Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 chimeara wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Love how Imperials get Daemon Prince level power with more survivability. Even at my FLGS, lately all I see are Slamguinius Captains and Jetbike Shield captains, backed by Knights.

In the meantime, I've been playing Killteam, or 1500 pt games instead. Never thought I'd want to play smaller games of 40k.

Yeah never understood that, whats the point of playing 40k if you have like 10 models on the table. I like to fight with and against armies.

I've had a knight player tell me he only brought knights because he wanted to field as little as possible......that doesn't seem fun.

Well knights are now an army, so I no longer think a knight army is spam, if people want to play knights then you just have to step up your game. Plus lore wise knights and titans move from battle to battle so there are many opportunities where they'd be facing forces just by themselves.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Love how Imperials get Daemon Prince level power with more survivability. Even at my FLGS, lately all I see are Slamguinius Captains and Jetbike Shield captains, backed by Knights.

In the meantime, I've been playing Killteam, or 1500 pt games instead. Never thought I'd want to play smaller games of 40k.

Yeah never understood that, whats the point of playing 40k if you have like 10 models on the table. I like to fight with and against armies.

I've had a knight player tell me he only brought knights because he wanted to field as little as possible......that doesn't seem fun.

Well knights are now an army, so I no longer think a knight army is spam, if people want to play knights then you just have to step up your game. Plus lore wise knights and titans move from battle to battle so there are many opportunities where they'd be facing forces just by themselves.

Bit of a double standard to take that attitude. ''Spamming'' Jetbike Captains is a legal way to build a list no matter who calls it cheese or unrealistic, just as Knights are.

And at the end of the day, if your opponent brings something you'd rather not play against, just say "No thanks, some other time" etc. No need to suck it up and do something you don't wanna do.

Spartacus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Love how Imperials get Daemon Prince level power with more survivability. Even at my FLGS, lately all I see are Slamguinius Captains and Jetbike Shield captains, backed by Knights.

In the meantime, I've been playing Killteam, or 1500 pt games instead. Never thought I'd want to play smaller games of 40k.

Yeah never understood that, whats the point of playing 40k if you have like 10 models on the table. I like to fight with and against armies.

I've had a knight player tell me he only brought knights because he wanted to field as little as possible......that doesn't seem fun.

Well knights are now an army, so I no longer think a knight army is spam, if people want to play knights then you just have to step up your game. Plus lore wise knights and titans move from battle to battle so there are many opportunities where they'd be facing forces just by themselves.

Bit of a double standard to take that attitude. ''Spamming'' Jetbike Captains is a legal way to build a list no matter who calls it cheese or unrealistic, just as Knights are.

And at the end of the day, if your opponent brings something you'd rather not play against, just say "No thanks, some other time" etc. No need to suck it up and do something you don't wanna do.

Not really, its the intention, if its fluffy I'm fine with it. Its people that spam/soup just to win and don't care about the lore or realism. I always play whatever lists come my way, makes you a better player, even if you don't win you'll still learn something.

Spartacus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Love how Imperials get Daemon Prince level power with more survivability. Even at my FLGS, lately all I see are Slamguinius Captains and Jetbike Shield captains, backed by Knights.

In the meantime, I've been playing Killteam, or 1500 pt games instead. Never thought I'd want to play smaller games of 40k.

Yeah never understood that, whats the point of playing 40k if you have like 10 models on the table. I like to fight with and against armies.

I've had a knight player tell me he only brought knights because he wanted to field as little as possible......that doesn't seem fun.

Well knights are now an army, so I no longer think a knight army is spam, if people want to play knights then you just have to step up your game. Plus lore wise knights and titans move from battle to battle so there are many opportunities where they'd be facing forces just by themselves.

Bit of a double standard to take that attitude. ''Spamming'' Jetbike Captains is a legal way to build a list no matter who calls it cheese or unrealistic, just as Knights are.

And at the end of the day, if your opponent brings something you'd rather not play against, just say "No thanks, some other time" etc. No need to suck it up and do something you don't wanna do.

there is, IMHOP a differance between spamming jetbikes, which is absolutely fine and no differant from running a White Scars bike list (which OP or UP no one ever thought was objectionable) but I do think spamming bike captains is a little... ehhhh... but I think spamming ANY HQs is bad, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd supporting getting rid of the supreme command detachment

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Not really, its the intention, if its fluffy I'm fine with it. Its people that spam/soup just to win and don't care about the lore or realism. I always play whatever lists come my way, makes you a better player, even if you don't win you'll still learn something.

Not everyone plays with lore/fluff in mind. Some people enjoy winning, more power to them if they can find people willing to play against them.

BrianDavion wrote:

there is, IMHOP a differance between spamming jetbikes, which is absolutely fine and no differant from running a White Scars bike list (which OP or UP no one ever thought was objectionable) but I do think spamming bike captains is a little... ehhhh... but I think spamming ANY HQs is bad, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd supporting getting rid of the supreme command detachment

I dont believe they should change big parts of the game due to some unique interactions. Plenty of people take other variations of supreme command detachments that aren't just 3 jetbikes/slamcaptains. The more choice the better. If shield-captains are such a problem, cap them 0-1 per detachment unless all detachments are custodes.

