguard are crap because they need rhinos, and cost too much base already. The sternguard with the rhinos are better, but the list is still crap and I’d mulch it with my guard.

It's sort of besides the point on what you think of Sternguard.

Your scions can't deepstrike turn 1, so that's out. Your LRBTs need to shoot rhinos or shoot predators. They're not doing both. And since you have scions and LRBTs you likely don't have a ton of manticores/basilisks.

Quite so. My superheavy tanks will shoot the Predators first turn, for obvious reasons, but that would allow the Rhino to get up to 18" closer and blow smoke (and if they went first and not second, the Rhino-mounted squads will have travelled 22-27 inches while my superheavy tanks were firing at the predators). If there were no rhinos for said squads, then my superheavy tanks could use their heavy bolters to evaporate said squads (18-30 shots per tank, depending), without meaningfully impacting their firepower against the Predators. But in Rhinos? My heavy bolters aren't going to stop them.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:


A list that doesn’t run units that need a rhino. My scions and russes laugh at your rhinos. Sternguard are crap because they need rhinos, and cost too much base already. The sternguard with the rhinos are better, but the list is still crap and I’d mulch it with my guard.

It's sort of besides the point on what you think of Sternguard.

Your scions can't deepstrike turn 1, so that's out. Your LRBTs need to shoot rhinos or shoot predators. They're not doing both. And since you have scions and LRBTs you likely don't have a ton of manticores/basilisks.

Quite so. My superheavy tanks will shoot the Predators first turn, for obvious reasons, but that would allow the Rhino to get up to 18" closer and blow smoke (and if they went first and not second, the Rhino-mounted squads will have travelled 22-27 inches while my superheavy tanks were firing at the predators). If there were no rhinos for said squads, then my superheavy tanks could use their heavy bolters to evaporate said squads (18-30 shots per tank, depending), without meaningfully impacting their firepower against the Predators. But in Rhinos? My heavy bolters aren't going to stop them.

At 1000 points? Multiple superheavy tanks?

Spoletta wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:


A list that doesn’t run units that need a rhino. My scions and russes laugh at your rhinos. Sternguard are crap because they need rhinos, and cost too much base already. The sternguard with the rhinos are better, but the list is still crap and I’d mulch it with my guard.

It's sort of besides the point on what you think of Sternguard.

Your scions can't deepstrike turn 1, so that's out. Your LRBTs need to shoot rhinos or shoot predators. They're not doing both. And since you have scions and LRBTs you likely don't have a ton of manticores/basilisks.

Quite so. My superheavy tanks will shoot the Predators first turn, for obvious reasons, but that would allow the Rhino to get up to 18" closer and blow smoke (and if they went first and not second, the Rhino-mounted squads will have travelled 22-27 inches while my superheavy tanks were firing at the predators). If there were no rhinos for said squads, then my superheavy tanks could use their heavy bolters to evaporate said squads (18-30 shots per tank, depending), without meaningfully impacting their firepower against the Predators. But in Rhinos? My heavy bolters aren't going to stop them.

At 1000 points? Multiple superheavy tanks?

Yes?

A Stormsword, Shadowsword, or Banehammer with one set of sponsons is only 472. A Stormhammer is 468, IIRC. You end up with roughly 1 guard squad and 1 HQ in a patrol detachment, and two superheavy tanks at 1k.

EDIT:
Heck, leave the sponsons off and you can get two Banehammers to carry an entire battalion of guard with a couple sprinkled upgrades. Or two Shadowswords/Stormswords and a battalion, though the battalion will have to walk. Perhaps one Shadowsword and one Banehammer, and then stuff everything but one Guard Squad in the Banehammer.

The baneblade base chassis is indeed a bit too cheap. 550 is a better starting spot i think. Baneblades should be the most expensive LoW atm, not the cheapest.

Martel732 wrote:
The baneblade base chassis is indeed a bit too cheap. 550 is a better starting spot i think. Baneblades should be the most expensive LoW atm, not the cheapest.

You can tell because of how they're sweeping tournaments.

/sarcasm

The Baneblades, particularly the Shadowsword, is crazy good.

I say this as someone who uses and owns one.

The chassis mounts 4 lascannons and 5 twin heavy bolters, which can fire in close quarters, and on the move at full ballistic skill. That alone can generally cripple a vehicle and outright demolish a large infantry squad in a round. Then, to top it off, you get a Volcano Cannon, which will generally completely take out a tank a turn.

Notably, while most models take about 4 times their cost to remove instantaneously, a Shadowsword can, in a round, cripple or destroy 2 vehicles and a large squad of infantry [or two small squads], and there's no way to shut it off short of outright blowing it up, which isn't easy. It's capable of recurring it's cost in a single round of shooting, and if it's in melee it can pop Crush Them to make 9 very powerful melee attacks hitting on 2's.

It suffers from the weakness of being a large single target, and being able to bring either 1 or 3. If you bring 3, you're shorted on Command Points and on screening infantry, and you lack good board presence because your army is 3 big tanks and things to buff them. If you bring 1, it's one big target that can and will take every gun the enemy has on the first turn, so if you were relying on it without redundancy you're going to be left in a hole with no way to climb out.


The Shadowsword is far an above the optimal variant. The Baneblade and Hellhammer pay 40 points for a Demolisher cannon and a few more for an autocannon, which doesn't add meaningfully to their ability for their cost. They add overkill onto overkill for conventional targets, and don't enable it to tackle enemy superheavies. The Shadowsword is the same cost as the Banesword and Stormsword for strictly superior performance, and cheaper than the inferior Doomhammer.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Rhino rush is banking on opponent not being able to destroy them first turn... Tau and guard can do it easy then the units are foot slogging it - too risky IMO.

There is a finite number of weapons in each category.

Firewarriors can either do 0.7 (cover)/1.3 wounds to a marine or 0.67 to a rhino. Marines in cover most certainly will not be on the line and cover will not be available to all of them. Additionally, there are enough weapons that ignore cover like SMS.

Rhinos do two things:
1) Force a choice between your tanks and the rhinos
2) Skew the targets your opponent can shoot towards those that need anti-tank to be hurt effectively

Return to the thought experiment. If I had a third unit of SG instead of two rhinos, what do you think would get shot then? Is losing half the points of a squad better or worse than losing the squad itself that would be foot slogging it anyway?

Too many people forget transports solve the alpha strike issue. I've watched opponents either A. Dump an insane amount of firepower to crack a single transport. or B. Completely ignore the transport. They work wonders, they allow you deploy faster, they are tough, they reduce deployment #'s of units for getting the +1 to go first.... I cannot fathom why some players view them as worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The baneblade base chassis is indeed a bit too cheap. 550 is a better starting spot i think. Baneblades should be the most expensive LoW atm, not the cheapest.

You can tell because of how they're sweeping tournaments.

/sarcasm

With the deepstrike turn 1 nerf you may soon see them. The shadow sword is disgusting to face.