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The 6 isn't gone. But the 1 to instead of is.

Which is the point I gave been trying to make.

There are 2 parts: an unmodified 6 to hit. And 2 hits instead of 1.

As I said last night; additional hit on an unmodified 6 would definitely cause 3 hits from strat and gun. But as worded with both being instead of a specific result you can only recieve the benefit once.

Think of it another way: if you had 2 abilities that were "instead of moving" would you be arguing that you gain the benefits of both because you didn't move?

IMO, the end result is 2 hits.

If you roll a 6, replace 1 hit with 2.

you now have 2 hits.

If you roll a 6, replace 1 hit with 2.

You do not have one hit. You have 2. Rule does not apply.

If it was written in a different way, such as "if you roll a 6, add one hit." then it would clearly stack.

However, it seems like a perfect job for an FAQ. Until then, be prepared to start fights if you try to claim stacking for the traits in a game. So far, GW has FAQ'd most stacking out of the game.

I look at it like this: I roll 4d6 and only one die comes up a natural 6. First rule kicks in and I now have 2 dice that count as a natural d6 that hit. Second rule kicks in, and each of those single die now become 2 hits as well. There are many rules in the game that I disagree with and many FAQ as well. But the rules are written they way that they are and it is what it is.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I look at it like this: I roll 4d6 and only one die comes up a natural 6. First rule kicks in and I now have 2 dice that count as a natural d6 that hit. Second rule kicks in, and each of those single die now become 2 hits as well. There are many rules in the game that I disagree with and many FAQ as well. But the rules are written they way that they are and it is what it is.

But the free hit doesn't become a "natural roll of a 6", it is just a "hit".

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The 6 isn't gone. But the 1 to instead of is.

Which is the point I gave been trying to make.

There are 2 parts: an unmodified 6 to hit. And 2 hits instead of 1.

As I said last night; additional hit on an unmodified 6 would definitely cause 3 hits from strat and gun. But as worded with both being instead of a specific result you can only recieve the benefit once.

Think of it another way: if you had 2 abilities that were "instead of moving" would you be arguing that you gain the benefits of both because you didn't move?

While I still see how a player could argue they stack based on the literal wording of the rule as it's written, your example regarding movement convinced me that the correct way to handle it is that they don't. Thanks for sticking to it.

Here’s the best way to maximize the avenger Gatling: don’t take endless fury leave it as the normal AGC

First use the warlord trait
Blessed by the Sacristans
Chose one weapon (not an Heirloom of the Noble Houses) that your Warlord is equipped with. Each time you make an unmodified wound roll of 6 for that weapon, the target suffers a mortal wound in addition to the normal damage.

Then use the stratagem
Saturation Bombardment Strat for House Vulker reads "Each unmodified hit roll of 6 for that model's shooting attacks scores 2 hits instead of one.

This should produce a mortal wound and an extra attack for each nat 6. Plus it’s a mortal wound instead of an extra hit. I think this combo is better then endless furry. And it allows you to take endless fury on another model

 Neroku wrote:
Here’s the best way to maximize the avenger Gatling: don’t take endless fury leave it as the normal AGC

First use the warlord trait
Blessed by the Sacristans
Chose one weapon (not an Heirloom of the Noble Houses) that your Warlord is equipped with. Each time you make an unmodified wound roll of 6 for that weapon, the target suffers a mortal wound in addition to the normal damage.

Then use the stratagem
Saturation Bombardment Strat for House Vulker reads "Each unmodified hit roll of 6 for that model's shooting attacks scores 2 hits instead of one.

This should produce a mortal wound and an extra attack for each nat 6. Plus it’s a mortal wound instead of an extra hit. I think this combo is better then endless furry. And it allows you to take endless fury on another model

So you could have still taken Endless Fury on the first Knight, and just run this set up on a second Knight.

SJ

imagine you roll a dice and you get a 6. the weapon rule gives you an additional dice (because 1+1=2); then the stratagem applies, giving you ANOTHER extra dice. voila you get 3 hits.

so you have the 6 and the 2 other hits.

the 6 counts for both rules, not exclusively for one.


the red space section is the 6:


now the red sections are the extra hits generated:


since im not a native speaker i dont know the english phrases for these set theory specifics, but i hope you get my point.

_ness: Once again, if the rolled 6 generated extra or additional hits on at least 1 of the rules; then your diagram would be correct. But both rules replace the single hit normally gained with 2 hits instead; which is an action you can only perform 1 time.

I still don't see any rule that says a roll is only one time use.

 p5freak wrote:
I still don't see any rule that says a roll is only one time use.

Can you explain how you replace the 1 hit twice?