BrianDavion wrote:

I'd not say OP but you need to get what you pay for. and something that costs 40 points a model SHOULD be pretty damn good.

Pretty sure the cheapest a custodian guard can be is actually 52, once you factor in the weapons.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Haven't fielded three because I don't normally spam or use cheese over realism, and I get along fine with just fielding one and vertus'.

Vertus squads are more powerful than shield captains.

People field 3 captains because that's how many you get in the box and they fit into an easy to soup detachment. In your case, as an actual custodes player with enough bikes to take squads, taking three captains would be a downgrade.

------

For comparative purposes, as an occasional chaos player myself i'd consider the princes better but less consistent. The captains (particularly the first with his relic) sit on a very comfortable middleground whereas princes can be throwing out smites and handfuls of S10 attacks one minute and denied the next.

A.T. wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Haven't fielded three because I don't normally spam or use cheese over realism, and I get along fine with just fielding one and vertus'.

Vertus squads are more powerful than shield captains.

People field 3 captains because that's how many you get in the box and they fit into an easy to soup detachment. In your case, as an actual custodes player with enough bikes to take squads, taking three captains would be a downgrade.

------

For comparative purposes, as an occasional chaos player myself i'd consider the princes better but less consistent. The captains (particularly the first with his relic) sit on a very comfortable middleground whereas princes can be throwing out smites and handfuls of S10 attacks one minute and denied the next.

I don't think that's quite true. The first Captain is usually insanely strong, with relic and trait he is 2+/3++/5+++. Subsequent ones still great, but not as good. Maybe a vanilla captain is comparable to regular bikes point for point... I doubt it still, with all the extra wounds and re-rolls and how few points more it is to be a captain though.

BrianDavion wrote:


I'd not say OP but you need to get what you pay for. and something that costs 40 points a model SHOULD be pretty damn good.

I don't think GW thinks like that, they seem to at random give stuff good or bad rules, and base points costs on some formula I can't pin point, but it seems like it is something along if they think it is elite and not eldar it should cost a lot, if it also has any melee ability it should cost even more.
Sometimes this means marine end up with a 300pts behemoth on a bike that can't get killed, and sometimes it is a GK grand master that costs as much as a jetbike custodes.

I've had a knight player tell me he only brought knights because he wanted to field as little as possible......that doesn't seem fun.

It is better to pay for 10-20 models, then for 200 and then find out that the army is bad, or gets nerfed later on.

Stux wrote:
I don't think that's quite true. The first Captain is usually insanely strong, with relic and trait he is 2+/3++/5+++. Subsequent ones still great, but not as good. Maybe a vanilla captain is comparable to regular bikes point for point... I doubt it still, with all the extra wounds and re-rolls and how few points more it is to be a captain though.

You get two regular bikes with hurricane bolters for 180pts - little more than a single captain.
Twice the firepower, almost twice the close combat attacks, and the entire unit benefits from buffs and stratagems.

Plus you still have that first insanely strong captain, only now he's behind a particularly hard to remove screen.

A.T. wrote:

Stux wrote:
I don't think that's quite true. The first Captain is usually insanely strong, with relic and trait he is 2+/3++/5+++. Subsequent ones still great, but not as good. Maybe a vanilla captain is comparable to regular bikes point for point... I doubt it still, with all the extra wounds and re-rolls and how few points more it is to be a captain though.

You get two regular bikes with hurricane bolters for 180pts - little more than a single captain.
Twice the firepower, almost twice the close combat attacks, and the entire unit benefits from buffs and stratagems.

Plus you still have that first insanely strong captain, only now he's behind a particularly hard to remove screen.

2 captains are running 2+3++ with 2 relics
Running the 3rd dbag is cheaper than any other detachment and they are all untargetable charictors behind some IG screen.

Ice_can wrote:

A.T. wrote:

Stux wrote:
I don't think that's quite true. The first Captain is usually insanely strong, with relic and trait he is 2+/3++/5+++. Subsequent ones still great, but not as good. Maybe a vanilla captain is comparable to regular bikes point for point... I doubt it still, with all the extra wounds and re-rolls and how few points more it is to be a captain though.

You get two regular bikes with hurricane bolters for 180pts - little more than a single captain.
Twice the firepower, almost twice the close combat attacks, and the entire unit benefits from buffs and stratagems.

Plus you still have that first insanely strong captain, only now he's behind a particularly hard to remove screen.

2 captains are running 2+3++ with 2 relics
Running the 3rd dbag is cheaper than any other detachment and they are all untargetable charictors behind some IG screen.

if you're screening jet bikes behind IG infantry you're not utilizing their mobility as much as you could though.

Depends what your facing and turn 2 onwards a dawneagle dbag is strong enough to not need screened as most of the enemy shooting has been degraded to a level that they are going tk struggle to focus down multiple dawneagle dbags without ignoring the rest of the soup.