Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

bibotot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
furthermore Primaris tabletop performance isn't bad AT ALL, if you remember that in real life points don't matter even in table top if you comapre a intercessor marine to a tac marine on a 1 to 1 basis the intercessor is waaay better, combining twice the durability (in real life precisely NO ONE would say "ohh well he sucks, a plasma gun will kill him" that'd say "HOLY gak! I NEEDED A OVER CHARGED PLASMA ROUND JUST TO TAKE THAT SUCKER DOWN!") a intercessor is also MUCH MUCH better in unarmed combat then the tac marine, and has better equipment.

So yeah even if you just look at their table top stats Primaris Marines are pretty impressive.

If tabletop does not reflect the lore, show me one battle where the Primaris Marines win against an odd that completely blow all the old Marines out of the water. Remember there was a single Space Marine who rallied a bunch of primitive humans and empower them with faith, ending up repelling a full scale daemon invasion in the end? What feats have Primaris Marines achieved that normal Space Marines are fully incapable of?

Yeah, a Chaos Marine did something like that too. You don't see them getting an upgraded kit.

I think if GW gave the PMs too many named guys off the bat they would have been a little too Mary-Sue. Remember DA and BA got named Primaris Marines. I think the OP is right that Primaris is a little underdeveloped but hopefully they will fix that. I would like them to do another Crimson Fist type character in that they are a Successor Chapter. Maybe one of these new all Primaris Chapters could be the focus? Pick an Ultima Founding Chapter, give them a named Character, flesh them out a bit. Sort of like they did with Crimson Slaughter for CSM in 6th.

Animus wrote:

bibotot wrote:
But seriously, what is it that makes them better than the regular marines?

They're bigger, stronger, faster and have better technology. They're likely to see a lot more action than the Custodes, and unlike them be comparatively easy to replicate. I've yet to read Blood of Iax, so I'm not sure why Orks would care aside from the fact that they're bigger than the old Marines, but it's easy to see why Chaos fellows and mad flesh crafters like the Haemonculi would want them.

Bigger isn't a benefit, it's a disadvantage. You're a bigger target, less cover will completely protect you, you take up more space to transport and there's less places you can fit. As well as this, they've only really been given better technology, it's not really a reason to be interested in the Primaris and their make-up. But yeah, fair point with "stronger (and) faster".

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Animus wrote:

bibotot wrote:
But seriously, what is it that makes them better than the regular marines?

They're bigger, stronger, faster and have better technology. They're likely to see a lot more action than the Custodes, and unlike them be comparatively easy to replicate. I've yet to read Blood of Iax, so I'm not sure why Orks would care aside from the fact that they're bigger than the old Marines, but it's easy to see why Chaos fellows and mad flesh crafters like the Haemonculi would want them.

Bigger isn't a benefit, it's a disadvantage. You're a bigger target, less cover will completely protect you, you take up more space to transport and there's less places you can fit. As well as this, they've only really been given better technology, it's not really a reason to be interested in the Primaris and their make-up. But yeah, fair point with "stronger (and) faster".

except bigger can be an advantage, you're taller and thus have a longer reach and more leverage. you're also more intimidating.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Animus wrote:

bibotot wrote:
But seriously, what is it that makes them better than the regular marines?

They're bigger, stronger, faster and have better technology. They're likely to see a lot more action than the Custodes, and unlike them be comparatively easy to replicate. I've yet to read Blood of Iax, so I'm not sure why Orks would care aside from the fact that they're bigger than the old Marines, but it's easy to see why Chaos fellows and mad flesh crafters like the Haemonculi would want them.

Bigger isn't a benefit, it's a disadvantage. You're a bigger target, less cover will completely protect you, you take up more space to transport and there's less places you can fit. As well as this, they've only really been given better technology, it's not really a reason to be interested in the Primaris and their make-up. But yeah, fair point with "stronger (and) faster".

except bigger can be an advantage, you're taller and thus have a longer reach and more leverage. you're also more intimidating.

You also fall harder.

I think the primaris need to be depicted just as the normal marines now and in time the depictions will get better. Right now they are trying sell them to us, cash wise and idea wise. It’s like the age of Sigmar. Early stuff on that wasn’t great. But after setting the scene the fiction has got much better now. Because it can focus on the story and less on the setting. Same with primaris.

Andykp wrote:
I think the primaris need to be depicted just as the normal marines now and in time the depictions will get better. Right now they are trying sell them to us, cash wise and idea wise. It’s like the age of Sigmar. Early stuff on that wasn’t great. But after setting the scene the fiction has got much better now. Because it can focus on the story and less on the setting. Same with primaris.

I don't know too much about AoS lore but I feel like the Stormcasts have a lot more room to be interesting than the Primaris do. The costs of the reforging process and people who were, at one time, entirely human becoming less and less human each time they die for their noble cause is interesting, their particularly dangerous relationship with Nagash is interesting. While the Stormcasts have a lot to differentiate themselves from the human warriors of Order there really isn't anything that's different between Primaris and regular marines other than Primaris being Better. The main divide would be the fact that they were designed by Cawl and were in stasis while the chapters developed their cultures; the problem is that this is a divide that if explored further would lead to resentment, mistrust, and possibly heresy which... while quite fun for this Chaos fangirl isn't really something Imperium players would be happy to see, I think.