As I see it, once you have applied one rule, the die has been modified (albeit not numerically), so the second has no unmodified die to effect.

Screaming out for an FAQ, though.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I still don't see any rule that says a roll is only one time use.

Can you explain how you replace the 1 hit twice?

Both rules happen at the same time. Sequencing comes into play, you resolve one rule after the other, but they still happen simultaneously.

Even happening simultaneously(which is not what the sequencing rules do anyways); gaining 2 hits instead of 1 satisfies both rules simultaneously; netting 2 hits imstead of 1(or 3 or 4).

Same goes for resolving them in sequence(which the rules say to do): resolve the first one and you have 2 hits instead of 1, go on to resolve the second and you lack the 1 hit to "instead of" as you have 2 hits.

Sequencing tells us that if two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. It doesnt say one rule has to happen first, and the other rule(s) happen after that. They are still happening at the same time. And you dont spend CP on a strategem and get nothing from it. Thats not what happens.

If it says it turns one hit into two hits, then with sequencing when the second one is applied, the rule could be read that it turns one of the two hits you have at that time into two hits, giving you 3 hits. It does not say that you turn each hit into two hits, so you do not get to turn 2 hits into 4 hits. Kommissar Kel's reading of turning 1 hit into 2 hits meaning you only get to turn the 1 hit into two hits is another way it could be read. Since there's multiple ways it can validly be interpreted, talk it over with your opponent beforehand. Write GW if you want to get them to include this in a FAQ.

Pfreak: sequencing rules mid-game allow the player whose turn it is to determine the order in which you resolve simultaneous rules. Meaning that one of the simultaneous rules is completely resolved before the next even starts to be resolved.

You are seriously reaching here; and you are still wrong. Sequencing absolutely effects the game based on which rules resolve first and was specifically written into the game with that in mind.

Doctortom: if it were worded that way, then yes. But, again, both rules have the "2 hits instead of 1" verbiage. Not 2 hits instead of one of them; 2 hits instead of the 1 generated by the unmodified to-hit roll of 6. By the same rights; a Kight Warden with endless fury which has 1-6 wounds remaining firing at an enemy that is under the effects of 2 separate -1 to-hit abilities or special rules would not receive any hits on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit(it has 0 hits for the instead of 1) you cannot apply the 2 hits instead of 1 if you do not have the simple 1 hit at the time of Resolution.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Pfreak: sequencing rules mid-game allow the player whose turn it is to determine the order in which you resolve simultaneous rules. Meaning that one of the simultaneous rules is completely resolved before the next even starts to be resolved.

Citation please where it says one rule happens first and the other some time after that.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Sequencing absolutely effects the game based on which rules resolve first and was specifically written into the game with that in mind.

That is pure speculation on your side. Unless you are part of the GW rules team, which i doubt.

 p5freak wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Pfreak: sequencing rules mid-game allow the player whose turn it is to determine the order in which you resolve simultaneous rules. Meaning that one of the simultaneous rules is completely resolved before the next even starts to be resolved.

Citation please where it says one rule happens first and the other some time after that.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Sequencing absolutely effects the game based on which rules resolve first and was specifically written into the game with that in mind.

That is pure speculation on your side. Unless you are part of the GW rules team, which i doubt.

Sequencing, Battle Primer core rules sidebar: While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally "at the start of the Movement Phase" or "before the battle begins". When this happens during the game the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what oder the rules are resolved.

A roll-off for outside of a players turn, or the player whose turn it is determines the order in with simultaneous rules are Resolved.

Do you know what the word resolved means?

If you resolve a rule that destroys a unit before resolving a rule that gives it defensive buffs does that not effect the game?

One of the parts of sequencing mentions the specific example of at the end of the movement phase; If I have 2 terminator squads set up in the teleportarium chamber, I then decide at the end of my second turn to use Teleport strike bringing them in from reserve(this is simultaneous at the end of movement phase); i choose to resole terminator squad A before B. I resolve their set-up and move on to squad B: can I place Squad B in the exact same location as Squad A? Or did the order I resolved the simultaneous rules effect the game?

You are flat-out wrong in everything you are saying(other than I am not part of the development team, that is true), and you seem to be arguing about a rule you are not reading(sequencing) because had you read it you would see you are wrong.

It's either 2 or 3.

First rule changes a 6 into two hits.

If one of those hits is still a "6" and not a valueless "hit", that one generates two hits. So one of the two becomes two again, making three.

If both hits are valueless, the second rule no longer applies. Even with (ESPECIALLY with) sequencing determining that an order of operations be followed. Even if that order is arbitrarily chosen.