But soon enough primaris will be just the standard marine as GW won’t feel the need to push them. They will be established so their characters will be as diverse and interesting as current marines. IE not very let them settle in and eventually we will get them depicted just as marines not marines +. The stormcast stuff gets better and better. Wasn’t a huge fan of the AoS setting until read the malign portents short stories and they really got me hooked. Made it seem human and real. And dark.

As far as nids are concerned I dunno, I'd think they would be far more interested in nomming some custodes (and I'm wondering what they'll make out of those!).

BrianDavion wrote:

I suspect we're going to see it expanded slowly, Guy Haley seems to be working at developing Cawl as a character, for example.

"...and he can fly, and he can talk to all animals, and he can shoot lasers out of his hands, and he has a magical horse, and..."

Andykp wrote:
But soon enough primaris will be just the standard marine as GW won’t feel the need to push them. They will be established so their characters will be as diverse and interesting as current marines. IE not very let them settle in and eventually we will get them depicted just as marines not marines +. The stormcast stuff gets better and better. Wasn’t a huge fan of the AoS setting until read the malign portents short stories and they really got me hooked. Made it seem human and real. And dark.

That's kinda my point: if Primaris Marines are treated as being functionally identical to regular Marines in the narrative, then there really is no reason to introduce Primaris in the first place other than to sell new models with statlines more reminiscent of how one would expect Marines to perform. They have to be different to be worth the hype.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
As far as nids are concerned I dunno, I'd think they would be far more interested in nomming some custodes (and I'm wondering what they'll make out of those!).

BrianDavion wrote:

I suspect we're going to see it expanded slowly, Guy Haley seems to be working at developing Cawl as a character, for example.

"...and he can fly, and he can talk to all animals, and he can shoot lasers out of his hands, and he has a magical horse, and..."

Maybe before you make a complete ass of yourself you should read the stories in question? just a suggestion

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Andykp wrote:
But soon enough primaris will be just the standard marine as GW won’t feel the need to push them. They will be established so their characters will be as diverse and interesting as current marines. IE not very let them settle in and eventually we will get them depicted just as marines not marines +. The stormcast stuff gets better and better. Wasn’t a huge fan of the AoS setting until read the malign portents short stories and they really got me hooked. Made it seem human and real. And dark.

That's kinda my point: if Primaris Marines are treated as being functionally identical to regular Marines in the narrative, then there really is no reason to introduce Primaris in the first place other than to sell new models with statlines more reminiscent of how one would expect Marines to perform. They have to be different to be worth the hype.

At the end of the day though they made them to sell models, that’s what they do, it’s the only reason they exist. They played it safe and won’t stray too far away from the traditional marines so they don’t upset the fans. I suppose it’s a matter of taste, I like the models and like that they aren’t really functionally different from old marines. Just bigger and a bit stronger. From what I’ve seen in the fluff is that they are having to prove to the other marines that they are as good as them at least.

bibotot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
furthermore Primaris tabletop performance isn't bad AT ALL, if you remember that in real life points don't matter even in table top if you comapre a intercessor marine to a tac marine on a 1 to 1 basis the intercessor is waaay better, combining twice the durability (in real life precisely NO ONE would say "ohh well he sucks, a plasma gun will kill him" that'd say "HOLY gak! I NEEDED A OVER CHARGED PLASMA ROUND JUST TO TAKE THAT SUCKER DOWN!") a intercessor is also MUCH MUCH better in unarmed combat then the tac marine, and has better equipment.

So yeah even if you just look at their table top stats Primaris Marines are pretty impressive.

If tabletop does not reflect the lore, show me one battle where the Primaris Marines win against an odd that completely blow all the old Marines out of the water. Remember there was a single Space Marine who rallied a bunch of primitive humans and empower them with faith, ending up repelling a full scale daemon invasion in the end? What feats have Primaris Marines achieved that normal Space Marines are fully incapable of?

So you're upset that the newest addition to the 40k lore didn't spring forth having 30 years of crap already written for it? Jeesh, give the authors a chance & check back in 10, 15, 20+ years.

ccs wrote:

bibotot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
furthermore Primaris tabletop performance isn't bad AT ALL, if you remember that in real life points don't matter even in table top if you comapre a intercessor marine to a tac marine on a 1 to 1 basis the intercessor is waaay better, combining twice the durability (in real life precisely NO ONE would say "ohh well he sucks, a plasma gun will kill him" that'd say "HOLY gak! I NEEDED A OVER CHARGED PLASMA ROUND JUST TO TAKE THAT SUCKER DOWN!") a intercessor is also MUCH MUCH better in unarmed combat then the tac marine, and has better equipment.

So yeah even if you just look at their table top stats Primaris Marines are pretty impressive.

If tabletop does not reflect the lore, show me one battle where the Primaris Marines win against an odd that completely blow all the old Marines out of the water. Remember there was a single Space Marine who rallied a bunch of primitive humans and empower them with faith, ending up repelling a full scale daemon invasion in the end? What feats have Primaris Marines achieved that normal Space Marines are fully incapable of?

So you're upset that the newest addition to the 40k lore didn't spring forth having 30 years of crap already written for it? Jeesh, give the authors a chance & check back in 10, 15, 20+ years.

pretty much, you see this everytime a new thing gets added to 40k, partiuclarly space marines, you get a vocal conservitive minority who scream "OMG! CHANGE HOW DARE THEY!" You see thing among a number oif fandoms and it inevitably ends up ruining the franchise for everyone as the people who hold the keys let the franchise die rather then put up with the massive hate fest.

BrianDavion wrote:

except bigger can be an advantage, you're taller and thus have a longer reach and more leverage. you're also more intimidating.

It's also clearly more manly. Striking inspirational poses just doesn't work as well when you're small...


On the other hand, doorways are your enemy.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
As far as nids are concerned I dunno, I'd think they would be far more interested in nomming some custodes (and I'm wondering what they'll make out of those!).

BrianDavion wrote:

I suspect we're going to see it expanded slowly, Guy Haley seems to be working at developing Cawl as a character, for example.

"...and he can fly, and he can talk to all animals, and he can shoot lasers out of his hands, and he has a magical horse, and..."

Ferrus Manus can catch a lascannon shot in his hands and break it. At this point anything is fair play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

except bigger can be an advantage, you're taller and thus have a longer reach and more leverage. you're also more intimidating.

It's also clearly more manly. Striking inspirational poses just doesn't work as well when you're small...


On the other hand, doorways are your enemy.

As someone of the 6' height variety, high shelves are your friend but cars are not. I swear they make cars assuming no one above 5' 4" will ride in them. I can't even imagine how terrible most Imperial buildings and vehicles would be for a Primaris.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Ferrus Manus can catch a lascannon shot in his hands and break it. At this point anything is fair play.

Bad fluff + bad fluff = more bad fluff, not good fluff.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

As someone of the 6' height variety, high shelves are your friend but cars are not. I swear they make cars assuming no one above 5' 4" will ride in them. I can't even imagine how terrible most Imperial buildings and vehicles would be for a Primaris.

I think you've just answered the "why can't Primaris Marines use Rhinos and land raiders" question

The pseudo style gothic buildings tend to favour high roofs so isn’t too bad for primaris.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Ferrus Manus can catch a lascannon shot in his hands and break it. At this point anything is fair play.

Bad fluff + bad fluff = more bad fluff, not good fluff.

No, it becomes so bad it's awesome fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

As someone of the 6' height variety, high shelves are your friend but cars are not. I swear they make cars assuming no one above 5' 4" will ride in them. I can't even imagine how terrible most Imperial buildings and vehicles would be for a Primaris.

I think you've just answered the "why can't Primaris Marines use Rhinos and land raiders" question

Yay?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No, it becomes so bad it's awesome fluff.

That's when you manage to combine the two bad fluff somehow, to make it extra bad. Here it's just bad fluff next to bad fluff, but not combined, sadly.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No, it becomes so bad it's awesome fluff.

That's when you manage to combine the two bad fluff somehow, to make it extra bad. Here it's just bad fluff next to bad fluff, but not combined, sadly.

You clearly don't love B movies as much as I do then.

Seriosuly though, it was more a point that in a universe where we have materials that allow you to smash light....we can't really use our own logic on how things should work.

And B movies is an excellent way of looking at 40k. Let's be clear here, 40k fluff has NEVER been good, it's ALWAYS been campy and over the top and.... that's kinda the point of it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I can't even imagine how terrible most Imperial buildings and vehicles would be for a Primaris.

In fairness, "compact", "restrained", "discrete" and "minimalist" are not adjectives one usually sees applied to classical 40k Imperial architecture.

"Cramped" and "Claustrophobic" are though, especially in terms of hives and ship corridors.

I've always been amused by the thought of those huge great vents Chaos Marines have constantly getting caught on doorways as they try to run through. Primaris will be like the clumsy stormtrooper from A New Hope.

I feel like Primaris may just "Kool-Aid Man" their way through a building in a pinch.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You clearly don't love B movies as much as I do then.

I… doubt it.

 Graphite wrote:
"Cramped" and "Claustrophobic" are though, especially in terms of hives and ship corridors.

I've always been amused by the thought of those huge great vents Chaos Marines have constantly getting caught on doorways as they try to run through. Primaris will be like the clumsy stormtrooper from A New Hope.

Well, even "Imperial Standard" cramped hallways allowed Terminators to move around, a la Space Hulk.

If you read the lore in black library books you'll see that Primaris are superior to standard Astartes, quite clearly.

Why wouldn't you want superior soldiers?

 Ishagu wrote:
If you read the lore in black library books you'll see that Primaris are superior to standard Astartes, quite clearly.

Why wouldn't you want superior soldiers?

Because their super bassy voices emasculate regular Marines?

 Ishagu wrote:
If you read the lore in black library books you'll see that Primaris are superior to standard Astartes, quite clearly.

Why wouldn't you want superior soldiers?

Because for the most part they have been written as incredibly boring. Marines +1 needs a lot to make them compelling.